Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

[Charles Hixson]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

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Charles Hixson wrote:

| Michael wrote:
|
| | They're planning to remove tab indention support in 3.0? I for
| one | would be pissed off at such a change. I don't mind people
| using | spaces if they like but I see no reason I shouldn't be able
| to use | tabs if I like. I can't see how it should make any
| difference to | Python which you use so why not allow for personal
| preference? | |> I'll just mention that there are ***very good***,
| that is |> ***extremely good*** reasons why the Python standard is
| to use |> spaces for indentation, and why the option of using tabs
| will be |> removed in 3.0. |> They can't possibly be good enough
| (for my needs). That said, where can I check this. I don't want
| to make important decisions on incomplete information.

Well, I've just checked the cvs source build (version of 2004/03/30),
and it handles files with tab-based indentation without problem or
warning. So I suspect that it will continue to do so. (I also
checked all the PEPs and the BDFL's commentary, and a few other places.)

I think someone was just spreading FUD. (Quite effectively though, as
far as I'm concerned.)
There are good reasons to not mix tab indentation and space
indentation, and that would cause me no problems. The other though
(shudder).

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[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: [OT] about OO concepts

Hung Jung Lu wrote:
(snip)
[color=blue]
>
> I think the current way how OOP is taught is kind of bad. The lectures
> would start with definition of classes, inheritance, virtual
> functions, etc.
>[/color]
(snip)
[color=blue]
> I often don't know how to take it when I see people talking about OOP
> by using definitions like: polymorphism, data hiding, etc. As if these
> definitions were something of utmost importance.[/color]

Well, last time I tried to explain OOP I started with the 'object'
concept (object = id + state + behavior), then came to the 'class'
concept, first defined as 'a class is the set of objects that share the
same behavior'. It's hard to tell because no two brains works the same,
but it seemed that the person I was trying to teach OO found this
approach quite clear...
[color=blue]
> To me, OOP is just a
> tool for factorizing code, just like using for-loops and using
> functions to factor out repetitive code. Polymorphism, data hiding,
> etc. are all secondary features[/color]

Err... I would not say that polymorphism is 'secondary'. It's IMHO one
of the most important concepts in OO.

(snip)
[color=blue]
> A CS professor friend of mine once said: "all problems in CS are
> solved by just one more level of indexing,"[/color]

IIRC, the exact quote is : "any problem can be solved by adding a level
of indirection - except for 'too much levels of indirection'" (now don't
ask me who said this !-)

Bruno

[Mark Hahn]

Re: [OT] Top posting is a PITA [was : Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes]

> make your posts more readable

Sorry.

I really really try to remember to quote from below. If you go through my
posts you will see that I remember most of the time. The last few days I
have been reponding to four or five mailing lists after months of only
coding and my fingers are worn out.



"Bruno Desthuilliers" <bdesth.quelque chose@free.quel quepart.fr> wrote in
message news:4069e9d9$0 $8915$636a15ce@ news.free.fr...[color=blue]
> Peter Hickman wrote:[color=green]
> > Gerrit wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> only one. I think it is the wrong answer to say that people shouldn't
> >> bitch about top-posting - it _does_ annoy people (including me and[/color][/color][/color]
Aahz).[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> >
> > Will you please reign in you ego and qualify your statement 'it annoys
> > *SOME* people'.[/color]
>
> Well, it seems that it annoys *most* people here. BTW, I was about to do
> the same... (Mark, if you read us : your work seems pretty interesting,
> so do *yourself* a favor and make your posts more readable !-).
>[color=green]
> > I find all the bitching about top posting to be a
> > greater distraction than top posting itself![/color]
>
> So please stop bitching about people bitching about top-posting.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> There are conventions on usenet (and mailing lists), and they are there
> >> with reason. I would like to kindly ask you to try to do more
> >> 'bottom-posting'. It makes your postings easier and prettier to read.[/color]
> >
> > I find bottom posting to be a real pain as when I look at a new message
> > it defaults to showing me the top of the message and I then have to
> > scroll through pages of quoted posts that I have already read just to
> > read one or two lines stuck at the bottom.[/color]
>
> If you have to do so, then the poster didn't get point : only quote
> what's needed.
>
> (snip)
>[color=green]
> >
> > I have never left a group because of the trolls.
> > I have never left a group because of the noobies.
> > I have left a group because of the constant whining about top posting.[/color]
>
> May I suggest you to count how many messages Mark posted here before
> someone kindly suggested that he could help everyone by doing a simple
> thing ? If that's what you call 'constant whining', then you are the[/color]
troll.[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > People who whine on about 'top posting' are the sort of people who draft
> > 'clean desk' policies. If you want to whine about top posting then start
> > alt.whine.top.p osting and have fun.[/color]
>
> Après vous, mon cher.
>
> Bruno
>[/color]

[Michael]

Re: [OT] about OO concepts

[color=blue]
> Well, last time I tried to explain OOP I started with the 'object'
> concept (object = id + state + behavior), then came to the 'class'
> concept, first defined as 'a class is the set of objects that share
> the same behavior'. It's hard to tell because no two brains works the
> same, but it seemed that the person I was trying to teach OO found
> this approach quite clear...[/color]

I always teach the object concept by putting objects into real world
terms. An object is a car, cup, or bowling ball. Each has properties
that help define what the object is. Color, weight, or size. Each also
has methods which are things which the object can do. Start it's engine,
be sipped from, or be rolled. Even novice programmers can pick that
concept up pretty easily. Classes take a little more work. Just
explaining that there could be different types of cars which in turn are
different types of vehicles but that certain design aspects are often
the same. I just explain a class as being a design for an object and
that when you instantate an objectit's like manufacturing something from
a design. Most people grasp the idea pretty quickly when put into such
non-abstract terms. I might explain polymorphism as something like
different brands of the same item. Your car can use generic tires that
cost $50 or stylishh tires that cost $500. As long as they follow
certain design rules they are interchangable parts but they can differ
greatly outside those rules.

Maybe it's underestimating people but I think a lot of novices don't
really understand the abstract ideas we throw at them. I see even
somewhat experienced coders still avoiding using such things as
functions and objects. Clearly not good. :)

[Skip Montanaro]

Re: tabbing probs


Michael> An editor is crappy if it inserts anything other than what you
Michael> type into the code. If I press tab and four spaces are
Michael> inserted that is crap.

Not if that's what I asked it to do. I have python-mode in Emacs set to use
4-space indents and only insert SPACE characters, not TAB characters.
Pressing the TAB key while the cursor is at the beginning of line inserts or
deletes enough SPACEs to put the cursor at the correct indentation for the
current line (based upon the indentation and content of the previous line).

Michael> If I press 'A' and 'a' is inserted that is crap.

not if I placed my editor in e.e. cummings mode...

Michael> To me, it sounds as if this entire issue is caused by crappy
Michael> editors that think they know better than the programmers.

It has nothing to do with the editors considered in isolation. By in large
they are doing exactly what the programmers ask them to do. The problem is
with the interchange of program files between unlike systems (via whatever
means: email, CVS checkins, grabbing from a web page, etc) which have tools
(editors in particular) which interpret TAB characters differently based
upon how the programmers have configured them. To the best of my knowledge
no systems interpret SPACE characters in weird ways, so using them to
indicate indentation is the only foolproof solution.

Skip

[Michele Simionato]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

Peter Hickman <peter@semantic o.com> wrote in message news:<4069a001$ 0$4237$afc38c87 @news.easynet.c o.uk>...[color=blue]
> I have never left a group because of the trolls.
> I have never left a group because of the noobies.
> I have left a group because of the constant whining about top posting.[/color]

Then maybe you should consider leaving c.l.py ?

Michele Simionato

[JanC]

Re: [OT] Top posting is a PITA [was : Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes]

"Mark Hahn" <mark@prothon.o rg> schreef:
[color=blue]
> I really really try to remember to quote from below. If you go through my
> posts you will see that I remember most of the time. The last few days I
> have been reponding to four or five mailing lists after months of only
> coding and my fingers are worn out.[/color]

Try OE-QuoteFix, it can help you, and it's free:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/>

Also, I think OE allows you to select the text-to-quote _before_ replying.

--
JanC

"Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9

[Hamilcar Barca]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

In article <Sz8ac.68272$cx 5.62681@fed1rea d04> (Mon, 29 Mar 2004 22:36:55
-0800), Mark Hahn wrote:
[color=blue]
> A2. People that bitch about top-posting.[/color]

A3. People professing to be computer literate -- some claiming to be
programming language designers and wanting to be taken seriously -- who
refuse to understand why top-posting doesn't follow the rules of written
European language.

A4. People who refuse to trim unnecessary quoted material from their
follow-ups.

--
"Posting at the top because that's where the cursor happened to
be is like shitting in your pants because that's where your
asshole happened to be."
-- Andreas Prilop (c.i.w.a.h)

[Michael]

Re: tabbing probs

[color=blue]
>Not if that's what I asked it to do. I have python-mode in Emacs set to use
>4-space indents and only insert SPACE characters, not TAB characters.
>Pressing the TAB key while the cursor is at the beginning of line inserts or
>deletes enough SPACEs to put the cursor at the correct indentation for the
>current line (based upon the indentation and content of the previous line).
>
>[/color]
If you tell it to do that then that's fine. But then if you can do that
then why can't you just tell the editor to handle tabs as tabs? The
whole discussion being about why tabs should be removed because some
editors are to stupid to handle them correctly, or maybe just some
programmers are to stupid to tell their editor how to handle tabs. If
you can tell the editor to not allow mixing of spaces and tabs then the
entire issue would be moot.
[color=blue]
>not if I placed my editor in e.e. cummings mode...
>
>[/color]
That'd be rather funny. It reminds me of the time I wrote a projects
documentation in Suess-like language.
[color=blue]
>It has nothing to do with the editors considered in isolation. By in large
>they are doing exactly what the programmers ask them to do. The problem is
>with the interchange of program files between unlike systems (via whatever
>means: email, CVS checkins, grabbing from a web page, etc) which have tools
>(editors in particular) which interpret TAB characters differently based
>upon how the programmers have configured them. To the best of my knowledge
>no systems interpret SPACE characters in weird ways, so using them to
>indicate indentation is the only foolproof solution.
>
>[/color]
I have experienced the problem of cutting and pasting from some apps
where tabs are replaced as spaces. Annoying, but still an error in those
apps and not in Python. On the rare occassion that happens I just fix
the code. I would like if Python could spit out warnings where tabs and
spaces were mixed. That'd be a handy alert in cases where I might forget
to fix a line.

I can see that the mishandling of tabs by certain apps is annoying. I
just don't see how adding Python to that list will be any less annoying.

[Greg Ewing (using news.cis.dfn.de)]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

Peter Hickman wrote:[color=blue]
> I find bottom posting to be a real pain as when I look at a new message
> it defaults to showing me the top of the message and I then have to
> scroll through pages of quoted posts that I have already read just to
> read one or two lines stuck at the bottom.[/color]

That's equally bad. The issue isn't about so-called "top-posting"
vs. "bottom-posting". The issue is that you should only be
quoting SMALL amounts of the original post -- just enough to
establish a context for what you're about to say.

Then people don't have to scroll either way to find the
new content.

(You will notice that I did not quote any more of the original
message, either at the top or the bottom.)

--
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

[Greg Ewing (using news.cis.dfn.de)]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

Michael wrote:[color=blue]
> If you're making a short response to the entire message it's okay to top
> post.[/color]

I wouldn't consider it appropriate even then. In that situation
I usually pick some distinctive sentence from the original and
quote that -- just to remind people of the context, not to
reproduce it in toto.

--
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand

http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

[Ben Finney]

Re: Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 22:40:34 -0700, Hamilcar Barca wrote:[color=blue]
> top-posting doesn't follow the rules of written European language.[/color]

I don't know why you feel the need to qualify that; I don't know of
*any* human writing system in current use where a discussion proceeds
from the bottom to the top. So:

top-posting doesn't follow the rules of written language.

seems stronger to me.

--
\ "When I turned two I was really anxious, because I'd doubled my |
`\ age in a year. I thought, if this keeps up, by the time I'm six |
_o__) I'll be ninety." -- Steven Wright |
Ben Finney <http://bignose.squidly .org/>

[Mark Hahn]

Re: [OT] Top posting is a PITA [was : Prothon Prototypes vs Python Classes]

I just downloaded it. I'll give it a try.

"JanC" <usenet_spam@ja nc.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94BD467 AF47A5JanC@213. 119.4.35...[color=blue]
> "Mark Hahn" <mark@prothon.o rg> schreef:
>[color=green]
> > I really really try to remember to quote from below. If you go through[/color][/color]
my[color=blue][color=green]
> > posts you will see that I remember most of the time. The last few days I
> > have been reponding to four or five mailing lists after months of only
> > coding and my fingers are worn out.[/color]
>
> Try OE-QuoteFix, it can help you, and it's free:
> <http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/>
>
> Also, I think OE allows you to select the text-to-quote _before_ replying.
>
> --
> JanC
>
> "Be strict when sending and tolerant when receiving."
> RFC 1958 - Architectural Principles of the Internet - section 3.9[/color]

[Max M]

Re: [OT] Top posting is a PITA [was : Prothon Prototypes vs PythonClasses]

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
[color=blue]
> Peter Hickman wrote:
>[color=green]
>> People who whine on about 'top posting' are the sort of people who
>> draft 'clean desk' policies. If you want to whine about top posting
>> then start alt.whine.top.p osting and have fun.[/color][/color]


That is not quite right. Using top posting forces every reader to
unlearn a lifetime of knowledge about narrative flow in content.

Left-right - top-down

That's how we are reading and writing in most western cultures. For me
that's about 40 years of habbit. And it takes a lot of mental effort to
read.

You could just as well expect that we start reading from right to left.
Exactly the same thing.

..too confusing pretty is that And


regards Max M

[Michael]

Re: [OT] Top posting is a PITA [was : Prothon Prototypes vs PythonClasses]

top.
to
bottom
read
to
learn
to
you
forcing
be
would
this
No,
[color=blue]
> That is not quite right. Using top posting forces every reader to
> unlearn a lifetime of knowledge about narrative flow in content.
>
> Left-right - top-down
>
> That's how we are reading and writing in most western cultures. For me
> that's about 40 years of habbit. And it takes a lot of mental effort
> to read.
>
> You could just as well expect that we start reading from right to
> left. Exactly the same thing.
>
> .too confusing pretty is that And[/color]

With top posting you're still reading the same way. You shouldn't even
need to read the quoted text below. It's only there to help keep the
structure of the conversation recorded. You read the relevant parts of a
document first and since we are, as you said, used to reading top-down
that means the relevant parts are highest on the page. The same way we
read a title and opening paragraph before reading the rest of a document.