Developing Commercial Applications in Python

[eeykay@gmail.com]

Hello All,
I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
Thanks for any help.
eeykay

[Craig Ringer]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

On Mon, 2005-01-03 at 19:00, eeykay@gmail.co m wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello All,
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?[/color]

My understanding is that you're dead safe with Python its self, as AFAIK
you can even bundle (possibly modified) the Python sourcecode into your
application. You'd simply need to keep an eye on the licenses of any
extensions you used, like ReportLab, PIL, mx, database interfaces,
twisted, etc. Many are licensed under the same license as Python or an
MIT-like license, but of course some Python extensions are not and you
would need to consider that.

--
Craig Ringer

[It's me]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

Shaw-PTI (www.pti-us.com) uses Python in their software. See:
http://www.pti-us.com/pti/news/index.cfm and search "2004 PSS/E User Group
Meeting"

<eeykay@gmail.c om> wrote in message
news:1104750017 .235937.181370@ c13g2000cwb.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
> Hello All,
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
> Thanks for any help.
> eeykay
>[/color]

[Richards Noah \(IFR LIT MET\)]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

> <eeykay@gmail.c om> wrote in message[color=blue]
> news:1104750017 .235937.181370@ c13g2000cwb.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=green]
> > Hello All,
> > I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> > is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> > good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> > clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> > any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
> > Thanks for any help.
> > eeykay
> >[/color][/color]
"It's me" <itsme@yahoo.co m> wrote in message
news:mBeCd.5832 $5R.1770@newssv r21.news.prodig y.com...[color=blue]
> Shaw-PTI (www.pti-us.com) uses Python in their software. See:
> http://www.pti-us.com/pti/news/index.cfm and search "2004 PSS/E User Group
> Meeting"
>[/color]

Begging your pardon, but a better resource would be the brochure available
(http://www.pti-us.com/PTI/company/brochures/PSSE.pdf). It appears that the
program was probably (originally) written in C/C++ (using MFC for the GUI),
and now employs Python for adding modules and scripting support. Very
interesting stuff :)

[It's me]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python


"Richards Noah (IFR LIT MET)" <Noah.Richards@ infineon.com> wrote in message
news:crbur8$edu $1@athen03.muc. infineon.com...[color=blue]
>
> Begging your pardon, but a better resource would be the brochure available
> (http://www.pti-us.com/PTI/company/brochures/PSSE.pdf). It appears that[/color]
the[color=blue]
> program was probably (originally) written in C/C++ (using MFC for the[/color]
GUI),[color=blue]
> and now employs Python for adding modules and scripting support. Very
> interesting stuff :)
>
>[/color]

It was actually developed in Fortran some 35 years ago. Then migrated to
F77. Then added a C/C++ layer to sit ontop. Then converted to API based.
Then added a Python layer on top.

The only thing unfortunate is that they went with MFC on the newest version.
Yuck!

[Aahz]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

In article <1104750017.235 937.181370@c13g 2000cwb.googleg roups.com>,
<eeykay@gmail.c om> wrote:[color=blue]
>
>I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
>is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
>good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
>clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
>any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?[/color]

Are you looking to embed Python as a scripting language or to write the
software in Python?
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncra ft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"19. A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming,
is not worth knowing." --Alan Perlis

[Richards Noah \(IFR LIT MET\)]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python


"It's me" <itsme@yahoo.co m> wrote in message
news:ozgCd.5867 $5R.2655@newssv r21.news.prodig y.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Richards Noah (IFR LIT MET)" <Noah.Richards@ infineon.com> wrote in[/color]
message[color=blue]
> news:crbur8$edu $1@athen03.muc. infineon.com...[color=green]
> >
> > Begging your pardon, but a better resource would be the brochure[/color][/color]
available[color=blue][color=green]
> > (http://www.pti-us.com/PTI/company/brochures/PSSE.pdf). It appears that[/color]
> the[color=green]
> > program was probably (originally) written in C/C++ (using MFC for the[/color]
> GUI),[color=green]
> > and now employs Python for adding modules and scripting support. Very
> > interesting stuff :)
> >
> >[/color]
>
> It was actually developed in Fortran some 35 years ago. Then migrated to
> F77. Then added a C/C++ layer to sit ontop. Then converted to API[/color]
based.[color=blue]
> Then added a Python layer on top.
>
> The only thing unfortunate is that they went with MFC on the newest[/color]
version.[color=blue]
> Yuck!
>[/color]

Hahaha, sounds like a party to me. And they didn't even throw in a layer of
Lisp for good effort? Too bad, if you ask me :)

[Terry Reedy]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python


<eeykay@gmail.c om> wrote in message
news:1104750017 .235937.181370@ c13g2000cwb.goo glegroups.com.. .[color=blue]
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications.[/color]

We are in a weird catch-22 type situation here. Because the license is so
open, companies that use Python just use it. No payment, no curtesy
registration, no verifiable trace unless they care to disclose (and most
don't).

The license could be paraphrased as "Don't sue us or do anything that would
cause anyone else to sue us and we won't sue you." There is a posted
request for thank you donations but not enough commercial users do so to
even hire one full time programmer, let alone a lawyer (above the bare
minimum required for PSF to legally function). The PSF is about as far
from the RIAA and MPAA as possible.

There are Python Success Stories at the Python site and elsewhere (try
Google on the newsgroup. You could also agree to be responsible for any
legal action initiated by the PSF not due to obvious malfeance, like trying
to register a copyright on the Python source. Or you could suggest that
they purchase a license with a donation to the PSF.

Terry J. Reedy

[It's me]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

Well, now that they are API based, they can easily add any script language
they so wish through SWIG (www.swig.org).

Maybe not LISP. SNOBOL would be the right thing to do. (*NOT*)


"Richards Noah (IFR LIT MET)" <Noah.Richards@ infineon.com> wrote in message
news:crc699$l24 $1@athen03.muc. infineon.com...[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
> > It was actually developed in Fortran some 35 years ago. Then migrated[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> > F77. Then added a C/C++ layer to sit ontop. Then converted to API[/color]
> based.[color=green]
> > Then added a Python layer on top.
> >
> > The only thing unfortunate is that they went with MFC on the newest[/color]
> version.[color=green]
> > Yuck!
> >[/color]
>
> Hahaha, sounds like a party to me. And they didn't even throw in a layer[/color]
of[color=blue]
> Lisp for good effort? Too bad, if you ask me :)
>
>[/color]

[vincent wehren]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

eeykay@gmail.co m wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello All,
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
> Thanks for any help.
> eeykay[/color]

At CSB-System AG, we use Python extensively as embedded scripting
language throughout the ERP system we develop (fields of application:
system automation, GUI scripting, programmable user exits, reporting,
data access/replication, autotests, and apart from that, everywhere we
need something done fast ;-).

I'm sure that its liberal license was among the main drivers to use it
in the first place!

--
Vincent Wehren

[Stephen Waterbury]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

It's me wrote:[color=blue]
> Shaw-PTI (www.pti-us.com) uses Python in their software.[/color]

.... but the "Python Powered" logo is conspicuous by its
absence from their site. Too bad that some commercial
exploiters of Python don't advertise that fact more often.
Every little bit helps!

Steve

[Roy Smith]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

Stephen Waterbury <stephen.c.wate rbury@nasa.gov> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Shaw-PTI (www.pti-us.com) uses Python in their software.[/color]
>
>... but the "Python Powered" logo is conspicuous by its
>absence from their site. Too bad that some commercial
>exploiters of Python don't advertise that fact more often.[/color]

Companies use all sorts of technologies to produce their products. I
have no idea who Shaw-PTI is or what they do, but I'm sure they also
use other languages, and web servers, and operating systems, and
telephones and office furniture and pencil sharpeners. They're all
just tools. You don't expect a company to waste space on their web
site advertising which brand of pencil sharpener they use, so why
would you expect they would do so for a programming language?

Sometimes you see web sites with "Powered by IBM" or "Powered by Sun"
or whatever. I'm sure behind every one of those is a deal cut with
the supplier to promote their name in return for some favorable terms
on a contract.

[Steve Holden]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

eeykay@gmail.co m wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hello All,
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
> Thanks for any help.
> eeykay
>[/color]
No. The Python license explicitly allows you to distribute derived works
(i.e. Python applications including the standard compiler, or modified
versions of the compiler) without obliging you to disclose the source
code in the way that the GPL does.

The only obligation the license places on you are

a) You must retain the original copyright notices and
b) If you *do* distribute modified versions, you must include a brief
description of your modifications.

I believe the Python License Version 2, as found at

http://www.python.org/moin/PythonSoftwareFoundationLicenseV2Easy

is about as simple as a license can get, yet still the Foundation
receives inquiries from people whose lawyers are unconvinced there are
no hidden problems. Of course, IANAL, so the lawyers could be right, but
at least the INTENT is pretty obvious.

Also beware if you plan to use "The Python License" for your own
software, and read

http://www.python.org/moin/PythonSoftwareFoundationLicenseFaq

if you are thinking of doing so. Of course, there are many contributions
which were licensed to the Foundation for inclusion in the distribution.
The Foundation is currently in the process of regularizing the "license
stack" thus created, by negotiating with individual contributors to
ensure that a compatible license is initially granted to the PSF.

Nothing is currently believed to prohibit the Foundation from licensing
current releases on the terms that it does, but I should include a
disclaimer that this is *not* an official statement from the
Foundation, rather an explanation from one of its directors (an
all-too-fallible human being) about what's lately been happening in the
licensing space.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119

[Christophe Cavalaria]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

eeykay@gmail.co m wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hello All,
> I am trying to convince my client to use Python in his new product. He
> is worried about the license issues. Can somebody there to point me any
> good commercial applications developed using python ?. The licence
> clearly says Python can be used for commercial applications. Is there
> any other implications like that of GPL to make the source open ?
> Thanks for any help.
> eeykay[/color]
Troika games use Python in their games. It seems you can even get the
source .py files for Vampires: Bloodlines :)

[Mike Meyer]

Re: Developing Commercial Applications in Python

"It's me" <itsme@yahoo.co m> writes:
[color=blue]
> Well, now that they are API based, they can easily add any script language
> they so wish through SWIG (www.swig.org).
>
> Maybe not LISP. SNOBOL would be the right thing to do. (*NOT*)[/color]

SWIG generates wrappers for GUILE, which is Scheme, which looks enough
like LISP to fool most people. It's the GNU extensible embeddable
language.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.or g> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.