emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

[Peter MacKenzie]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

Spreadsheets do seem to be an attractive option, but the benefits are not
without their detractors:

+Easy to work with
+Require no/limited skill acquisition
+Flexible

-Cells can only hold single items of data (which can be worked around by
using arrays of cells to hold multiple attributes for each location)
-Require no/limited skill acquisition (being familiar and honest with my own
psychological composition, I know that the only way I'm likely to develop a
fair degree of programming competence is if there's a driving pressure to do
so. It's something I'd like to learn, and this gives me the excuse/leverage
to do so.)

Unknowns: Time series graphical output would be necessary, even if it's
very primitive. Do you know if the spreadsheet could be set up in such a
way that cells would change colour depending on their values, or if the
graph making facilities would be able to create reasonable representations
of said values so that a series of graphs would be capable of showing up
phenomena with fluidic (wavelike, turbulent, etc) characteristics ?

I'm afraid the temptation to take the hard route my prove too great
(psychological paradoxes: I always feel good about feeling so terrible about
these things after I've passed the point of no return in the undertaking,
and the enormity of the task at hand sinks in - it's a whole adrenalin
thing), but I'd still like to make a comprehensive assessment of my options
before I commit to anything.

[Josiah Carlson]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

> fh = open(file, "r+") ## Do you need "b" (binary) for a text file?

Of course not, but keeping that binary flag allows you to get all the
information from a file when you are on windows. Depending on the
contents, this is not always the case.

Inserting the binary flag in *nix doesn't hurt anything.

- Josiah

[Bud Rogers]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

Leif B. Kristensen wrote:
[color=blue]
> I know the feeling. For me too, the best way to learn a new language
> is to wallow in working examples.[/color]

Same here. That's how I learned Perl. I picked up the basics from
Learning Perl, but no clear sense of how to use it for my purposes.
Then I picked up Programming Perl and got thoroughly intimidated. Then
I found the Perl Cookbook and fairly quickly learned what I needed to
know by scarfing the example code and modifying it for my purposes.

Now I find I'm following almost exactly the same trajectory with Python.
I have Learning Python and Programming Python, and just recently got a
copy of the Python Cookbook. Yeah, this is gonna work out fine.

[Dang Griffith]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:58:32 +0000 (UTC), "Peter MacKenzie"
<peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Spreadsheets do seem to be an attractive option, but the benefits are not
>without their detractors:[/color]
....[color=blue]
>-Require no/limited skill acquisition (being familiar and honest with my own
>psychologica l composition, I know that the only way I'm likely to develop a
>fair degree of programming competence is if there's a driving pressure to do
>so. It's something I'd like to learn, and this gives me the excuse/leverage
>to do so.)[/color]

Sorry I can't help you with that one--it's for you to decide.
[color=blue]
>Unknowns: Time series graphical output would be necessary, even if it's
>very primitive. Do you know if the spreadsheet could be set up in such a
>way that cells would change colour depending on their values, or if the
>graph making facilities would be able to create reasonable representations
>of said values so that a series of graphs would be capable of showing up
>phenomena with fluidic (wavelike, turbulent, etc) characteristics ?[/color]

I don't know what spreadsheet you're using, but I know Microsoft Excel
support conditional coloring.
[color=blue]
>I'm afraid the temptation to take the hard route my prove too great
>(psychologic al paradoxes: I always feel good about feeling so terrible about
>these things after I've passed the point of no return in the undertaking,
>and the enormity of the task at hand sinks in - it's a whole adrenalin
>thing), but I'd still like to make a comprehensive assessment of my options
>before I commit to anything.[/color]

It's a complex project. I'm pretty sure a spreadsheet is capable of
performing the calculations, but it may not be the best to provide
the graphical result you're looking for. On the other hand, maybe it
could generate the numbers for the graphics, and then you could have
a second program that reads the numbers to perform only the
graphics operations.

I agree with Josiah--two months is tight. I suggest if you're more
comfortable with a spreadsheet, start with a minimal "program" in
the spreadsheet. Realize that writing a python program will
require you to make many of the same design / algorithm decisions
as the spreadsheet.

--dang

[Peter MacKenzie]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

I think then that I might stick with spreadsheets as far a possible. Do you
know of any simulation programs that might be more suited? Also, how would
you extract data from a spreadsheet for use in another program? I'm not
familiar with means of linking spreadsheets to external applications, though
I don't doubt that it can be done.

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4ibr0$ngm$1@n ews.service.uci .edu>,
Josiah Carlson <jcarlson@uci.e du> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> rules. Given that I have only a basic foothold on the language, does
>> anybody foresee difficulties for me learning enough to impliment simple and
>> experimentally flexible sim-city style simulations (minus fancy graphics and
>> llamas) in no more than 2 months (to allow for time to conduct actual
>> experiments + field observations etc)? I would be able to engender aid from
>> various staff, and the university library should carry titles on the
>> subject. Failing that, I could do it the old fashioned way and buy a how-to
>> book, but I'd like some opinions on the difficulty of the goal from people
>> who've already trancended the non-programmer/programmer barrier.[/color]
>
>
>Two months is a pretty tight schedule. If you're on your toes, I would
>bet you could learn enough of the langauge to support your ideas in 2
>months. Actually programming the thing in 2 months; I wouldn't be able
>to make that kind of judgement about your abilities.[/color]

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4jehj$6eh$1@t itan.btinternet .com>,
Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4k63o$bss$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Spreadsheets do seem to be an attractive option, but the benefits are not
>without their detractors:
>
>+Easy to work with
>+Require no/limited skill acquisition
>+Flexible
>
>-Cells can only hold single items of data (which can be worked around by
>using arrays of cells to hold multiple attributes for each location)
>-Require no/limited skill acquisition (being familiar and honest with my own
>psychologica l composition, I know that the only way I'm likely to develop a
>fair degree of programming competence is if there's a driving pressure to do
>so. It's something I'd like to learn, and this gives me the excuse/leverage
>to do so.)
>
>Unknowns: Time series graphical output would be necessary, even if it's
>very primitive. Do you know if the spreadsheet could be set up in such a
>way that cells would change colour depending on their values, or if the
>graph making facilities would be able to create reasonable representations
>of said values so that a series of graphs would be capable of showing up
>phenomena with fluidic (wavelike, turbulent, etc) characteristics ?
>
>I'm afraid the temptation to take the hard route my prove too great
>(psychologic al paradoxes: I always feel good about feeling so terrible about
>these things after I've passed the point of no return in the undertaking,
>and the enormity of the task at hand sinks in - it's a whole adrenalin
>thing), but I'd still like to make a comprehensive assessment of my options
>before I commit to anything.
>
>[/color]

Spreadsheets can do anything. Python can do anything.

To first approximation, at least. They both have developed
enough to have far more capabilities than you'll exhaust in
a couple of months.

The key questions are: which better suit your psychology?
Which will get in the way less? Which support "libraries"
of related material in your "domain" (geography)?

You're not experienced enough with software yet to judge
the first of these questions well. Whatever first impres-
sions Python or Excel make on you are likely to dwindle to
insignicance after a few more weeks of software exploration.

One of the dimensions your comparison of the two approaches
doesn't cover is robustness of expression and abstraction.
You aren't in a position to appreciate this yet, but Python
beats spreadsheets all to pieces in these regards. Crudely,
you can hand a Python solution to someone else, two years
from now, and he'll understand what you've done, and how to
modify or validate or ... it. I argue strongly that that is
*not* true for spreadsheet solutions. I therefore regard
spreadsheet approaches, except in specialized circumstances,
as anti-scientific, because they don't promote the free
exchange of ideas.

There's a rich literature on simulation done with computers,
some of it specifically by those coming from geography. It
would be no particular problem to dissipate the entire two
months just reading up on what you plan to do. You need to
figure out a very circumscribed goal, and ask experts on what
you should do to achieve it.

Reading through *Thinking ... with Python* certainly can be
part of that path.
--

Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4mv6o$c2m$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>I think then that I might stick with spreadsheets as far a possible. Do you
>know of any simulation programs that might be more suited? Also, how would
>you extract data from a spreadsheet for use in another program? I'm not
>familiar with means of linking spreadsheets to external applications, though
>I don't doubt that it can be done.
>
>[/color]

Software people *constantly* talk about "means of linking ... to
external applications"; it's one of our obsessions, for reasons
best left to another time.

Here's a way you can practice thinking about it: a spreadsheet
can write its "answers" to a file--just a simple document, the
sort you might write as a human, yourself. Another program can
read that file. That establishes communication between the
spreadsheet and the other program. Mission accomplished.

Spreadsheets typically have *dozens* of distinct ways of talking
to "outsiders" , although that's often apparent only to software
specialists.
--

Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4aeq8$92a$1@h ercules.btinter net.com>,
Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Hello, I'm Peter, and I'm very much a newbie.[/color]

[Cameron Laird]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

In article <c4btjr$8il$1@t itan.btinternet .com>,
Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>(Hmm, this might appear as a double posting, but I don't think my last one
>made it through.)
>
>Thanks, but.
>
>("One approach to discussing and comparing AI
>problem solving strategies is to categorize them using the
>terms ''strong'' and ''weak'' methods. Generally, a weak[/color]

[Michele Simionato]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

Josiah Carlson <jcarlson@uci.e du> wrote in message news:<c4ccs2$l9 j$1@news.servic e.uci.edu>...[color=blue]
> Want to run a file? (be careful though, executing the contents of a
> file can be dangerous)...
> fil = open('filename' , 'rb')
> contents = fil.read()
> fil.close()
> exec(contents)[/color]

or just use execfile('filen ame') or even import filename.


Michele Simionato

[Michele Simionato]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

"Peter MacKenzie" <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote in message news:<c4hjp4$dg 6$1@sparta.btin ternet.com>...[color=blue]
> In addition to exams, I also must start a dissertation in July for my
> geography hon B.Sc. Although I should ideally have found a subject two
> months ago, I've so far lacked any truly appealing project ideas (much to
> the consternation of my advisor). Since reading 'Emergence', by Steven
> Johnson, and conducting prelimenary research on the matter, I've settled on
> the dissertation title: "Emergence theory as an approach to city design".
>
> To this goal, I'd like to use computer modeling to simulate ways in which
> the spatial distribution of indicator phenomena in cities (land price/use,
> crime, demographic composition etc) is affected by bottom-up, local area
> rules. Given that I have only a basic foothold on the language, does
> anybody foresee difficulties for me learning enough to impliment simple and
> experimentally flexible sim-city style simulations (minus fancy graphics and
> llamas) in no more than 2 months (to allow for time to conduct actual
> experiments + field observations etc)? I would be able to engender aid from
> various staff, and the university library should carry titles on the
> subject. Failing that, I could do it the old fashioned way and buy a how-to
> book, but I'd like some opinions on the difficulty of the goal from people
> who've already trancended the non-programmer/programmer barrier.[/color]

I would suggest you to forget about this project and to spend those two
months in learning the basis of Python. IMO learning a programming language
will do to your mind a far better good than learning a spreadsheet.
Having said so, it is ok if you keep this project in the back of your mind
while you learn programming, but do not expect you can finish it in a couple
of months starting from scratch, without guidance and not working on it full
time. OTOH, a couple of months is enough to get the basics of programming
(which is not the same as becoming a programmer). I would estimate the time
to get a minimal understanding of modern programming in one year. Still,
notice that I estimate the time to write your first useful program in Python
in five minutes, so you will get back something from your effort immediately.
This is the nice thing about programming. The bad thing are bugs, that you
will get well before the first five minutes ;)

Michele Simionato

[Peter MacKenzie]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

Von Thunen? I had to look that one up, but I realised upon finding it that
I'd been taught it way back in first year geography in high school. It's
not something they refer to anymore, except as an absolute first step to
understanding settlement structure and distribution. Looking over it again,
it's easy to see why. The criteria required for it to work are almost
impossible in the real world, so the models that are taught after it are
generally refinements and novel applications of the basic Von Thunen
concepts.

To take a couple of examples, the bid/rent model of land use is a modern
version that incorporates lines of communication (roads, rails, etc) when
considering land uses, which convert the concentric structure of the Von
Thunen model into something more reminiscent of a spider web.

Models that address sociological phenomenon bring in another layer of
refinement. Particularly notable are those models that focus on 'quartered'
cities, with self-contained micro-cities serving distinct groups. These
structures were commonplace during the colonial era, when trade cities were
often a multi-nucleated patchwork of white, indigenous and 'miscellaneous'
societies.

It's common, when addressing any location, to apply a Von Thunen framework
to the layout of the area and use any discrepancies with the idealised
theory as a focus of the study. Generally though, it's something so
ingrained in the geographer's conscious that it never really gets much
thought.

Cameron Laird <claird@lairds. com> wrote in message
news:106ugk2brr uis3a@corp.supe rnews.com...[color=blue]
> In article <c4ibr0$ngm$1@n ews.service.uci .edu>,
> Josiah Carlson <jcarlson@uci.e du> wrote:[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> rules. Given that I have only a basic foothold on the language, does
> >> anybody foresee difficulties for me learning enough to impliment simple[/color][/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> experimentally flexible sim-city style simulations (minus fancy[/color][/color][/color]
graphics and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> llamas) in no more than 2 months (to allow for time to conduct actual
> >> experiments + field observations etc)? I would be able to engender aid[/color][/color][/color]
from[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> various staff, and the university library should carry titles on the
> >> subject. Failing that, I could do it the old fashioned way and buy a[/color][/color][/color]
how-to[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> book, but I'd like some opinions on the difficulty of the goal from[/color][/color][/color]
people[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> who've already trancended the non-programmer/programmer barrier.[/color]
> >
> >
> >Two months is a pretty tight schedule. If you're on your toes, I would
> >bet you could learn enough of the langauge to support your ideas in 2
> >months. Actually programming the thing in 2 months; I wouldn't be able
> >to make that kind of judgement about your abilities.[/color]
> .
> .
> .
> Bluntly, I'd bet against it. There's a daunting amount
> of new material you'll need to learn. My advice: we can
> help you refine your project so that the computing part is
> less overwhelming.
>
> 'You read von Thunen, by the way?
> --
>
> Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net[/color]

[Peter MacKenzie]

Re: emergent/swarm/evolutionary systems etc

>You might like "The Outsider's Guide to Artificial Intelligence"[color=blue]
><URL: http://robotwisdom.com/ai/index.html >.[/color]

Yes. It is interesting. I've been playing with the idea of graphical
representations for programming 'phrases' for a while, and the reference to
LISP brought it to mind. Although LISP doesn't look that much better than
Python code, are there any programs out there that let you program, um,
programs, using various shapes, colours etc? Just thinking about it brings
up all manner of difficulties that would be encountered if you tried to
create such a thing, but it would be nice if there was some immediately
obvious graphical connection between pieces of code (so beginners like me
didn't keep trying to put the square code through the round code ;-) ).
Just a thought of the 'in the shower' variety.

I also liked the idea of the metagame project
(http://satirist.org/learn-game/projects/metagame.html), though I don't see
myself taking on a challenge of that magnitude in the reasonably foreseeable
future.







Cameron Laird <claird@lairds. com> wrote in message
news:106um6hcr3 63u14@corp.supe rnews.com...[color=blue]
> In article <c4btjr$8il$1@t itan.btinternet .com>,
> Peter MacKenzie <peter9547@btin ternet.com> wrote:[color=green]
> >(Hmm, this might appear as a double posting, but I don't think my last[/color][/color]
one[color=blue][color=green]
> >made it through.)
> >
> >Thanks, but.
> >
> >("One approach to discussing and comparing AI
> >problem solving strategies is to categorize them using the
> >terms ''strong'' and ''weak'' methods. Generally, a weak[/color]
> .
> [much more]
> .
> .
> You might like "The Outsider's Guide to Artificial Intelligence"
> <URL: http://robotwisdom.com/ai/index.html >.
> --
>
> Cameron Laird <claird@phaseit .net>
> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net[/color]