wxWindows changes name

**Tim Roberts** · Jul 18 '05, 08:43 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Ben Finney <bignose-hates-spam@and-benfinney-does-too.id.au> wrote:[color=blue]
>
>Just when we thought things were looking up on the whole "Windows as a
>trademark" for something that Microsoft didn't originate in the first
>place.
>
>The wxWindows project have announced that they are changing their name
>to wxWidgets, specifically to avoid problems with the Microsoft product
>name.[/color]

That's enough to make a guy angry. Not at Julian or Robin, but at the
bozos at Microsoft who have the unmitigated gall to suggest that ANY use of
the word "windows" could possibly have any impact on their galactic empire.

Did you hear about the teenager named Mike Rowe, who decided to call his
little company "Mike Rowe Soft"? When he registered his domain, the
Redmond lawyers came a-knocking, demanding money. Fortunately, the bad
press caused them to change their mind in this case.

Andersen Windows had better fire up their legal team.
--
- Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

**Piet van Oostrum** · Jul 18 '05, 08:44 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

>>>>> Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com > (TR) wrote:

TR> Ben Finney <bignose-hates-spam@and-benfinney-does-too.id.au> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Just when we thought things were looking up on the whole "Windows as a
>> trademark" for something that Microsoft didn't originate in the first
>> place.
>>
>> The wxWindows project have announced that they are changing their name
>> to wxWidgets, specifically to avoid problems with the Microsoft product
>> name.[/color][/color]

TR> That's enough to make a guy angry. Not at Julian or Robin, but at the
TR> bozos at Microsoft who have the unmitigated gall to suggest that ANY use of
TR> the word "windows" could possibly have any impact on their galactic empire.

TR> Did you hear about the teenager named Mike Rowe, who decided to call his
TR> little company "Mike Rowe Soft"? When he registered his domain, the
TR> Redmond lawyers came a-knocking, demanding money. Fortunately, the bad
TR> press caused them to change their mind in this case.

So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as XWindows.
And what about the comp.windows.x newsgroup hierarchy?
--
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.n l>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP]
Private email: P.van.Oostrum@h ccnet.nl

**max khesin** · Jul 18 '05, 08:44 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Pet van Oostrum wrote:

[color=blue]
> So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as XWindows.
> And what about the comp.windows.x newsgroup hierarchy?[/color]
comp.widgets.x ? hmm..

**Terry Reedy** · Jul 18 '05, 08:44 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

"Piet van Oostrum" <piet@cs.uu.n l> wrote in message
news:wzy8qsfqe6 .fsf@ordesa.cs. uu.nl...
[color=blue]
> So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as[/color]
XWindows.

Isn't there a consortium or something, with much more resources ($$$) to
fight than Julian and Robin have? Anyway, I have the impression (possibly
wrong) that WxWindows started out to be compatible with and a clone of and
was originally named after MS Windows, while the X Window system preceeds
MSW, so that the cases (and possible court outcomes) are different.

It is a complement to Julian and Robin that MS noticed them enough to
threaten and negotiate with them. Also that they did not just cave but
negotiated a 6 month transition period and $ for transition costs.
[color=blue]
> And what about the comp.windows.x newsgroup hierarchy?[/color]

Who are they going to sue?

Terry J. Reedy

**Peter Hansen** · Jul 18 '05, 08:44 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Ben Finney wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Howdy all,
>
> Just when we thought things were looking up on the whole "Windows as a
> trademark" for something that Microsoft didn't originate in the first
> place.
>
> The wxWindows project have announced that they are changing their name
> to wxWidgets, specifically to avoid problems with the Microsoft product
> name.
>
> <http://www.wxwindows.o rg/name.htm>[/color]

I haven't read the link (deliberately, for now) but I'd point out that the
some of the "problems" they are avoiding by doing so are the possible confusion
in the minds of potential users as to whether wxWindows is cross-platform
or not. wxWidgets might be an easier "sell" as a cross-platform GUI framework,
so in that sense it's not a bad idea.

Who really wants "windows" in their product name in this day and age anyway?

It's not like it carries connotations of reliability or good design, is it?

-Peter

**Ken Godee** · Jul 18 '05, 08:45 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Piet van Oostrum wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>>Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com > (TR) wrote:[/color][/color]
>
>
> TR> Ben Finney <bignose-hates-spam@and-benfinney-does-too.id.au> wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>Just when we thought things were looking up on the whole "Windows as a
>>>trademark" for something that Microsoft didn't originate in the first
>>>place.
>>>
>>>The wxWindows project have announced that they are changing their name
>>>to wxWidgets, specifically to avoid problems with the Microsoft product
>>>name.[/color][/color]
>
>
> TR> That's enough to make a guy angry. Not at Julian or Robin, but at the
> TR> bozos at Microsoft who have the unmitigated gall to suggest that ANY use of
> TR> the word "windows" could possibly have any impact on their galactic empire.
>
> TR> Did you hear about the teenager named Mike Rowe, who decided to call his
> TR> little company "Mike Rowe Soft"? When he registered his domain, the
> TR> Redmond lawyers came a-knocking, demanding money. Fortunately, the bad
> TR> press caused them to change their mind in this case.
>
> So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as XWindows.
> And what about the comp.windows.x newsgroup hierarchy?[/color]

Couple points,

1. The X window systems name is not "X Windows", it is simply
'X' or 'X11' . Just alot of people wrongly call it Xwindows.

2. I'm not defending MS in anyway, but if one doesn't
defend it's trade mark it will become non defendable
and you must defend it against all, not pick and choose.
Hell, look at what Harley Davidson's done in tha last
couple of years. Trademarked/patented everything including
the sound of thier scooters and they're defending it rigorously.
Just try to open a motorcycle shop called something like "Hog Heaven" or
anything with the name "Hog" in it and see how long before
you get a letter, before the grand opening I'd bet.

**Terry Reedy** · Jul 18 '05, 08:45 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

"Peter Hansen" <peter@engcorp. com> wrote in message
news:403BA197.9 9C6A4C5@engcorp .com...[color=blue][color=green]
> > The wxWindows project have announced that they are changing their name
> > to wxWidgets, specifically to avoid problems with the Microsoft product
> > name.
> >
> > <http://www.wxwindows.o rg/name.htm>[/color]
>
> I haven't read the link (deliberately, for now)[/color]

It is a straightforward one page announcement of the change with a request
that others go along and get on with coding. No rants or sordid details to
avoid;-)
[color=blue]
>but I'd point out that the
> some of the "problems" they are avoiding by doing so are the possible[/color]
confusion[color=blue]
> in the minds of potential users as to whether wxWindows is cross-platform
> or not. wxWidgets might be an easier "sell" as a cross-platform GUI[/color]
framework,[color=blue]
> so in that sense it's not a bad idea.
>
> Who really wants "windows" in their product name in this day and age[/color]
anyway?[color=blue]
>
> It's not like it carries connotations of reliability or good design, is[/color]
it?

I agree that MS may have pushed them into making a change that is at least
neutral and possibly positive in the long run.

Terry J. Reedy

**Anand Pillai** · Jul 18 '05, 08:45 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

In the news article, it says that the Microsoft made a "polite request".
I dont think that they actually "threatened " Julian and Robin like they
did to that teenage boy. These guys are not teenagers you know :-)

It looks to me more like an agreement worked out between M$ and
Julian/Robin with some apologies from the M$ lawyers pleading
with them how much they need to defend the "Windows" and "Microsoft"
namespaces from being polluted by the big bad world out there.

They started with Lindows, went to Mike Rowe, now wxWindows,
now "Where do they want to go today" ?

Someone should direct the M$ lawyers to the new M$ ad being showed
on TV everyday these days. At least that will help them to get
"next big ideas" instead of worrying about namespaces.

-Anand

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy@udel.e du> wrote in message news:<mailman.5 7.1077648520.85 94.python-list@python.org >...[color=blue]
> "Piet van Oostrum" <piet@cs.uu.n l> wrote in message
> news:wzy8qsfqe6 .fsf@ordesa.cs. uu.nl...
>[color=green]
> > So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as[/color]
> XWindows.
>
> Isn't there a consortium or something, with much more resources ($$$) to
> fight than Julian and Robin have? Anyway, I have the impression (possibly
> wrong) that WxWindows started out to be compatible with and a clone of and
> was originally named after MS Windows, while the X Window system preceeds
> MSW, so that the cases (and possible court outcomes) are different.
>
> It is a complement to Julian and Robin that MS noticed them enough to
> threaten and negotiate with them. Also that they did not just cave but
> negotiated a 6 month transition period and $ for transition costs.
>[color=green]
> > And what about the comp.windows.x newsgroup hierarchy?[/color]
>
> Who are they going to sue?
>
> Terry J. Reedy[/color]

**Paul Rubin** · Jul 18 '05, 08:45 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

pythonguy@Hotpo p.com (Anand Pillai) writes:[color=blue]
> In the news article, it says that the Microsoft made a "polite request".
> I dont think that they actually "threatened " Julian and Robin like they
> did to that teenage boy. These guys are not teenagers you know :-)[/color]

I like the name wxWidgets a lot better than wxWindows. wxWindows
makes it sound like a Windows product. For the longest time I paid no
attention to it because I don't use Windows and I didn't realize it
was cross-platform.

**Paul Boddie** · Jul 18 '05, 08:46 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

"Terry Reedy" <tjreedy@udel.e du> wrote in message news:<mailman.5 7.1077648520.85 94.python-list@python.org >...[color=blue]
> "Piet van Oostrum" <piet@cs.uu.n l> wrote in message
> news:wzy8qsfqe6 .fsf@ordesa.cs. uu.nl...
>[color=green]
> > So what will happen to the X Window system, often referred to as
> > XWindows.[/color][/color]

For the nth time, it isn't referred to as XWindows in any official or
meaningful sense.
[color=blue]
> Isn't there a consortium or something, with much more resources ($$$) to
> fight than Julian and Robin have?[/color]

Yes, it's called Sun Microsystems who used the OpenWindows name ages
ago:

An Error Occurred: Not Found

http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote/open-look/01-general/faq-doc-1.html

I guess Microsoft aren't up for yet more protracted legal action
involving Sun, so they go for the small guy instead.

[...]
[color=blue]
> It is a complement to Julian and Robin that MS noticed them enough to
> threaten and negotiate with them. Also that they did not just cave but
> negotiated a 6 month transition period and $ for transition costs.[/color]

Microsoft deserves no compliments whatsoever. This is just a case of a
company blatantly misusing a generic term which they've been told they
can't even enforce as a trademark in the United States, surfing
different legal systems in order to find places where they can carry
out acts reminiscent of extortion on legitimate activities and
businesses, and then bullying small outfits who can't afford to argue
for any substantial period of lawyer time.

For once, the United States is actually a beacon of sanity in all
this. There's Lindows being issued with injunctions all over the
planet for the use of a name which resembles Windows; there's the
bloke behind Mobilix being forced to change his site's name to
TuxMobil because the publishers of Asterix think they own every name
ending with "ix". The only positive thing about the former case is
that Michael Robertson seems to know enough about public relations to
make every aggressive move by Microsoft an embarrassment for them
whilst raising the profile of his own business.

So, how is it a compliment that a corporation waits several years
before jumping on an now-established project whose name doesn't really
infringe on any reasonable trademark? How does threatening behaviour
deserve any compliment whatsoever?

Paul

**Piet van Oostrum** · Jul 18 '05, 08:46 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

>>>>> Ken Godee <ken@perfect-image.com> (KG) wrote:

KG> 1. The X window systems name is not "X Windows", it is simply
KG> 'X' or 'X11' . Just alot of people wrongly call it Xwindows.

I know. Therefore I said "often referred to as XWindows".
But in fact that could arouse Microsofts anger, so that they also might
attack the name 'X Window System'.
By the way, I think just X or X11 isn't an official name either. And
especially X is now confusing with Mac OS X around.

KG> 2. I'm not defending MS in anyway, but if one doesn't
KG> defend it's trade mark it will become non defendable
KG> and you must defend it against all, not pick and choose.
KG> Hell, look at what Harley Davidson's done in tha last
KG> couple of years. Trademarked/patented everything including
KG> the sound of thier scooters and they're defending it rigorously.
KG> Just try to open a motorcycle shop called something like "Hog Heaven" or
KG> anything with the name "Hog" in it and see how long before
KG> you get a letter, before the grand opening I'd bet.

The point is that "Windows" isn't a trademark, or at least shouldn't be
because it's too generic. "MS Windows" or "Microsoft Windows", OK.
The same was the case with DOS: many people called MS-DOS just "DOS",
although there were other DOSses around.

I think they shouldn't be allowed to hijack the name "Windows". And neither
"Word" or "Office" for that matter.
--
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.n l>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP]
Private email: P.van.Oostrum@h ccnet.nl

**Thomas Heller** · Jul 18 '05, 08:46 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.n l> writes:
[color=blue]
> The point is that "Windows" isn't a trademark, or at least shouldn't be
> because it's too generic. "MS Windows" or "Microsoft Windows", OK.
> The same was the case with DOS: many people called MS-DOS just "DOS",
> although there were other DOSses around.
>
> I think they shouldn't be allowed to hijack the name "Windows". And neither
> "Word" or "Office" for that matter.[/color]

MS isn't alone in doeing this. Here in germany, we have the case that
the 'Telekom' is trying to hijack both the letter 'T' and the color
magenta.

Strange times...

Thomas

**Terry Reedy** · Jul 18 '05, 08:47 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

"Paul Boddie" <paul@boddie.ne t> wrote in message
news:23891c90.0 402250227.7d078 49f@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> "Terry Reedy" <tjreedy@udel.e du> wrote in message[/color]
news:<mailman.5 7.1077648520.85 94.python-list@python.org >...[color=blue]
> I guess Microsoft aren't up for yet more protracted legal action
> involving Sun, so they go for the small guy instead.[/color]

Exactly
[color=blue][color=green]
> > It is a complement to Julian and Robin that MS noticed them enough to
> > threaten and negotiate with them. Also that they did not just cave but
> > negotiated a 6 month transition period and $ for transition costs.[/color]
>
> Microsoft deserves no compliments whatsoever.[/color]
.....[color=blue]
> So, how is it a compliment that a corporation waits several years
> before jumping on an now-established project whose name doesn't really
> infringe on any reasonable trademark? How does threatening behaviour
> deserve any compliment whatsoever?[/color]

It does not and I did not and I do not see how you could think so from my
praising Julian and Robin.

Terry J. Reedy

**Asun Friere** · Jul 18 '05, 08:47 AM

Re: wxWindows changes name

Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.n l> wrote in message news:<wzwu6b4b0 k.fsf@ordesa.cs .uu.nl>...[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>>> Ken Godee <ken@perfect-image.com> (KG) wrote:[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> The point is that "Windows" isn't a trademark, or at least shouldn't be
> because it's too generic. "MS Windows" or "Microsoft Windows", OK.
> The same was the case with DOS: many people called MS-DOS just "DOS",
> although there were other DOSses around.
>
> I think they shouldn't be allowed to hijack the name "Windows". And neither
> "Word" or "Office" for that matter.[/color]

I think you misuderstand the concept of 'genericity' as it applies to
trademark law (though I should stress I don't have my law degree from
a US institution, so there might be some differences there). Perhaps
I'm misreading you, but you seem to imply that because a word is in
common use it cannot function as a trademark. This is not so.

Generally a trademark must be (in the terminology of my jurisdicition)
'sufficiently adapted to distinguish' the product from other products
in its class. The test is whether other vendors of that product would
want to use that term in regard to that product. Eg if you are
selling fish the term 'ocean' wouldn't be sufficiently adapted to
distinguish, but the term 'door' might be (ie you shouldn't be able to
trademark 'Ocean Fish(tm),' but 'Door Fish(tm)' should be fine.)
Similarly you /shouldn't/ be able to trademark 'Digital Computers(tm)'
(Aha!), but 'Gateway Computers(tm)' would seem to be OK. It is
arguable that 'Windows' is sufficiently adapted to distinguish one
operating system from another, certainly it is far better than 'Disk
Operating System,' sans the 'MS-.'

Additionally you have to consider the special protection afforded to
'well known brands' under the IP annexes to the WTO treaty, which will
work very nicely in M$'s favour.

A trademark becomes 'generic' on the other hand, when a trademark
enters into the language to such an extent that it cannot function as
a trademark any longer. Arguable the word 'Hoover' (verb and noun),
for vacuum cleaner, or vacuuming, in the UK, has become generic.
Meaning that theoretically (I wouldn't try it), any manufacturery
could produce a 'hoover.' The fear of genericity explains why Xerox
launched a big campaign to introduce the word 'photocopying' (instead
of 'xeroxing'), and indeed this gem from Adobe:

http://www.adobe.com/misc/trade.html#photoshop

wxWindows changes name

wxWindows changes name

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