Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc
So much to take in, so little time. I'm torn between the creative urge to
go forth and embark on this project, and the more pressing need to
study-study-study for exams, so please bear with me if I appear a little
distracted.
My 'psychology' is one that responds better to open possibilities than
closed boundaries. Compared to the expansive potential of python, I'd
likely become disenchanted with the restrictive structure of spreadsheets.
Although I could launch straight into the simpler spreadsheet stuff, getting
it to do really interesting stuff may prove tricky in the long run, and I'd
be constantly itching to try something more 'fun'.
A little investment in learning to program would leave me a happier person,
in the short and the long term. Since it's a skill I'd like to acquire
anyway, I'm inclined to lean that way regardless of the relative merits of
spreadsheets vs. python. It's likely that the added difficulty of
implementing it in an unfamiliar format would be taken into consideration in
the grading of the dissertation (as is standard practice where the project
is faced with obstacles), but do you think that python would make for a
'better' dissertation?
As for whittling away a couple of months on background reading, I doubt I'd
have the patience. I like to launch straight into things, learning as I go
and doing stuff my own way. Generally, I only refer to other peoples' work
when I'm really stuck, or when I don't know enough about the subject to even
hazard a guess at where to start. Doubtless I'll get really stuck at many
points in my simulation attempts, as I've been really stuck just trying to
get the simplest of code to work, but I don't see myself pouring over the
arcane tomes for longer than is strictly necessary. Not that I intend to be
sloppy about my reading - just concise.
Also, the 2-month schedule should perhaps be clarified. The actual deadline
is the beginning of December, but I'd like to keep fairly pessimistic about
the time I'll have, given course considerations, the limited amount of
effort I can spare before the first of June (end of exams) as well as the
tendency of field work and data mining to eat time like candy. Still, if
push comes to shove, I could makes thing fit, one way or another.
Cameron Laird <claird@lairds. com> wrote in message
news:106uj10g61 1v0f5@corp.supe rnews.com...[color=blue]
> In article <c4k63o$bss$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
> Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=green]
> >Spreadsheets do seem to be an attractive option, but the benefits are not
> >without their detractors:
> >
> >+Easy to work with
> >+Require no/limited skill acquisition
> >+Flexible
> >
> >-Cells can only hold single items of data (which can be worked around by
> >using arrays of cells to hold multiple attributes for each location)
> >-Require no/limited skill acquisition (being familiar and honest with my[/color][/color]
own[color=blue][color=green]
> >psychologica l composition, I know that the only way I'm likely to develop[/color][/color]
a[color=blue][color=green]
> >fair degree of programming competence is if there's a driving pressure to[/color][/color]
do[color=blue][color=green]
> >so. It's something I'd like to learn, and this gives me the[/color][/color]
excuse/leverage[color=blue][color=green]
> >to do so.)
> >
> >Unknowns: Time series graphical output would be necessary, even if it's
> >very primitive. Do you know if the spreadsheet could be set up in such a
> >way that cells would change colour depending on their values, or if the
> >graph making facilities would be able to create reasonable[/color][/color]
representations[color=blue][color=green]
> >of said values so that a series of graphs would be capable of showing up
> >phenomena with fluidic (wavelike, turbulent, etc) characteristics ?
> >
> >I'm afraid the temptation to take the hard route my prove too great
> >(psychologic al paradoxes: I always feel good about feeling so terrible[/color][/color]
about[color=blue][color=green]
> >these things after I've passed the point of no return in the undertaking,
> >and the enormity of the task at hand sinks in - it's a whole adrenalin
> >thing), but I'd still like to make a comprehensive assessment of my[/color][/color]
options[color=blue][color=green]
> >before I commit to anything.
> >
> >[/color]
>
> Spreadsheets can do anything. Python can do anything.
>
> To first approximation, at least. They both have developed
> enough to have far more capabilities than you'll exhaust in
> a couple of months.
>
> The key questions are: which better suit your psychology?
> Which will get in the way less? Which support "libraries"
> of related material in your "domain" (geography)?
>
> You're not experienced enough with software yet to judge
> the first of these questions well. Whatever first impres-
> sions Python or Excel make on you are likely to dwindle to
> insignicance after a few more weeks of software exploration.
>
> One of the dimensions your comparison of the two approaches
> doesn't cover is robustness of expression and abstraction.
> You aren't in a position to appreciate this yet, but Python
> beats spreadsheets all to pieces in these regards. Crudely,
> you can hand a Python solution to someone else, two years
> from now, and he'll understand what you've done, and how to
> modify or validate or ... it. I argue strongly that that is
> *not* true for spreadsheet solutions. I therefore regard
> spreadsheet approaches, except in specialized circumstances,
> as anti-scientific, because they don't promote the free
> exchange of ideas.
>
> There's a rich literature on simulation done with computers,
> some of it specifically by those coming from geography. It
> would be no particular problem to dissipate the entire two
> months just reading up on what you plan to do. You need to
> figure out a very circumscribed goal, and ask experts on what
> you should do to achieve it.
>
> Reading through *Thinking ... with Python* certainly can be
> part of that path.
> --
>
> Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net[/color]
So much to take in, so little time. I'm torn between the creative urge to
go forth and embark on this project, and the more pressing need to
study-study-study for exams, so please bear with me if I appear a little
distracted.
My 'psychology' is one that responds better to open possibilities than
closed boundaries. Compared to the expansive potential of python, I'd
likely become disenchanted with the restrictive structure of spreadsheets.
Although I could launch straight into the simpler spreadsheet stuff, getting
it to do really interesting stuff may prove tricky in the long run, and I'd
be constantly itching to try something more 'fun'.
A little investment in learning to program would leave me a happier person,
in the short and the long term. Since it's a skill I'd like to acquire
anyway, I'm inclined to lean that way regardless of the relative merits of
spreadsheets vs. python. It's likely that the added difficulty of
implementing it in an unfamiliar format would be taken into consideration in
the grading of the dissertation (as is standard practice where the project
is faced with obstacles), but do you think that python would make for a
'better' dissertation?
As for whittling away a couple of months on background reading, I doubt I'd
have the patience. I like to launch straight into things, learning as I go
and doing stuff my own way. Generally, I only refer to other peoples' work
when I'm really stuck, or when I don't know enough about the subject to even
hazard a guess at where to start. Doubtless I'll get really stuck at many
points in my simulation attempts, as I've been really stuck just trying to
get the simplest of code to work, but I don't see myself pouring over the
arcane tomes for longer than is strictly necessary. Not that I intend to be
sloppy about my reading - just concise.
Also, the 2-month schedule should perhaps be clarified. The actual deadline
is the beginning of December, but I'd like to keep fairly pessimistic about
the time I'll have, given course considerations, the limited amount of
effort I can spare before the first of June (end of exams) as well as the
tendency of field work and data mining to eat time like candy. Still, if
push comes to shove, I could makes thing fit, one way or another.
Cameron Laird <claird@lairds. com> wrote in message
news:106uj10g61 1v0f5@corp.supe rnews.com...[color=blue]
> In article <c4k63o$bss$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
> Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=green]
> >Spreadsheets do seem to be an attractive option, but the benefits are not
> >without their detractors:
> >
> >+Easy to work with
> >+Require no/limited skill acquisition
> >+Flexible
> >
> >-Cells can only hold single items of data (which can be worked around by
> >using arrays of cells to hold multiple attributes for each location)
> >-Require no/limited skill acquisition (being familiar and honest with my[/color][/color]
own[color=blue][color=green]
> >psychologica l composition, I know that the only way I'm likely to develop[/color][/color]
a[color=blue][color=green]
> >fair degree of programming competence is if there's a driving pressure to[/color][/color]
do[color=blue][color=green]
> >so. It's something I'd like to learn, and this gives me the[/color][/color]
excuse/leverage[color=blue][color=green]
> >to do so.)
> >
> >Unknowns: Time series graphical output would be necessary, even if it's
> >very primitive. Do you know if the spreadsheet could be set up in such a
> >way that cells would change colour depending on their values, or if the
> >graph making facilities would be able to create reasonable[/color][/color]
representations[color=blue][color=green]
> >of said values so that a series of graphs would be capable of showing up
> >phenomena with fluidic (wavelike, turbulent, etc) characteristics ?
> >
> >I'm afraid the temptation to take the hard route my prove too great
> >(psychologic al paradoxes: I always feel good about feeling so terrible[/color][/color]
about[color=blue][color=green]
> >these things after I've passed the point of no return in the undertaking,
> >and the enormity of the task at hand sinks in - it's a whole adrenalin
> >thing), but I'd still like to make a comprehensive assessment of my[/color][/color]
options[color=blue][color=green]
> >before I commit to anything.
> >
> >[/color]
>
> Spreadsheets can do anything. Python can do anything.
>
> To first approximation, at least. They both have developed
> enough to have far more capabilities than you'll exhaust in
> a couple of months.
>
> The key questions are: which better suit your psychology?
> Which will get in the way less? Which support "libraries"
> of related material in your "domain" (geography)?
>
> You're not experienced enough with software yet to judge
> the first of these questions well. Whatever first impres-
> sions Python or Excel make on you are likely to dwindle to
> insignicance after a few more weeks of software exploration.
>
> One of the dimensions your comparison of the two approaches
> doesn't cover is robustness of expression and abstraction.
> You aren't in a position to appreciate this yet, but Python
> beats spreadsheets all to pieces in these regards. Crudely,
> you can hand a Python solution to someone else, two years
> from now, and he'll understand what you've done, and how to
> modify or validate or ... it. I argue strongly that that is
> *not* true for spreadsheet solutions. I therefore regard
> spreadsheet approaches, except in specialized circumstances,
> as anti-scientific, because they don't promote the free
> exchange of ideas.
>
> There's a rich literature on simulation done with computers,
> some of it specifically by those coming from geography. It
> would be no particular problem to dissipate the entire two
> months just reading up on what you plan to do. You need to
> figure out a very circumscribed goal, and ask experts on what
> you should do to achieve it.
>
> Reading through *Thinking ... with Python* certainly can be
> part of that path.
> --
>
> Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net[/color]
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