Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

**Paul Rubin** · Jul 18 '05, 07:06 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Bulba! <bulba@bulba.co m> writes:[color=blue]
> I'll soon start development of a specialized small app and need
> to choose GUI for it.
>
> I have narrowed the choice to wxPython/PythonCard and QT/PyQT[/color]

What does the app need to do? I'd try to make it web based unless
there's a good reason not to. That's even if it just runs on the
user's desktop; run the http listener on the localhost and let the
user connect to it with a browser.

However, between those two you mention, wxPython seems easier to use
and runs on more platforms. On the other hand, it may be less well
maintained than QT. For example, its current installation script
seems to assume an older version of GTK is installed, and it fails
with newer GTK versions.

**Diez B. Roggisch** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

> I have narrowed the choice to wxPython/PythonCard and QT/PyQT[color=blue]
> (buying commercial licenses is not a big problem, the company
> would pay for it).
>
> Which is better for this kind of application? I mean, looking
> from purely technological and long-term development aspects
> and ignoring licensing issues:
>
> - QT seems to be industrial-strength, but.. it's probably
> more complex/difficult to use.
>
> - wxPython/PythonCard is probably simple to use, but..
> are there not some pitfalls that development will fall
> into once the app starts growing (they all do)?[/color]

If you can spend the money, I'd certainly go for qt. I just created a
mid-size gui app with it, and it simply rocks. The designer is really cool,
and the whole framework is thouroughly designed and works (so far) flawless
for me. Also the signal-slot mechanism makes implementation of a MVC
pattern pretty easy.

But I have to admit that I don't have larger expierience with wx. Try
googling this newsgroup, there have been plenty of discussions on this.

As you can qt for free on linux, you could try both and see what suits your
needs best.

--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

**Steve Holden** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Paul Rubin wrote:
[color=blue]
> Bulba! <bulba@bulba.co m> writes:
>[color=green]
>>I'll soon start development of a specialized small app and need
>>to choose GUI for it.
>>
>>I have narrowed the choice to wxPython/PythonCard and QT/PyQT[/color]
>
>
> What does the app need to do? I'd try to make it web based unless
> there's a good reason not to. That's even if it just runs on the
> user's desktop; run the http listener on the localhost and let the
> user connect to it with a browser.
>[/color]
I'm not sure I'd agree with this advice. It's easier than it used to be
to put a good-looking web interface together, but considerably more
difficult still than using either wxPython or PyQT. The web is still
clunky for certain types of interaction, as you either have to
completely redisplay after a server round-trip or closely co-ordinate
client-side code to keep some interactions local to the client. This is
a difficult compromise, and requires a lot of experience.
[color=blue]
> However, between those two you mention, wxPython seems easier to use
> and runs on more platforms. On the other hand, it may be less well
> maintained than QT. For example, its current installation script
> seems to assume an older version of GTK is installed, and it fails
> with newer GTK versions.[/color]

Both packages are maintained be people who know what they are doing.
wxPython has had its issues over the years, but many of those have (I
believe) been due to the instability of the underlying wxWindows (no
wxWidgets) package, which in turn has often been due to the introduction
of serious chunks of new functionality.

Personally I think that the choice may well come down to which API is
closest to what Bulba has used in the past.

Both kits are well capable of handling everything a serious programmer
would want to do. I personally think that wxPython gets closest to the
native look-and-feel of the windowing platform, but that may just be my
limited experience speaking.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
Holden Web LLC +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119

**Bulba!** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On 20 Dec 2004 04:43:06 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalid> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> I'll soon start development of a specialized small app and need
>> to choose GUI for it.
>>
>> I have narrowed the choice to wxPython/PythonCard and QT/PyQT[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>What does the app need to do?[/color]

Basically, it's for a "data-entry monkey" and/or PM - check if this
task has been done, possibly edit some data. Once task is closed,
move it to the invoicing module and add the task's data to the
semi-final invoice.
[color=blue]
>I'd try to make it web based unless
>there's a good reason not to.[/color]

Reason 1: It would be somewhat complex to develop it using
PHP (I have done some recon in that area) and using GUI
on Windows is actually faster way of entering and editing data
than via the Web browser I think.

Reason 2: I don't want to learn yet another language
just for this app and want to avoid integration problems
as we plan to develop yet another application for other workers
that would connect to the common DB and sent the data directly
for that accounting app.

ZOPE could provide the workaround but ZOPE seems really huge to
me and an overkill for this. Or maybe it would work?
[color=blue]
>That's even if it just runs on the
>user's desktop; run the http listener on the localhost and let the
>user connect to it with a browser.[/color]
[color=blue]
>However, between those two you mention, wxPython seems easier to use
>and runs on more platforms. On the other hand, it may be less well
>maintained than QT. For example, its current installation script
>seems to assume an older version of GTK is installed, and it fails
>with newer GTK versions.[/color]

I will consider that, thanks for prompt reply!

--
It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association.

**Bulba!** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 08:03:38 -0500, Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Personally I think that the choice may well come down to which API is
>closest to what Bulba has used in the past.[/color]

Well I haven't used any of them - I only plan to start learning and
using GUI toolkits. Hence the question, precisely because I know that
once I get into particular toolkit, it's going to stay with me for a
long time.
[color=blue]
>Both kits are well capable of handling everything a serious programmer
>would want to do.[/color]

...and that is one of important things that I needed to know. Thanks.

BTW, do you have any experience with how respective GUI builders
actually work? QT Designer seems great and people seem to use
it in industry, but how useful is PythonCard useful in real-world app
development?

--
It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association.

**Paul Rubin** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
> > What does the app need to do? I'd try to make it web based unless
> > there's a good reason not to. That's even if it just runs on the
> > user's desktop; run the http listener on the localhost and let the
> > user connect to it with a browser.[/color]
>
> I'm not sure I'd agree with this advice. It's easier than it used to
> be to put a good-looking web interface together, but considerably more
> difficult still than using either wxPython or PyQT.[/color]

I think I can put together a useable (but not visually stunning) web
interface faster than I can put together any pure client-side
interface. Making the web interface look really good might be harder
than making wx or QT look really good, but for lots of applications,
"useable" is good enough.
[color=blue]
> The web is still clunky for certain types of interaction, as you
> either have to completely redisplay after a server round-trip or
> closely co-ordinate client-side code to keep some interactions local
> to the client.[/color]

True, and applications that can't stand that redisplay are an example
of a good reason not to use a web interface. But for many apps, the
redisplay is ok. And a little client-side JS here or there isn't
THAT hard to deal with and can help a lot.
[color=blue]
> Both packages are maintained be people who know what they are
> doing. wxPython has had its issues over the years, but many of those
> have (I believe) been due to the instability of the underlying
> wxWindows (no wxWidgets) package, which in turn has often been due to
> the introduction of serious chunks of new functionality.[/color]

Fair enough, but we have to consider wxPython to encompass the whole
suite including wxWidgets and GTK and whatever.

For functionality purposes I've found tkinter to be adequate so far,
but it sure doesn't look as nice on the screen as the other packages.

**Paul Rubin** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Bulba! <bulba@bulba.co m> writes:[color=blue]
> BTW, do you have any experience with how respective GUI builders
> actually work? QT Designer seems great and people seem to use
> it in industry, but how useful is PythonCard useful in real-world app
> development?[/color]

I'd use Glade if I could.

**Paul Rubin** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Bulba! <bulba@bulba.co m> writes:[color=blue]
> Reason 1: It would be somewhat complex to develop it using
> PHP (I have done some recon in that area) and using GUI
> on Windows is actually faster way of entering and editing data
> than via the Web browser I think.[/color]

Well, I was concentrating more on implementation hassle. But I
was thinking in terms of Python, not PHP.
[color=blue]
> ZOPE could provide the workaround but ZOPE seems really huge to
> me and an overkill for this. Or maybe it would work?[/color]

Zope seems huge to me too. I'd just use a Python cgi, optionally with
one of the simpler Python template libraries. Just try to keep things
simple, and never allow access except to authorized, trusted users
(i.e. don't run the app on the open internet without SSL and login
authentication) and you won't have to worry too much about security.

**Carlos Ribeiro** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:20:43 +0100, Bulba! <bulba@bulba.co m> wrote:[color=blue]
> On 20 Dec 2004 04:43:06 -0800, Paul Rubin[color=green]
> >I'd try to make it web based unless
> >there's a good reason not to.[/color]
>
> Reason 1: It would be somewhat complex to develop it using
> PHP (I have done some recon in that area) and using GUI
> on Windows is actually faster way of entering and editing data
> than via the Web browser I think.
>
> Reason 2: I don't want to learn yet another language
> just for this app and want to avoid integration problems
> as we plan to develop yet another application for other workers
> that would connect to the common DB and sent the data directly
> for that accounting app.[/color]

Two good reasons indeed. There are some types of data entry tasks that
don't map well to the browser. Rich grid style data entry just comes
to mind, it requires a ton of Javascript code, not to mention XMLRPC,
if you want it to be dynamic and responsive. But if the data entry
forms are simple, I recommend you to check some lightweight approaches
for Web development in Python. I personally used CherryPy
(www.cherrypy.org); you can also check Quixote or Snakelets. All three
are much lighter than Zope. CherryPy in particular is extremely light
and easy to work with, and includes a reasonably powerful embedded
Python-based webserver; it's not Apache, but it's much easier to set
up. And all three options are free.

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: carribeiro@gmai l.com
mail: carribeiro@yaho o.com

RM · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

Here is another question, are you deploying in Linux, Windows, Mac, or
some combination of these? I think that may be a big factor to
consider. I do like the look of Qt under Linux, however, I have never
seen it under Windows. Qt seems to be very focused in Linux, with Mac
and Windows support as a reluctant afterthought.

I have used wxPython and PythonCard under Windows and Linux. Under
Windows, both of these are excellent, and allow you to do some very
nice looking apps. I love the way PythonCard separates the interface
code from the rest of the app functionality. PythonCard is a pleasure
to use. It is not quite finished, but its developers are now in the
final stretch towards the final 1.0 version.

In Python, when you run into its speed limitations, you may have to
resort to writing pure C. Similarly, when you run into a widget
limitation in PythonCard, you may have to resort to pure wxPython code.
In both cases, the advantages of using Python and PythonCard, will
usualy make it worth living with their limitations.

-Ruben

**Bulba!** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:37:23 -0200, Carlos Ribeiro
<carribeiro@gma il.com> wrote:
But if the data entry[color=blue]
>forms are simple, I recommend you to check some lightweight approaches
>for Web development in Python. I personally used CherryPy
>(www.cherrypy.org); you can also check Quixote or Snakelets. All three
>are much lighter than Zope. CherryPy in particular is extremely light
>and easy to work with, and includes a reasonably powerful embedded
>Python-based webserver; it's not Apache, but it's much easier to set
>up. And all three options are free.[/color]

"Your CherryPy powered web applications are in fact stand-alone Python
applications embedding their own web server. You can deploy them
anywhere you can run Python applications." - cool!!

Python is getting damn serious contender in dev arena I see...

--
It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association.

**Bulba!** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On 20 Dec 2004 05:36:48 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalid> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Zope seems huge to me too. I'd just use a Python cgi, optionally with
>one of the simpler Python template libraries. Just try to keep things
>simple, and never allow access except to authorized, trusted users
>(i.e. don't run the app on the open internet without SSL and login
>authentication ) and you won't have to worry too much about security.[/color]

Right, and this way I could keep Python, DB of my choice, have
a Web interface for accounting (if accounting aspect is kept limited
enough to make it practical it) and still connect that another app via
the internet to Pythonic environment.

--
It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association.

**Bulba!** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

On 20 Dec 2004 05:53:03 -0800, "RM" <ny_r_marquez@y ahoo.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Here is another question, are you deploying in Linux, Windows, Mac, or
>some combination of these? I think that may be a big factor to
>consider. I do like the look of Qt under Linux, however, I have never
>seen it under Windows. Qt seems to be very focused in Linux, with Mac
>and Windows support as a reluctant afterthought.[/color]

Server will run on Linux, clients on Windows (all those Windows
apps that workers typically use...). We're not excluding possible
deployment of some specialized workstations on Linux only,
however (thus one of the reasons for considering either wxWindows
or QT is that they're cross-platform).
[color=blue]
>I have used wxPython and PythonCard under Windows and Linux. Under
>Windows, both of these are excellent, and allow you to do some very
>nice looking apps. I love the way PythonCard separates the interface
>code from the rest of the app functionality.[/color]

That's a strong pro, I don't like aspects of various problems
intertwining too much in a particular place in a program, I like to
keep them separate (that's one reason I don't like PHP very much,
where the "business logic" naturally wants to be "mixed" with PHP
with HTML over the whole damn place - maybe it's possible to
keep all those separate in PHP but I don't see convenient ways of
doing that).
[color=blue]
>PythonCard is a pleasure
>to use. It is not quite finished, but its developers are now in the
>final stretch towards the final 1.0 version.[/color]

Too much of a good thing I guess. :-) Now the choice between
GUIs is harder for me instead of it being easier. ;-) But it's great
to know that Python can be used for serious GUI and other development,
it seems like it's not going to die...
[color=blue]
>In Python, when you run into its speed limitations, you may have to
>resort to writing pure C.[/color]

That's not an issue here, as I obviously am not going to write my
own DB server and I don't think accounting programming really
needs the speed of C.
[color=blue]
>Similarly, when you run into a widget
>limitation in PythonCard, you may have to resort to pure wxPython code.[/color]

Hmm.. and if I may ask, what limitations you have stumbled on?

--
It's a man's life in a Python Programming Association.

**Phil Thompson** · Jul 18 '05, 07:07 PM

Re: Best GUI for small-scale accounting app?

> Here is another question, are you deploying in Linux, Windows, Mac, or[color=blue]
> some combination of these? I think that may be a big factor to
> consider. I do like the look of Qt under Linux, however, I have never
> seen it under Windows. Qt seems to be very focused in Linux, with Mac
> and Windows support as a reluctant afterthought.[/color]

Sorry, I can't let such an uninformed statement pass without some sort of
comment. While Qt is probably installed on more Linux desktops than
Windows desktops (because of KDE), Trolltech sell more Windows licenses
than Linux/UNIX licenses. One of the main points of Qt is that it runs
equally well on all platforms.

To the OP, get wxPython and PyQt/Qt for Windows, try them both out and go
with the one that best fits your criteria. There are free, fully
functional, evaluation versions of both Qt and PyQt.

Phil

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