wxPython worries

[James Goldwater]

I'm starting a new hopfully-commercial project soon, and I face a
dilemma about whether Python with wxPython would be appropriate.

The project has 3 main areas:

a) manipulation of lists and trees, using..
b) a hopefully dead-sexy gui, all in order to...
c) eventually pump out certain bits of the datastructure over the
network in semi-realtime (< 10ms accuracy or so).

The target is Win32 for now (98 - XP). Now, if it were up to me, I'd use
Delphi - it's what I know best. But I'm working with a less experienced
developer with whom I have no languages in common. He's keen to get
started on C#, I've toyed with C# and though it looks easy, I don't see
any major gains over what I already know.

I've read a lot about python and done some mini-stuff in it, and been
impressed with it's ease and conciseness. What worries me is wxPython:
looking at the demo code, it's quite verbose and 'bitty'. I'm also
unclear as to how easy custom controls are to build.

Am I just being confused by my newbie-ness, or are my initial concerns
justified? What's anybody else's experiences with gui programming in
wxPython like vs a RAD like Delphi or .NET?

Thanks,

James.

[Guyon Morée]

Re: wxPython worries

I've got the same worries, but I'm still not really convinced...
boa-constructor is nice... but not there yet


"James Goldwater" <james@eccehomo .co.uk> wrote in message
news:mailman.35 2.1074092092.12 720.python-list@python.org ...[color=blue]
> I'm starting a new hopfully-commercial project soon, and I face a
> dilemma about whether Python with wxPython would be appropriate.
>
> The project has 3 main areas:
>
> a) manipulation of lists and trees, using..
> b) a hopefully dead-sexy gui, all in order to...
> c) eventually pump out certain bits of the datastructure over the
> network in semi-realtime (< 10ms accuracy or so).
>
> The target is Win32 for now (98 - XP). Now, if it were up to me, I'd use
> Delphi - it's what I know best. But I'm working with a less experienced
> developer with whom I have no languages in common. He's keen to get
> started on C#, I've toyed with C# and though it looks easy, I don't see
> any major gains over what I already know.
>
> I've read a lot about python and done some mini-stuff in it, and been
> impressed with it's ease and conciseness. What worries me is wxPython:
> looking at the demo code, it's quite verbose and 'bitty'. I'm also
> unclear as to how easy custom controls are to build.
>
> Am I just being confused by my newbie-ness, or are my initial concerns
> justified? What's anybody else's experiences with gui programming in
> wxPython like vs a RAD like Delphi or .NET?
>
> Thanks,
>
> James.
>
>[/color]

[Lars Heuer]

Re: wxPython worries

Hello again,

Forgot to mention SPE (uses the mentioned wxGlade):

http://spe.pycs.net/

Maybe this tool is more "IDE"-like. ;)

Regards,
Lars

[Lars Heuer]

Re: wxPython worries

Hello Guyon,
[color=blue]
> I've got the same worries, but I'm still not really convinced...
> boa-constructor is nice... but not there yet[/color]

There's another free tool:

wxGlade

http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/

Commercial tools:
wxDesigner:

http://www.roebling.de/

DialogBlocks:

http://www.anthemion.co.uk/dialogblocks/

Maybe some of these tools fit your needs. I've no deep experience with
them all. :)

HTH,
Lars

[Joe Francia]

Re: wxPython worries

James Goldwater wrote:[color=blue]
> I'm starting a new hopfully-commercial project soon, and I face a
> dilemma about whether Python with wxPython would be appropriate.
>
> The project has 3 main areas:
>
> a) manipulation of lists and trees, using..
> b) a hopefully dead-sexy gui, all in order to...
> c) eventually pump out certain bits of the datastructure over the
> network in semi-realtime (< 10ms accuracy or so).
>
> The target is Win32 for now (98 - XP). Now, if it were up to me, I'd use
> Delphi - it's what I know best. But I'm working with a less experienced
> developer with whom I have no languages in common. He's keen to get
> started on C#, I've toyed with C# and though it looks easy, I don't see
> any major gains over what I already know.
>
> I've read a lot about python and done some mini-stuff in it, and been
> impressed with it's ease and conciseness. What worries me is wxPython:
> looking at the demo code, it's quite verbose and 'bitty'. I'm also
> unclear as to how easy custom controls are to build.
>
> Am I just being confused by my newbie-ness, or are my initial concerns
> justified? What's anybody else's experiences with gui programming in
> wxPython like vs a RAD like Delphi or .NET?
>
> Thanks,
>
> James.
>[/color]

I share your concerns with wxPython - it's a good, powerful toolkit, but
it lacks consistent and clear documentation, and a decent screen painter
(wxGlade probably is the most complete).

If you have the budget (USD 399 per developer), you may want look at
BlackAdder from The Kompany. It uses the PyQt bindings for the Qt
toolkit, which I find to be a bit better than wxPython/wxWindows, a bit
more polished and consistent. The package includes the BlackAdder
editor, the QtDesigner, PyQt docs and a license to redistribute the PyQt
libraries for win32 (which is really what you're paying for - most of
this is available for free on GPL'ed systems).

Another option is to extend/embed Python with Delphi; specifically, use
Delphi for the GUI, and Python for the logic. There's some Delphi
bindings and documentation here:

http://membres.lycos.fr/marat/delphi/python.htm

http://www.atug.com/andypatterns/pythonDelphiTalk.htm

[PT]

Re: wxPython worries

> What worries me is wxPython:[color=blue]
> I'm also
> unclear as to how easy custom controls are to build.[/color]

None of the Python GUI toolkits support making good custom controls as
well as Java and .NET do. TKinter is probably the best Python option
for that. If you are comfortable with Windows programming though,
wxPython will not be too difficult.
[color=blue]
> Am I just being confused by my newbie-ness, or are my initial concerns
> justified? What's anybody else's experiences with gui programming in
> wxPython like vs a RAD like Delphi or .NET?[/color]

If you want something similar to Delphi or .NET, then you would
probably like QT Designer much better than the wx options. See
BlackAdder (Win, $$) or eric3 (Linux, free):

http://www.thekompany.com/products/blackadder/

http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html

If money isn't an issue though, just stick with Visual Studio and C#
and let the other guy do most of the work.

[Jarek Zgoda]

Re: wxPython worries

James Goldwater <james@eccehomo .co.uk> pisze:
[color=blue]
> The target is Win32 for now (98 - XP). Now, if it were up to me, I'd use
> Delphi - it's what I know best. But I'm working with a less experienced
> developer with whom I have no languages in common. He's keen to get
> started on C#, I've toyed with C# and though it looks easy, I don't see
> any major gains over what I already know.[/color]

I love Delphi but I would choose Python for simplicity, flexibility and
library (will not mention that it works on AS/400, the best
minicomputer(!) ever made).

But I'm rather guerilla guy and mainstream makes me sick.

(NP: The Pogues - Sally MacLennane)

--
Jarek Zgoda
Unregistered Linux User #-1
http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zgoda-a-chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/

[James Goldwater]

Re: wxPython worries

It's not the RADdish-ness (is that a word?) - drag'n'drop, property
assignment etc - that concerns me, it's the ease of gui building - by
hand is fine (oh how I've come to 'love' Java's layout managers...)

Custom controls is the biggie then. I think I'll have a punt at building
a custom control in wxPython to see if it's even feasible. Anybody want
an arbitrary-angled triangular-wedge button? (My first custom control
in Delphi version 1, all those years back...)

PT wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>What worries me is wxPython:
>>I'm also
>>unclear as to how easy custom controls are to build.[/color]
>
>
> None of the Python GUI toolkits support making good custom controls as
> well as Java and .NET do. TKinter is probably the best Python option
> for that. If you are comfortable with Windows programming though,
> wxPython will not be too difficult.
>
>[color=green]
>>Am I just being confused by my newbie-ness, or are my initial concerns
>>justified? What's anybody else's experiences with gui programming in
>>wxPython like vs a RAD like Delphi or .NET?[/color]
>
>
> If you want something similar to Delphi or .NET, then you would
> probably like QT Designer much better than the wx options. See
> BlackAdder (Win, $$) or eric3 (Linux, free):
> http://www.thekompany.com/products/blackadder/
> http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html
>
> If money isn't an issue though, just stick with Visual Studio and C#
> and let the other guy do most of the work.[/color]

--
James Goldwater
I.T. Consultant
020 8949 7927 (mobile 078 999 55 265)

GPG Key: A2137B98 (pgp.mit.edu)

[дамјан г.]

[OT] AS/400

[color=blue]
> (will not mention that it works on AS/400, the best
> minicomputer(!) ever made).[/color]

Why is it the best minicomputer ever made?
I really want to know!


--
Дамјан (jabberID:damja n@bagra.net.mk)

To boldly go where I surely don't belong.

[John J. Lee]

Re: wxPython worries

James Goldwater <james@eccehomo .co.uk> writes:
[color=blue]
> It's not the RADdish-ness (is that a word?) - drag'n'drop, property
> assignment etc - that concerns me, it's the ease of gui building - by
> hand is fine (oh how I've come to 'love' Java's layout managers...)[/color]

I'll make my usual comment, which is that nobody has yet contradicted
me (unusual on USENET ;-) that Qt is the most well-designed Python GUI
framework. (Qt Designer is very good, too.)

And, strangely, the PyQt commercial license is far cheaper than (C++)
Qt. $400 for former (Blackadder, from theKompany.com) , $2500-odd for
the latter!

(before somebody asks: no, you *don't* need both licenses -- only the
cheap one from theKompany, who have an agreement with trolltech)

I believe Blackadder comes with Python-specific docs for PyQt, but
they're actually completely redundant, IMHO -- it's trivial to
translate the C++ docs to Python code, using the list of exceptions
distributed with PyQt. Another BTW: their FAQ page still says
Blackadder is in beta, but I think somebody here mentioned the final
version was actually released some while back (PyQt itself has been
stable for years, of course).

[color=blue]
> Custom controls is the biggie then. I think I'll have a punt at[/color]
[...]

PyQt is certainly good at this.


John

[Joe Francia]

Re: wxPython worries

John J. Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> I'll make my usual comment, which is that nobody has yet contradicted
> me (unusual on USENET ;-) that Qt is the most well-designed Python GUI
> framework. (Qt Designer is very good, too.)[/color]

I'll second that, and go as far as to say it's a very good GUI framework
no matter how you speak to it.
[color=blue]
> And, strangely, the PyQt commercial license is far cheaper than (C++)
> Qt. $400 for former (Blackadder, from theKompany.com) , $2500-odd for
> the latter![/color]

$400 is for preofessional use. For personal use, it's $80, but you lose
the right to distribute your apps (but maybe not if you release them
under the GPL - I should look into that).
[color=blue]
> I believe Blackadder comes with Python-specific docs for PyQt, but
> they're actually completely redundant, IMHO -- it's trivial to
> translate the C++ docs to Python code, using the list of exceptions
> distributed with PyQt.[/color]

You do get a copy of the docs with your BA purchase. The Kompany also
sells the PyQt docs separately for $20 for a one-time purchase, or $70
for a yearly subscription; that is, all updates for one year are included.

Another BTW: their FAQ page still says[color=blue]
> Blackadder is in beta, but I think somebody here mentioned the final
> version was actually released some while back (PyQt itself has been
> stable for years, of course).[/color]

It is indeed stable. The one thing I don't like about BlackAdder is
BlackAdder itself, the editor portion. It's not terrible - it just
doesn't behave quite like I expect a dedicated Python editor to behave.
I usually create my GUI in the Qt Designer, and then edit the Python
stuff in Eric (Linux) or SciTE (win32).

[Jarek Zgoda]

Re: [OT] AS/400

?????? ? <mk@net.mail.pe nguinista> pisze:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> (will not mention that it works on AS/400, the best
>> minicomputer(!) ever made).[/color]
>
> Why is it the best minicomputer ever made?
> I really want to know![/color]

Since nobody ever produced any other. Only IBM produced machines that
can be called "midrange" (something between microcomputer and "real
computer", the famous S/390 mainframe). They still use this terminology.

--
Jarek Zgoda
Unregistered Linux User #-1
http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zgoda-a-chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/

[Cameron Laird]

Re: [OT] AS/400

In article <bu6l68$8uv$1@a tlantis.news.tp i.pl>,
Jarek Zgoda <jzgoda@gazeta. usun.pl> wrote:[color=blue]
>?????? ? <mk@net.mail.pe nguinista> pisze:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> (will not mention that it works on AS/400, the best
>>> minicomputer(!) ever made).[/color]
>>
>> Why is it the best minicomputer ever made?
>> I really want to know![/color]
>
>Since nobody ever produced any other. Only IBM produced machines that
>can be called "midrange" (something between microcomputer and "real
>computer", the famous S/390 mainframe). They still use this terminology.[/color]

[Cousin Stanley]

Re: [OT] AS/400

> Why is it the best minicomputer ever made?[color=blue]
> I really want to know![/color]

| Since nobody ever produced any other.
| Only IBM produced machines that can be called "midrange"
| (something between microcomputer and "real computer",
| the famous S/390 mainframe). They still use this terminology.

Jarek ....

Honeywell also produced a line of mid-range machines
called the Level 6 minicomputers ....

These machines ran an operating system
which had an internal architecture
and command line interface different from,
but vaguely similar, to Multics, a Honeywell mainframe OS ....

Multics was a major predecessor of Unix,
a euphemism for Multics Without Balls
deemed so by the original developers themselves ....

Without Multics there might not be
any such thing as Unix or Linux ....

You can find the history of Multics at ....

http://www.multicians.org

--
Cousin Stanley
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

[Skip Montanaro]

Re: [OT] AS/400

[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> (will not mention that it works on AS/400, the best minicomputer(!)
>>> ever made).[/color]
>>
>> Why is it the best minicomputer ever made? I really want to know![/color][/color]

Jarek> Since nobody ever produced any other. Only IBM produced machines
Jarek> that can be called "midrange" (something between microcomputer
Jarek> and "real computer", the famous S/390 mainframe). They still use
Jarek> this terminology.

You seem to be forgetting (at least) DEC's VAX line of computers. Data
General and PR1ME had computers classed as "mini" computers also. I'm sure
there were others.

Skip