Server/OS/Dev environment

[Jean]

Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn. I've browsed many
postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
began investigating this problem.

I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?

To develop such a site, should I be using Vim? Idle? Or Windows gui
software? Install MySQL & Python on Windows? Stick with Linux?

A multitude of choices is great for the gurus, but not necessarily so
for a newbie...

Thanks for any comments,
Jean

[Pm]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

Jean wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn. I've browsed many
> postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
> development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
> began investigating this problem.
>
> I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
> What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
> mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?
>
> To develop such a site, should I be using Vim? Idle? Or Windows gui
> software? Install MySQL & Python on Windows? Stick with Linux?
>
> A multitude of choices is great for the gurus, but not necessarily so
> for a newbie...
>
> Thanks for any comments,
> Jean[/color]

Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)

To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
:-))
Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
(http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)

Best,
Pm
--
E-mail: base64.decodest ring('cHJpc3pAY XN5bHVtdGVsLmNv bQ==\n')

[Jean]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

Pm <Miklos@nowhere .hu> wrote in message news:<c8n2gt$4s i$1@news.epidc. co.kr>...[color=blue]
> Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
> I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
> you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
> awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
>
> To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
> :-))
> Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
> (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
>
> Best,
> Pm[/color]

Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)

Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.

So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?

Regards,
Jean

[Ray Cote]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

>Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn.
Welcome!
[color=blue]
> I've browsed many
>postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
>development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
>began investigating this problem.[/color]
Languages, text editors, mail clients..., it all comes down to
personal preferences and precisely what you need to do. Probably need
to look around at a variety of tools.
[color=blue]
>I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
>What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
>mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?[/color]

I found it easy to get started with Snakelets
<snakelets.sour ceforge.net/>
and CherryPy
<www.cherrypy.o rg/>

These are easy to install and get started with.
I'm also a fairly newbie Python programmer and simply did not have
the time to wrap my thoughts around large environments like Twisted
or Zope. Snakelets and CherryPy were a good start for me.

Python and MySQL run just about anywhere so the 'best' platform is
probably whatever you have in front of you.

For myself, my development platform tends to be Mac OS X with the
BBEdit text editor.
Deployment tends to be on variants of Linux, BSD, Mac OS X, and Windows.
Databases tend to be: Oracle, Firebird, PostgreSQL, and MySQL.


--Ray

--

Raymond Cote
Appropriate Solutions, Inc.
PO Box 458 ~ Peterborough, NH 03458-0458
Phone: 603.924.6079 ~ Fax: 603.924.8668
rgacote(at)Appr opriateSolution s.com

https://www.AppropriateSolutions.com

[Pm]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

Jean wrote:
[color=blue]
> Pm <Miklos@nowhere .hu> wrote in message
> news:<c8n2gt$4s i$1@news.epidc. co.kr>...[color=green]
>> Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
>> I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
>> you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
>> awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
>>
>> To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
>> :-))
>> Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
>> (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
>>
>> Best,
>> Pm[/color]
>
> Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)
>
> Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
> keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
> my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
> will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
> wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.
>
> So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?
>
> Regards,
> Jean[/color]

Well, right now I'm struggling with Zope (and there's a PostgreSQL database
in the pot as well, though you wouldn't need a relational database with
quite a few webapps when you go the Zope way)
What I like about it is that it's so powerful/feature rich.
What I don't like it's hectic development roadmap and some idiosyncrasies.
The worst is that you don't have a complete text based representation of
your work, ie. some things are stored in the object oriented database only
(which you can export as XML but that's no use)
This is issue is to be addressed in the upcoming Zope3 version, a complete
rewrite, actually a whole different world. :(
Also, the somewhat steep learning curve is a problem.
So have a look and try to find out if you can put up with Zope now.

I gave Webware (and Albatross) a try, too. They are nice clean Pythonic
environments.
I like the server side sessioning about Albatross very much.
CherryPy, like Ray suggested, is also great to put low/moderate complexity
site online. Maybe I'm saying this only because now I'm terrified to
think of how much work it'd take to build a portal site like you can easily
do with Plone.. http://www.plone.org
Plone is another layer on CMF which is another (portal) layer
(http://cmf.zope.org/ ) on top of Zope... phew.
Maybe go get Plone and install on your Linux/Windows machine. That part is
very easy. :-)

So other-than-Zope solutions (mod_python?) rulez but
somehow money has always been in Zope so far for me. ;)
I guess that's because complex webapps/portals are easier/much less work to
build with Zope.


Best,
Miklós


--
E-mail: base64.decodest ring('cHJpc3pAY XN5bHVtdGVsLmNv bQ==\n')

[Ryan Paul]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:16:40 -0700, Jean wrote:
[color=blue]
> Pm <Miklos@nowhere .hu> wrote in message news:<c8n2gt$4s i$1@news.epidc. co.kr>[color=green]
>> Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
>> I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
>> you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
>> awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
>>
>> To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
>> :-))
>> Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
>> (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
>>
>> Best,
>> Pm[/color]
>
> Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)
>
> Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
> keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
> my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
> will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
> wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.
>
> So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?
>
> Regards,
> Jean[/color]

zope is like the panacea for an illness that nobody has, but everybody
has symptoms of. Zope is incredibly impressive, incredibly powerful, it
does everything, it is brilliantly designed, but it requires immense
amounts of time and patience to figure out how to employ it effectively,
and customizing it to fit your needs will usually take more time than it
would take to construct something from scratch. There are, however,
numerous content management engines constructed on top of zope that fit
more specific needs, and can be customized for what you want with
relatively little sweat/blood. Plone is an excellent example.

If you can find a Zope product that fits your needs, use it, but if you
cant, you probably dont want to invest the time it would take to make one
yourself. (i'm sure you have figured that out if you have glanced at the
zope documentation yourself.)

mod_python is great! I have had quite a bit of success using mod_python
and some xml/xsl related python libraries. I like to use xml and xslt for
my templating. I put python code in my xml files, and use a little
pre-processor I threw together to process it. You might want to check out
http://sqlobject.org/ which makes database access, construction, and
manipulation a lot more pythonic.

If you need an extendable web application framework (for writing
client/server apps etc) you might want to check out the Twistd framework.

As far as development environments are concerned, you have many excellent
choices. I use a version of VIM that has a python interpreter compiled
into it. There are a lot of graphical IDEs with graphical debuggers etc,
for those who dont dig the 'home-rolled' environment thing- I use Eric3
when I need a graphical debugger, but it is also an excellent editor.
Eric3 has a built in project manager and class browser as well, so it
helps with those slightly bigger projects.

If you are using somebody else's server make sure that it has the right
modules, and make sure that it has a relatively up-to-date version of
python (unless you enjoy not using the nice new features). Many hosting
services are willing to add modules and perform updates if you ask them
nicely.

Good luck with your project!
--SegPhault

[Jean]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment

jean@simpleconf usion.com (Jean) wrote in message

Wow! I got quite a bit to chew here (except for Miklos's little
teasing at the beginning ;)) I guess I'v always known I have to find
my own little comfort zone, but with your help, I think I am off to a
good start. Thanks for the help. I think I am going to like this
place...

Regards,
Jean

PS., this doesn't mean you can't post additional suggestions ;)

[Miklós]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment


"Ryan Paul" <segphault@sbcg lobal.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.0 5.23.01.56.26.5 91726@sbcglobal .net...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:16:40 -0700, Jean wrote:
>
> zope is like the panacea for an illness that nobody has, but everybody
> has symptoms of. Zope is incredibly impressive, incredibly powerful, it
> does everything, it is brilliantly designed, but it requires immense
> amounts of time and patience to figure out how to employ it effectively,[/color]
[... good stuff deleted][color=blue]
> Good luck with your project!
> --SegPhault
>[/color]

Yes, I second your evaluation* (once again, I'm developing with Zope..) and
I appreciate your "mod_python + xml" way. Sounds cool, anyway.
(As for Twisted, that scared me way too much...) Besides I'm also a VIM
fan (with compiled-in python, of course ;) ) Will check out Eric3 perhaps.
For non-Zope things I tend to use another excellent tool written in Python:
Leo (which is a folding editor for literate programming)

* but I already overcome most of the Zope shock...

Best,
Miklós
--
E-mail: base64.decodest ring('cHJpc3pAY XN5bHVtdGVsLmNv bQ==\n')

[PF]

Re: Server/OS/Dev environment


I have started with SkunkWeb and it's incredibly powerful.
The template language is great, it has a lot of useful modules, and it
doesn't get in the way when I want to use other packages. The way it cuts
things in components and modules makes it really easy to reuse your code
bits.
Plus, it's very very fast. My PC generates 200 KB of html in about 60
milliseconds, all of it being dynamic.
On the downside, documentation is scarce, but what there is is well done.

Zope is impossible to use.

MySQL kinda sucks. No transactions... what can you do with a database
with no transactions... no foreign keys... no integrity constraints... no
"insert or update"... it has AMATEUR written all over it... I like
postgresql much better. plsql sucks but stored procedures are faster than
making a pile of requests.

Anyway, have fun !