A story about Python... sort of

[Max M]

There is a story today on Slashdot


Open Source Project Management Lessons
=============== =============== ========

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/02/1817220&mode=flat&tid=185

"Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.


In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being

Engineering Lessons
-------------------
1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language


He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
instead. But there is a link to another page:

Which Language Do You Recommend?
=============== =============== ==

http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLanguageDoYouRecommend.htm

And guess which language it is?


regards Max M

[Egor Bolonev]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

Hello, Max!
You wrote on Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:17:30 +0200:

MM> There is a story today on Slashdot

[Sorry, skipped]

MM> And guess which language it is?

InterEnglish?

With best regards, Egor Bolonev. E-mail: ebolonev@rol.ru [ru eo en]

[Egor Bolonev]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

Hello, Max!
You wrote on Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:17:30 +0200:

MM> There is a story today on Slashdot

[Sorry, skipped]

MM> And guess which language it is?

InterEnglish?

With best regards, Egor Bolonev. E-mail: ebolonev@rol.ru [ru eo en]

[Max Khesin]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

import flame.*
import sorry.*
Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
1) separate compilation?
2) precompiled headers?
3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...e tc.
Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
problem you are either
a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
b) are not thinking enough

c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
(who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at all
the C++ projects on SF!

max.


--
=============== =============== ==========
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAo Mntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @

https://www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]

"Max M" <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote in message
news:3f03f430$0 $97222$edfadb0f @dread12.news.t ele.dk...[color=blue]
> There is a story today on Slashdot
>
>
> Open Source Project Management Lessons
> =============== =============== ========
>[/color]

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/07/02/1817220&mode=flat&tid

=185[color=blue]
>
> "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
> Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
> of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
> choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
>
>
> In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
>
> Engineering Lessons
> -------------------
> 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
>
>
> He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
> instead. But there is a link to another page:
>
> Which Language Do You Recommend?
> =============== =============== ==
> http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLa...uRecommend.htm
>
>
> And guess which language it is?
>
>
> regards Max M
>[/color]

[Max Khesin]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

I am not a TDD expert, but from what I understand TDD applies to lower-level
code, not to design. Design usually spans separate modules and could have
serious impact on the compilation time, while lower-level code can be
compiled/tested very quickly, albeit not as quickly as python. And yes, many
solutions do indicate that there WAS a problem, but since the solutions
actually do work, the problem is not sufficient (IMO) to be a deal breaker
in terms of programming language choice.
max.

--
=============== =============== ==========
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAo Mntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @

https://www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]

[Max Khesin]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

"BearMan" <ronald@PassThe Dairy.net> wrote in message
news:FiZMa.2097 $_k2.145814@nnr p1.ptd.net...[color=blue]
> Not to mention all the time spent recompiling through out the debugging[/color]
and[color=blue]
> troubleshooting process. Has Max ever programmed in Python? How about
> Assembly?[/color]

Yes to both in varying degree.
[color=blue]
> The fact of the matter is there is no such thing as one ULTIMATE language.[/color]
A[color=blue]
> real programmer will have mastered several languages so as to integrate[/color]
the[color=blue]
> best features for any given situation.
>
> IMHO[/color]

I am not sure where we disagree. This is exactly my point. The statement
"
Engineering Lessons
-------------------
1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
"
is pure rubbish. C++ is still great for certain kinds of projects, and there
are lots of open-source and proprietary projects to prove this. I mean, is
Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'?? As I said, this is a very
narrow-minded and conceited statement: rubbish.

max.

[BearMan]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

Agreed...

[Dave Brueck]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

On Thursday 03 July 2003 07:18 am, Peter Hansen wrote:[color=blue]
> Max Khesin wrote:[color=green]
> > import flame.*
> > import sorry.*
> > Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of
> > hooey. Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
> > 1) separate compilation?
> > 2) precompiled headers?
> > 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> > 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> > project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...e tc.[/color]
>
> Sounds to me that if they've come up with so many and such a wide
> range of optimizations to improve compilation time, then it clearly *is*
> a problem...[/color]

Yep! I just read an article in the July issue of Game Developer that mentioned
this topic (item #3 above) in passing. It was a post-mortem of the project
and they cited as one of their life-savers a tool that used all computers in
the office to assist in the compilation of the game - a compilation farm
basically - so that the full rebuild of the game could be reduced to only 3
minutes. Obviously you don't need to do a "rebuild all" for every change to
the code, but compilation and link time is a very real cost, especially as
the project size grows. Even for small projects though, I'm much more likely
to try out small, incremental changes in a language like Python than when I
did C++ or Java because it's just so quick and easy to try it out.

-Dave

[F. GEIGER]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes[color=blue]
> previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at[/color]
all

[OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's the
reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
C++.

Best regards
Franz GEIGER

"Max Khesin" <max@cNOvSisiPo nAtecMh.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:KwWMa.3332 $Aw.3042@twiste r.nyc.rr.com...[color=blue]
> import flame.*
> import sorry.*
> Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of[/color]
hooey.[color=blue]
> Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
> 1) separate compilation?
> 2) precompiled headers?
> 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...e tc.
> Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
> problem you are either
> a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
> b) are not thinking enough
>
> c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
> hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want[/color]
halfwits[color=blue]
> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
> previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at[/color]
all[color=blue]
> the C++ projects on SF!
>
> max.
>
>
> --
> =============== =============== ==========
> Max Khesin, software developer -
> max@cNvOiSsPiAo Mntech.com
> [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com,[/color]
JBIG2-PDF[color=blue]
> compression @
> www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]
>
>
> "Max M" <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote in message
> news:3f03f430$0 $97222$edfadb0f @dread12.news.t ele.dk...[color=green]
> > There is a story today on Slashdot
> >
> >
> > Open Source Project Management Lessons
> > =============== =============== ========
> >[/color]
>[/color]
http://developers.slashdot.org/artic...&mode=flat&tid[color=blue]
> =185[color=green]
> >
> > "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
> > Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
> > of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
> > choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
> >
> >
> > In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
> >
> > Engineering Lessons
> > -------------------
> > 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
> >
> >
> > He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
> > instead. But there is a link to another page:
> >
> > Which Language Do You Recommend?
> > =============== =============== ==
> > http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLa...uRecommend.htm
> >
> >
> > And guess which language it is?
> >
> >
> > regards Max M
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Max Khesin]

[ot continued..] Re: A story about Python... sort of

[color=blue]
> [OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's[/color]
the[color=blue]
> reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
> forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
> C++.[/color]

Well, it is documented as one of the original design goals of the language,
if I remember correctly. It is certainly implicitly a goal considering the
sacrifices made to preserve C as a subset.
I think it was important in getting a lot of people on board with c++, but
it certainly there are many problems with it, including the one you
mentioned. Of course the problems would not exist if C++ was never accepted.
It is similar to saying 'how dare my parents embarass me by having sex'.
Take it up with Bjarne :)

max.
[color=blue]
> Best regards
> Franz GEIGER[/color]







--
=============== =============== ==========
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAo Mntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @

https://www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]

[Roy Smith]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

Dave Brueck <dave@pythonapo crypha.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> If Python were to become too slow or too weird I'd migrate to
> another high-level language[/color]

I can certainly see situations were Python might be too slow, but too
weird? When would it be too weird?

[Cliff Wells]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 06:50, Max Khesin wrote:[color=blue]
> import flame.*
> import sorry.*
> Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
> Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.[/color]

It is *a* problem. I'll agree that it's one of the least.
[color=blue]
> 1) separate compilation?
> 2) precompiled headers?
> 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...e tc.
> Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
> problem you are either
> a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
> b) are not thinking enough[/color]

Or making simple typos.
[color=blue]
> c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
> hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
> previous C programmers productive very fast.[/color]

I won't disagree that there is a place for languages like C++.
Developing entire applications isn't it.
[color=blue]
> Empirically - just look at all the C++ projects on SF![/color]

And what percentage of those are incomplete, abandoned, or simply
unusable?

--
Cliff Wells, Software Engineer
Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net)
(503) 978-6726 (800) 735-0555

[Russell Reagan]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

"Dave Brueck" <dave@pythonapo crypha.com> wrote
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I
> > mean, is Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'??[/color]
>
> Well, again, neither of those are "applicatio ns level" projects.[/color]

There is a rather large industry which I'll call "computer games" that is
rather CPU intensive, and AFAIK the vast majority of those games are written
in C/C++. It really depends on the definition of "applicatio n level". If
we're only including things like word processors and web browsers in the
"applicatio n level", then there isn't a great need for C++ in the
"applicatio n level", but there are certainly areas where speed and memory
efficiency is important.

I will admit that I'm getting tired of writing a lot of the support code,
debugging, etc., most of which Python provides for "free".

[Behrang Dadsetan]

Re: A story about Python... sort of



Russell Reagan wrote:[color=blue]
> "F. GEIGER" <fgeiger@datec. at> wrote
>
>[color=green]
>>[OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's[/color]
>
> the
>[color=green]
>>reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
>>forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
>>C++.[/color]
>
>
> C++ is not an OO language. It is a multi-paradigm language that happens to
> support OO features. No one is required to program OO in C++. It's even very
> debatable if it's better to program OO in C++.[/color]

We are getting very philosophical here and I guess we are getting a
little off-topic, but what is an OO language? Isn't one that supports OO
features? Ok, You can write C code and compile it with a C++ compiler,
but does it disqualify C++ as being a OO language?

The advantages you talk about writing C and using a C++ compiler are
pretty weak. C++ is certainly not just about the "typedef" feature... It
is a very powerfull language that can be used to express exactly what
you want the computer to do, and in the same time kind of abstract
details to a level where you can still see what your program was written
for. Agreed, it is a terrificly complex language all together, but it
has its use. If you actually respect the thousand rules from M. Meyer
plus a few from M. Lakos, you can build very reliable and stable
applications. If you are a genius or have some technique and experience,
you can even have a somewhat bigger code where you still have an overview.

The big disadvantage to its C compatibility is that lots of people
beleive they have C++ experience and present themselves at C++ jobs. You
just need an IT management which has no clue about OO technology/C++
(managers that understand anything at this level are in minority) and
you soon have a C programmer who used a C++ compiler converted into a
Java programmer. Little after you will see something really funny, C
compiled by a Java programmer. Is Java therefore not a OO language? I
mean Java will allow C programmers to build classes with only static
methods, with classes of 6000 lines without constructor and all
variables declared as public class members? I have seen this, and I am
not exagerating at all in the description... it actually took me two
days to understand why I did not understand how the programmer cut the
program. Yes, I was naive enough to think one can only write OO in Java,
like in the advert.

Anyway, let us talk about something else, I hate being reminded how
often our IT industry has been guarenteeing our jobs life-time by making
every thing more complicated and more expensive instead of making things
simpler and cheaper as we were entrusted to do. Note that I do not think
we do that on purpose :-)

That said, python does make life easier in many occasions, so there is
maybe some hope that a little tiny community of our IT industry is not
reaping off our dear sponsors (IT users including IT people).

Thanks pyguys for your beautiful contribution, please continue just as
you are now. You have been doing a wonderful job. If you could only
replace VB for all the usages it has now, and convince the planet of
that as well, I would be thankful for ever. :)

Ben.

[Aahz]

Re: A story about Python... sort of

In article <Yg3Na.97773$R7 3.11565@sccrnsc 04>,
Russell Reagan <rreagan@attbi. com> wrote:[color=blue]
>
>There is a rather large industry which I'll call "computer games" that
>is rather CPU intensive, and AFAIK the vast majority of those games are
>written in C/C++. It really depends on the definition of "applicatio n
>level". If we're only including things like word processors and web
>browsers in the "applicatio n level", then there isn't a great need for
>C++ in the "applicatio n level", but there are certainly areas where
>speed and memory efficiency is important.[/color]

At the same time, more and more of those games are switching to using
C/C++ only for the rendering engine and using a scripting language (Lua
or Python) for the gameplay itself.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncra ft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

Usenet is not a democracy. It is a weird cross between an anarchy and a
dictatorship.