Python Webstart ?

**Thomas Guettler** · Jul 18 '05, 03:31 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Am Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:43:04 +1000 schrieb huy:
[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar to
> Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python. I
> would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment (and
> long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and py2exe
> just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]

Hi,

what does webstart do?

Thomas

**Istvan Albert** · Jul 18 '05, 03:31 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Thomas Guettler wrote:
[color=blue]
> what does webstart do?[/color]

nothing useful, and that's why there is no such beast for python.

Istvan.

**Carlos Ribeiro** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:43:04 +1000, huy <nytimes@swiftd sl.com.au> wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar to
> Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python. I
> would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment (and
> long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and py2exe
> just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]

I sincerely don't understand why a Python Webstart would be more
useful than pyfreeze and py2exe. If you're talking about some way for
people to test your application without the need to install it, I can
get it, but still I don't think that it's worth it. Remember -- the
JVM is a near standard part of modern browsers, so it's relatively
safe to assume that a lot of people (those using modern GUI browsers)
will be able to test your program. But the Python VM is not designed
to work like that; in the end, the user still would need to download
some client library (a PyVM-plugin for browsers of sorts), which
pretty much defeats the point of the Python Webstart.

If you *really* want to program in Python and have it working with
Webstart, why not do it using Jython? Once compiled, a Jython program
is undistinguishab le from a Java app -- both are meant to run under
the JVM. I don't know if anyone did it before, but running Jython
programs as Webstart applications should be possible, if not
automatic.

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: carribeiro@gmai l.com
mail: carribeiro@yaho o.com

**huy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Carlos Ribeiro wrote:[color=blue]
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:43:04 +1000, huy <nytimes@swiftd sl.com.au> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Hi,
>>
>>Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar to
>>Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python. I
>>would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment (and
>>long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and py2exe
>>just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]
>
>
> I sincerely don't understand why a Python Webstart would be more
> useful than pyfreeze and py2exe. If you're talking about some way for
> people to test your application without the need to install it, I can
> get it, but still I don't think that it's worth it. Remember -- the
> JVM is a near standard part of modern browsers, so it's relatively
> safe to assume that a lot of people (those using modern GUI browsers)
> will be able to test your program. But the Python VM is not designed
> to work like that; in the end, the user still would need to download
> some client library (a PyVM-plugin for browsers of sorts), which
> pretty much defeats the point of the Python Webstart.[/color]

Well not really. I don't mind doing one installation of a (Python/Java)
webstart. However, it's the automatic update of the actual application
software which I find most useful. The alternative using p2exe or
pyfreeze will require me to distribute the (potentially large) binaries
manually. For hundreds of terminals, this is not gonna be good,
especially in an iterative environment.
[color=blue]
> If you *really* want to program in Python and have it working with
> Webstart, why not do it using Jython? Once compiled, a Jython program
> is undistinguishab le from a Java app -- both are meant to run under
> the JVM. I don't know if anyone did it before, but running Jython
> programs as Webstart applications should be possible, if not
> automatic.[/color]

That's an option but I don't quite trust using jython for a full blown
application. I use it mainly for unittesting at the moment.

Thanks for the feedback,

Huy

**John Fabiani** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Thomas Guettler wrote:
[color=blue]
> Am Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:43:04 +1000 schrieb huy:
>[color=green]
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar to
>> Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python. I
>> would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment (and
>> long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and py2exe
>> just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]
>
> Hi,
>
> what does webstart do?
>
> Thomas[/color]
Actually it's very useful. In the Java world you can set a central location
that a webstart program checks for possible updates. It's very cool.
John

**Jorge Godoy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

huy <nytimes@swiftd sl.com.au> writes:
[color=blue]
> Well not really. I don't mind doing one installation of a
> (Python/Java) webstart. However, it's the automatic update of the
> actual application software which I find most useful. The alternative
> using p2exe or pyfreeze will require me to distribute the (potentially
> large) binaries manually. For hundreds of terminals, this is not gonna
> be good, especially in an iterative environment.[/color]

A network drive is not an option? I use that with several software. I
just update one copy and everybody has an updated copy of the software
the next time they run it.

What I miss is the option to update the already running clients when
they instantiate the class again, but then, this would probably include
performance penalties when there are no changes.
[color=blue]
> That's an option but I don't quite trust using jython for a full blown
> application. I use it mainly for unittesting at the moment.[/color]

Have you found any problems with it? I think that some missing CPython
modules prevented me to give it more attention, but now I don't even
remember which ones... :-(

--
Godoy. <godoy@ieee.org >

**Istvan Albert** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

John Fabiani wrote:
[color=blue]
> Actually it's very useful. In the Java world you can set a central location
> that a webstart program checks for possible updates. It's very cool.[/color]

Only that it doesn't really work in practice. Read more here:

http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/ar...004_07_09.html

Istvan

**John Fabiani** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Jorge Godoy wrote:
[color=blue]
> huy <nytimes@swiftd sl.com.au> writes:
>[color=green]
>> Well not really. I don't mind doing one installation of a
>> (Python/Java) webstart. However, it's the automatic update of the
>> actual application software which I find most useful. The alternative
>> using p2exe or pyfreeze will require me to distribute the (potentially
>> large) binaries manually. For hundreds of terminals, this is not gonna
>> be good, especially in an iterative environment.[/color]
>
> A network drive is not an option? I use that with several software. I
> just update one copy and everybody has an updated copy of the software
> the next time they run it.[/color]

Of course the problem with using a network drive is the size of the file
that is download everytime the program is run.

John

**John Fabiani** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Istvan Albert wrote:
[color=blue]
> John Fabiani wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually it's very useful. In the Java world you can set a central
>> location
>> that a webstart program checks for possible updates. It's very cool.[/color]
>
> Only that it doesn't really work in practice. Read more here:
>
> http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/ar...004_07_09.html
>
>
> Istvan[/color]
I agree it's not perfect - but I still think it's cool. I have only one
site that is using webstart. It took about a week to get everyone up to
speed and now it has worked like clock work for about a year.
John

**Daniel Dittmar** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

huy wrote:[color=blue]
> Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar to
> Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python. I
> would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment (and
> long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and py2exe
> just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]

One quick solution would be to install a cvs client together with
python. This would update just those files that have changed. Your
clients could even rollback to an earlier release should there be any
problems.

It doesn't have to be cvs. Some of the newer source code control systems
have the ability to update through HTTP, should there be some
restrictions because of a firewall.

A command line client would be quite enough as you would be calling it
from your program anyway. There is no need for your clients to learn
anything about it.

Daniel

**huy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Jorge Godoy wrote:[color=blue]
> huy <nytimes@swiftd sl.com.au> writes:
>
>[color=green]
>>Well not really. I don't mind doing one installation of a
>>(Python/Java) webstart. However, it's the automatic update of the
>>actual application software which I find most useful. The alternative
>>using p2exe or pyfreeze will require me to distribute the (potentially
>>large) binaries manually. For hundreds of terminals, this is not gonna
>>be good, especially in an iterative environment.[/color]
>
>
> A network drive is not an option? I use that with several software. I
> just update one copy and everybody has an updated copy of the software
> the next time they run it.
>
> What I miss is the option to update the already running clients when
> they instantiate the class again, but then, this would probably include
> performance penalties when there are no changes.
>[/color]

It's not really a an option because the users are spread out across
multiple sites and are only accessible via http or email. Before someone
suggests a web app, this is not really an option either due to the type
of application.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>That's an option but I don't quite trust using jython for a full blown
>>application . I use it mainly for unittesting at the moment.[/color]
>
>
> Have you found any problems with it? I think that some missing CPython
> modules prevented me to give it more attention, but now I don't even
> remember which ones... :-([/color]

I haven't found any problems with it. It works great with httpunit which
is how I'm using it at the moment. However, the community doesn't seem
as active so I'd rather stick to the CPython for my main apps. With Java
5 coming + better external tools eg. spring framework, swixml, I find
things like Jython are losing more of their edge.

Huy

**huy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Istvan Albert wrote:
[color=blue]
> John Fabiani wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually it's very useful. In the Java world you can set a central
>> location
>> that a webstart program checks for possible updates. It's very cool.[/color]
>
>
> Only that it doesn't really work in practice. Read more here:
>
> http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/ar...004_07_09.html
>
>
> Istvan[/color]

Thanks for the link Istvan. The article is very informative, but I'm
afraid I've used JWS extensively without such troubles. It's all about
training and managing user expectation. We had a very smooth rollout and
seamless upgrades now are paying many times over for the initial
investment in particular management of the initial installation.

Read the comments, there are some great tips on making it work. As I
said in my other posts. It isn't the initial automated installation
which is most important to me, but the longer term automatic upgrading
(which happens much more frequent over the years).

Huy

**huy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

John Fabiani wrote:
[color=blue]
> Istvan Albert wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>John Fabiani wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Actually it's very useful. In the Java world you can set a central
>>>location
>>>that a webstart program checks for possible updates. It's very cool.[/color]
>>
>>Only that it doesn't really work in practice. Read more here:
>>
>>http://www.dynamicobjects.com/d2r/ar...004_07_09.html
>>
>>
>>Istvan[/color]
>
> I agree it's not perfect - but I still think it's cool. I have only one
> site that is using webstart. It took about a week to get everyone up to
> speed and now it has worked like clock work for about a year.
> John[/color]

Good stuff John. That's my experience as well. I think you don't see how
useful it is until you experience a project which knows how to use it well.

Huy

**huy** · Jul 18 '05, 03:32 PM

Re: Python Webstart ?

Daniel Dittmar wrote:
[color=blue]
> huy wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Just wondering if there were any plans (or existing projects) similar
>> to Java webstart for Python. I think this would be a boon for python.
>> I would love to start my new project using Python but the deployment
>> (and long term upgrading) factor is a major itch which pyfreeze and
>> py2exe just doesn't scratch properly.[/color]
>
>
> One quick solution would be to install a cvs client together with
> python. This would update just those files that have changed. Your
> clients could even rollback to an earlier release should there be any
> problems.
>
> It doesn't have to be cvs. Some of the newer source code control systems
> have the ability to update through HTTP, should there be some
> restrictions because of a firewall.
>
> A command line client would be quite enough as you would be calling it
> from your program anyway. There is no need for your clients to learn
> anything about it.
>
> Daniel[/color]

Great idea Daniel. An SVN client would work well. I'll think about it
for a while but I think this would be a real option.

Huy

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