What GUI toolkit looks the best?

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

John Roth wrote:
[color=blue]
> And that is what is called a "real good question." I believe that
> you're supposed to be able to use the Tk libraries without using
> TCL, but the people that wrote Tkinter weren't able to make it
> work.[/color]

Tk comes with lots of configuration code and widget bindings
implemented in Tcl.

Tk also uses many pieces of the Tcl C library.

both parts can surely be replaced; someone just has to do it
(or pay for it).

</F>

[Cameron Laird]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

In article <7xad5z1jq5.fsf @ruckus.brouhah a.com>,
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.i nvalid> wrote:

[Carl]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Paul Rubin wrote:
[color=blue]
> I've been approached about writing a Windows app which will need a
> really professional looking GUI. Forget TKinter, this has to actually
> look good (real artists will be available to get the visual stuff
> right). Assuming I write in Python, what's the best toolkit to use?
> Some cost in implementation pain is tolerable if the finished
> interface looks better as a result. It would be nice if the toolkit
> runs on multiple platforms rather than being Windows-only.
>
> I'm thinking Glade. Is that reasonable? I don't know squat about
> Windows and haven't done much fancy GUI programming since the early X
> days.
>
> Thanks.[/color]

What's wrong with Jython? I haven't used it myself, but have always wondered
why it's not mentioned when different Python GUI:s are discussed.

Carl

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Cameron Laird wrote:
[color=blue]
> Guido certainly has the ability to do a low-level binding
> to Tk (and I know someone did, on an experimental basis,
> in the mid-'90s--was that he?)[/color]

david ascher, based on brian warkentine's Rivet project. you can
find traces of that project here (search for Trinket):

http://py.vaults.ca/parnassus/apyllo.py/808292924.247038364.200301646

http://archive.dstc.edu.au/python/python/Contributed.html#Graphics

(but don't expect the links on those pages to work)

</F>

[Dave Brueck]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Edward wrote:[color=blue]
> I have a lot of experience with both wxPython and Tkinter. I would urge
> caution regarding any quick judgments. All cross-platform toolkits have
> significant bugs and design flaws.
>
> My experience is that Tkinter is the "least bad" and more flexible.
> wxPython (of course) inherits all the _many_ bugs in wxWindows.
> It's not clear that wxWindows really actually works.[/color]

Isn't that last sentence a bit overly FUD-ish? Whether or not wxWindows is
better or worse than Tkinter is beside the point - many successful applications
are built on top of wxWindows and wxPython, so it's quite clear that it does
actually work.

-Dave

[Andrew Barilla]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

I'm working on a cross platform app which has a standard GUI front end
for administration and a kiosk front end for user usage. I'm using
wxWindows for the standard GUI and it does port between Windows and
Linux without a problem. The only significant difference I've seen is
that MDI applications in Linux don't look like the do in Windows.
Each child window shows up maximized in the parent window and there
are tabs across the top to switch between children. This just maybe
the default format and can be changed, but I haven't looked into it
yet.

For the kiosk I'm using PyGame which ports between Windows and Linux
just as well.

Andrew Barilla

http://www.exit66.com/

[Brian Kelley]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Edward K. Ream wrote:[color=blue]
> I have a lot of experience with both wxPython and Tkinter. I would urge
> caution regarding any quick judgments. All cross-platform toolkits have
> significant bugs and design flaws.
>
> My experience is that Tkinter is the "least bad" and more flexible.
> wxPython (of course) inherits all the _many_ bugs in wxWindows. It's not
> clear that wxWindows really actually works. Whenever I use
> wxPython/wxWindows I find more bugs in a week than I have found in 3+ years
> with Tk/Tkinter. YMMV. The (admittedly very cool) wxPython demo regularly
> segfaults on Windows. Sheesh.[/color]

That's very interesting. I've never had the wxPython demos segfault on
windows, and I use it regularly (2 years) to examine various widgets. I
wonder if your setup or mine is the "special case" :)
[color=blue]
> The main point is that some real experimentation (and risk!) is going to be
> required for any significant project. You may as well budget some time for
> frustration: it _is_ going to be there.[/color]

Absolutely. The main attraction for me was wxWindows grid widget. I
use it to browser databases with 1,000,000+ entries.
[color=blue]
> Just one example of what you might expect. My app uses a Text widget in
> many non-trivial ways. Both Tkinter/Tk and wxPython/wxWindows have
> seemingly minor, but actually _major_ problems with Text widgets.[/color]

I hate wxPython's text widget for most of the reasons you described.
Plus, since we are using python, why isn't there a .write(...) method
for these widgets? Why can't I use a text widget like:

sys.stdout = TextCtrl(parent )

I had to make a wrapper around the text widget to make it behave like a
StringIO() class. It internally did all the necessary conversions to
the strings, but now I can use

widget.write()
widget.read()
widget.readline s()
widget.seek()

for line in widget:
pass

And the bastardication
print >> widget, file.read()

as if it were a real file object.

The interface to formatted text was a pain though. I still don't have a
good way of greating formatting except to say that it is in parallel
with the text stream.

Brian

[Brian Kelley]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Cameron Laird wrote:
[color=blue]
> I want to say a few words about portability and comparisons.
>
> I'm very reluctant to advise "see what you like the best" in regard to
> GUI toolkits
> <URL: http://www.informit.com/content/inde...2F70A0695E0%7D >
> the way I do for high-level languages. We all know it's entirely
> realistic to counsel a newcomer, "Give yourself an hour, and you can
> download and install Python (or Perl, or Ruby, or ...) and try it out
> for yourself. You'll get a good first impression of how the language
> operates."[/color]

That's not quite what I meant. The first step (for me) is finding out
what the toolkit supports. For example, tcl/Tk doesn't have a good grid
widget out of the box so for my project it was a non-starter which left
Qt, wxPython and GTK+
[color=blue]
> <URL: http://www.scriptics.com/ > isn't the URL I recommend; Scriptics
> stopped doing business under that name three and a half years ago. <URL:
> http://wiki.tcl.tk/tk > is a safe choice.[/color]

I would recommend http://www.tcl.tk/ actually which points to the same
place as http://www.scriptics.com/

Brian

[Edward K. Ream]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

> > My experience is that Tkinter is the "least bad" and more flexible.[color=blue][color=green]
> > wxPython (of course) inherits all the _many_ bugs in wxWindows.
> > It's not clear that wxWindows really actually works.[/color]
>
> Isn't that last sentence a bit overly FUD-ish?[/color]

Umm. Maybe you are right.

My main point, and I think it is important, is that wxWindows seems
significantly flakier than Tk. Much more than Tk, the wxWindows experience
is "design once, debug everywhere".

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
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[Edward K. Ream]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

> that's why you should design your own leo widget:[color=blue]
>
> http://effbot.org/zone/wck.htm
>
> half-serious-ly yrs /F[/color]

Thanks for this link. I'll look into it.

Edward
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
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[Peter Hansen]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Brian Kelley wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I hate wxPython's text widget for most of the reasons you described.
> Plus, since we are using python, why isn't there a .write(...) method
> for these widgets? Why can't I use a text widget like:
>
> sys.stdout = TextCtrl(parent )
>
> I had to make a wrapper around the text widget to make it behave like a
> StringIO() class. It internally did all the necessary conversions to
> the strings, but now I can use ...[/color]

Probably the reason the text widget doesn't already do those things is
that nobody has taken the time to make it happen *and* release the changes
back to the project. Is Robin Dunn supposed to think of and write all
these things himself, just for your benefit?

-Peter

[Brian Kelley]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

Peter Hansen wrote:[color=blue]
> Probably the reason the text widget doesn't already do those things is
> that nobody has taken the time to make it happen *and* release the changes
> back to the project. Is Robin Dunn supposed to think of and write all
> these things himself, just for your benefit?[/color]

That's a bit rough considering I give back quite a bit to the wxPython
community. Most of the useful things that I have written I have given
back to wxPython. A short resume includes PyGTK/Glade tutorial and Dr.
Dobbs article, WizardTransitio nPages, grid_MegaExampl e, etc. Some made
it into the distribution, some didn't.

I don't even know if this is a sane interface. When I said "why isn't
there a .write(...) method for these widgets? Why can't I use a text
widget like<a file stream>" that wasn't a specious Robin should do this
for me question. It really was more like, is this a way a text widget
should behave?

I also wan't just talking about wxPython, non-pythonic behavior exists
across the board wxPython/Tk/Qt/Gtk. Is it worth the effort to make a
text widget behave like a file stream, I'm not sure. I'm certainly not
going to force this down someone's throat, but when I'm happy with it
I'll release it.

Andrew Dalke wrote a good piece in the Dr. Dobb's 25th anniversary
article about the pythonification of C toolkits that I think is pretty
good reference for these types of discussions.

Brian

[Oren Tirosh]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

On Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 06:46:49PM +0100, Carl wrote:[color=blue]
> Paul Rubin wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I've been approached about writing a Windows app which will need a
> > really professional looking GUI. Forget TKinter, this has to actually
> > look good (real artists will be available to get the visual stuff
> > right). Assuming I write in Python, what's the best toolkit to use?
> > Some cost in implementation pain is tolerable if the finished
> > interface looks better as a result. It would be nice if the toolkit
> > runs on multiple platforms rather than being Windows-only.
> >
> > I'm thinking Glade. Is that reasonable? I don't know squat about
> > Windows and haven't done much fancy GUI programming since the early X
> > days.
> >
> > Thanks.[/color]
>
> What's wrong with Jython? I haven't used it myself, but have always wondered
> why it's not mentioned when different Python GUI:s are discussed.[/color]

Jython + SWT is a pretty cool combination. SWT is a well-designed, high
performance portable toolkit using native widgets. Python is our favorite
language. If they could be married without Java it would be even better.

Oren

[Max Slimmer]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

I have been using wxPython and it performs well ... You should also look
at Boa Constructor a GUI designer generates decent Python code,
integrated debugger is cool, shows local varraibles... for some uses I
find it better than winpython.


Paul Rubin wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian Kelley <bkelley@wi.mit .edu> writes:
>[color=green]
>>Why forget Tkinter? I've seen Tkinter applications that look
>>incredibly fabulous.[/color]
>
>
> Got any url's for screen shots?
>
>[color=green]
>>A lot depends on what you are trying to do. If
>>you are making a graphics-heavy application then Tkinter's canvas is
>>pretty sweet. I also think IDLE looks pretty good.[/color]
>
>
> There will be some graphical icons and stuff like that which people
> will click on, but no really heavy graphics or drawing tools in the
> sense of a photo editor or anything like that.
>
>[color=green]
>>Glade isn't a GUI, it is a GUI builder that uses GTK. In my
>>experience, GTK doesn't look quite right on windows boxes, especially
>>the menus. Of course I have the same basic view of Qt and Swing so
>>know you know my biases.[/color]
>
>
> Oh ok, I understand a bit better now.
>
>[color=green]
>>I tend to use Tkinter for canvas heavy applications and wxPython for
>>other stuff.[/color]
>
>
> Is wxPython Windows specific? I guess it is, but can I port the
> screen layouts to some comparable Linux toolkit or anything like that?
> The screen shots for it do look really nice.
>
>[color=green]
>>Here is my humble opinions in a nutshell (missing a lot here):
>>wxPython has a grid control to die for and many, many classes, good
>>printer support and looks like a native GTK app on Linux and a native
>>app on windows and macintosh.[/color]
>
>
> Oh wow, yes I guess it's cross platform then. Hmm, what Micro$oft
> tool do I need to build and run it? Is Visual C++ enough? I guess
> I can get the client to pay for some stuff like that. Also, is there
> a Glade-like drag and drop gui editor for it?
>
>[color=green]
>>Qt is better for developing - it has a better class structure and I
>>tend not to have to look up docs as often and can look really,
>>really nice.[/color]
>
>
> The KDE apps that I've seen look good but not really top notch. Maybe
> more attention could improve them. They're certainly good enough for
> practical use.
>
>[color=green]
>>Tkinter has a killer canvas and great postscript output. GTK is
>>really quite fast.[/color]
>
>
> I think I don't care about heavy duty graphics or more than rudimentary
> printing.
>
>[color=green]
>>but don't take my word for this, why don't you see what you like the best?
>>
>>http://www.wxpython.org/
>>http://www.gtk.org/
>>http://www.scriptics.com/
>>http://www.trolltech.com/[/color]
>
>
> I don't know what I can really tell from these without more experience
> with them. In particular, which is the most solid and reliable across
> a wide range of Windows versions (95, 98, ..., XP whatever)? That
> matters too.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul[/color]

[Max Slimmer]

Re: What GUI toolkit looks the best?

I have been using wxPython and it performs well ... You should also look
at Boa Constructor a GUI designer generates decent Python code,
integrated debugger is cool, shows local varraibles... for some uses I
find it better than winpython.


Paul Rubin wrote:[color=blue]
> Brian Kelley <bkelley@wi.mit .edu> writes:
>[color=green]
>>Why forget Tkinter? I've seen Tkinter applications that look
>>incredibly fabulous.[/color]
>
>
> Got any url's for screen shots?
>
>[color=green]
>>A lot depends on what you are trying to do. If
>>you are making a graphics-heavy application then Tkinter's canvas is
>>pretty sweet. I also think IDLE looks pretty good.[/color]
>
>
> There will be some graphical icons and stuff like that which people
> will click on, but no really heavy graphics or drawing tools in the
> sense of a photo editor or anything like that.
>
>[color=green]
>>Glade isn't a GUI, it is a GUI builder that uses GTK. In my
>>experience, GTK doesn't look quite right on windows boxes, especially
>>the menus. Of course I have the same basic view of Qt and Swing so
>>know you know my biases.[/color]
>
>
> Oh ok, I understand a bit better now.
>
>[color=green]
>>I tend to use Tkinter for canvas heavy applications and wxPython for
>>other stuff.[/color]
>
>
> Is wxPython Windows specific? I guess it is, but can I port the
> screen layouts to some comparable Linux toolkit or anything like that?
> The screen shots for it do look really nice.
>
>[color=green]
>>Here is my humble opinions in a nutshell (missing a lot here):
>>wxPython has a grid control to die for and many, many classes, good
>>printer support and looks like a native GTK app on Linux and a native
>>app on windows and macintosh.[/color]
>
>
> Oh wow, yes I guess it's cross platform then. Hmm, what Micro$oft
> tool do I need to build and run it? Is Visual C++ enough? I guess
> I can get the client to pay for some stuff like that. Also, is there
> a Glade-like drag and drop gui editor for it?
>
>[color=green]
>>Qt is better for developing - it has a better class structure and I
>>tend not to have to look up docs as often and can look really,
>>really nice.[/color]
>
>
> The KDE apps that I've seen look good but not really top notch. Maybe
> more attention could improve them. They're certainly good enough for
> practical use.
>
>[color=green]
>>Tkinter has a killer canvas and great postscript output. GTK is
>>really quite fast.[/color]
>
>
> I think I don't care about heavy duty graphics or more than rudimentary
> printing.
>
>[color=green]
>>but don't take my word for this, why don't you see what you like the best?
>>
>>http://www.wxpython.org/
>>http://www.gtk.org/
>>http://www.scriptics.com/
>>http://www.trolltech.com/[/color]
>
>
> I don't know what I can really tell from these without more experience
> with them. In particular, which is the most solid and reliable across
> a wide range of Windows versions (95, 98, ..., XP whatever)? That
> matters too.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul[/color]