Save the pythons.

[f29]

I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
before. Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
java.
Python power is in it's syntax, not addons. Let's not copy perl's
experience and one java is already far too much for earth.

f29

[Gilles Lenfant]

Re: Save the pythons.

"f29" <f29@gazeta.p l> a écrit dans le message de
news:aeaacf65.0 312171345.4267f 213@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
> before. Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> java.
> Python power is in it's syntax, not addons. Let's not copy perl's
> experience and one java is already far too much for earth.
>
> f29[/color]

Where's the problem ?

$ rm /usr/local/lib/python4.5/[type your useless packages here]

--
Gilles

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Save the pythons.

f29 wrote:[color=blue]
> I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
> before. Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> java.
> Python power is in it's syntax, not addons. Let's not copy perl's
> experience and one java is already far too much for earth.
>
> f29[/color]

Too big. Won't work.

[Ben Finney]

Re: Save the pythons.

On 17 Dec 2003 13:45:39 -0800, f29 wrote:[color=blue]
> I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> java.[/color]

This is, on the face of it, a falsity: Java is Java, Python is Python.
If you mean that Python is gaining traits of other languages, then
that's a normal and natural process in the evolution of a language
(whether computer-bound or human-bound).

It only becomes a point worth discussing if the traits being gained are
undesirable; and *that* is a matter for subjective discussion.
[color=blue]
> Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than before.
> Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting from
> each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> java.[/color]

None of the packages in the standard library occupy more than disk space
until they are imported. If you want a cut-down standard library, you
have the source available to build it however you want. These two
traits, certainly the latter, make Python better than Java.
[color=blue]
> Python power is in it's syntax, not addons.[/color]

Indeed. Very few changes occur to the simple Python syntax in each
release; that is, as you say, its power.
[color=blue]
> Let's not copy perl's experience[/color]

I don't understand this point; are you saying that Python's syntax is
changing undesirably? You've only mentioned increasing volume of
classes, not changes to the langauge syntax. I don't see how you can
fear that Python will "copy Perl's experience".
[color=blue]
> and one java is already far too much for earth.[/color]

I think the undesirable traits of Java are avoided in Python.

- Java is not free software. Python is. (Most of the other
differences stem from this one, as free software allows people to
make changes primarily based on technical merit if they choose.)

- Java's standard library and development environment are increasingly
tightly controlled by Sun, and nobody else can have input into the
development of the language and library. Python's development is
community-driven, with a BDFL at the helm.

- Java's large class library is typically distributed as binary blobs
that are difficult to divide. Python's standard library is all
separate packages, most of it implemented as Python source code.
Removing a package is as simple as deleting the files, or (more
neatly) rebuilding the library from source without the package.

- Java's syntax is simpler than C++, but it still strives to be like
that behemoth. Python, as you've pointed out, has a clean syntax
that doesn't accumulate cruft.

As for "each new version is fully equipped with more [packages] than
before", I see that as an advantage, especially since anyone can decide
to rebuild without any unwanted packages. Also, the cruft gets cleaned
out fairly regularly; if a package is better re-done or re-implemented
in another, newer package, the old one is deprecated and eventually
disappears.

--
\ "The best is the enemy of the good." -- Voltaire |
`\ |
_o__) |
Ben Finney <http://bignose.squidly .org/>

[Hans Nowak]

Re: Save the pythons.

f29 wrote:[color=blue]
> I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
> before.[/color]

A bit harsh to put it that way, but yeah, the language is growing, as most
languages tend to do. It would be nice to see it shrink sometime, although
that would have its own set of drawbacks, like breaking backward compatibility.
Maybe in Python 3.0...
[color=blue]
> Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> java.[/color]

Python's standard library hasn't quite reached the size of Java's, though.
[color=blue]
> Python power is in it's syntax, not addons.[/color]

Hmm, everything else being equal, I'd much rather see a new module than yet
another addition to the syntax.

--
Hans (hans@zephyrfal con.org)

http://zephyrfalcon.org/

[Paul Rubin]

Re: Save the pythons.

Hans Nowak <hans@zephyrfal con.org> writes:[color=blue][color=green]
> > Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> > from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant
> > situation to java.[/color]
>
> Python's standard library hasn't quite reached the size of Java's, though.[/color]

I think it's less an issue of library size, than tasteless design.
Java's libraries really seems to take OO obsession to unhealthy
lengths. I think there's some truth to the notion that Python is
getting that disease a little bit. It's often more convenient to pass
a function to some module (e.g. a callback), than to subclass a
library class, but Java programmers want to do stuff by subclassing
anyway. You can see something similar in the Python urllib class
(to provide an http basic auth password you have to make a subclass)
or in the SocketServer library.

[Lutz Horn]

Re: Save the pythons.

Hi,

* Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalid> [18 Dez 2003]:[color=blue]
> I think it's less an issue of library size, than tasteless design.
> Java's libraries really seems to take OO obsession to unhealthy
> lengths. I think there's some truth to the notion that Python is
> getting that disease a little bit. It's often more convenient to
> pass a function to some module (e.g. a callback), than to subclass
> a library class, but Java programmers want to do stuff by
> subclassing anyway.[/color]

Not exactly. Implementing an Interface is much cleaner than
subclassing.

Lutz
--
no sig

[Gilles Lenfant]

Re: Save the pythons.


"Bruno Desthuilliers" <bdesth.tagada@ tsoin-tsoin.free.fr> a écrit dans le
message de news:3fe0e2af$0 $24024$626a54ce @news.free.fr.. .[color=blue]
> f29 wrote:[color=green]
> > I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> > java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
> > before. Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> > from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> > java.
> > Python power is in it's syntax, not addons. Let's not copy perl's
> > experience and one java is already far too much for earth.
> >
> > f29[/color]
>
> Too big. Won't work.
>[/color]

Worked anyway :)

--
Gilles

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Re: Save the pythons.

Gilles Lenfant wrote:[color=blue]
> "Bruno Desthuilliers" <bdesth.tagada@ tsoin-tsoin.free.fr> a écrit dans le
> message de news:3fe0e2af$0 $24024$626a54ce @news.free.fr.. .
>[color=green]
>>f29 wrote:[/color][/color]
(snip troll)
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Too big. Won't work.
>>[/color]
>
>
> Worked anyway :)
>[/color]
Yes :(
I guess it's time for a general troll'o'meter revision.

[f29]

Re: Save the pythons.

Certainly, I did not mean that python's standard library is something
we should forget and abandon, but even despite python is fully
embodying the oo idea, it should not become such mess as java - with a
complete chaos of classes derieved from nowhere and well known 'unknow
exception at java.class1.cla ss2.class3.subc lass43.class4 on line
35147' (seen nowadays even on the www).
I am simply worried, that in few years we may see such error messages
in python, due to it's classes incompatibility and version
differences. That's all.

rgds,
f29

[Martin Michel]

Re: Save the pythons.

Save the Pythons. Give 'em Rubies, Coffee and Camel :)

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

Re: Save the pythons.

Martin Michel fed this fish to the penguins on Friday 19 December 2003
05:41 am:
[color=blue]
>
>
> Save the Pythons. Give 'em Rubies, Coffee and Camel :)
>
>[/color]

Ack, the imagery.... a jittery/nervous, jewel-encrusted, serpent that
spits in your face...

--[color=blue]
> =============== =============== =============== =============== == <
> wlfraed@ix.netc om.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
> wulfraed@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
> =============== =============== =============== =============== == <
> Bestiaria Home Page: http://www.beastie.dm.net/ <
> Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/ <[/color]

[Dave Benjamin]

Re: Save the pythons.

In article <aeaacf65.03121 71345.4267f213@ posting.google. com>, f29 wrote:[color=blue]
> I don't believe that noone has yet spotted that python is becoming
> java. Each new version is fully equipped with more garbage than
> before. Classes are great, but once there are 1000 of them, inheriting
> from each other, I cannot avoid comparing this unpleasant situation to
> java.[/color]

Python's not becoming Java. It's too busy becoming LISP. If it appears that
Python is becoming Java, it's only because Java is becoming LISP, too. There
are 1000s of classes of languages, each inheriting from LISP. It's just a
matter of how many methods they override, and this number is asymptotically
approaching zero.
[color=blue]
> Python power is in it's syntax, not addons. Let's not copy perl's
> experience and one java is already far too much for earth.[/color]

Great. Let's feature-freeze Python now. That way, when Java has finally
become LISP, Python will still be Python. Of course, we'll all be using LISP
by then, but it'll be a fine piece of nostalgia to keep on an old hard drive
in the garage.

--
..:[ dave benjamin (ramenboy) -:- www.ramenfest.com -:- www.3dex.com ]:.
: d r i n k i n g l i f e o u t o f t h e c o n t a i n e r :