Python's website does a great disservice to the language

[Ed Singleton]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

I think I'm going to back you up a little bit here.

You've gone about this in a bit of a half-assed way (and pissed off a
fair few people in the process) but you are right that the site needs
a redesign.

It uses tables for layout with inline styles and font tags and doesn't
really use CSS. It has invalid html, and doesn't even attempt xhtml.
[color=blue]
>From an accessiblity point of view it has a poor choice of font and a[/color]
poor choice of colours (blue links on a blue background).

Design issues such as what logos to use and such aren't really my
forte, but from a web developers point of view it's a badly made
website.

Ed

On 01/11/05, CppNewB <noway@nospam.c om> wrote:[color=blue]
> I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
> went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
> the language is all about.
>
> First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site." The
> site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
> me, I would take a stab at it.
>
> Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we
> could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's
> capability as a web development stack)?
>
>
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>[/color]

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

"CppNewB" wrote:
[color=blue]
> But the logos look like they were done in Paint[/color]

that's probably why the designers won a prestigious design award
for their:

"...innovat ive letter designs and typographic experiments,
which are testimony to their unconventional thinking about,
and use of, existing software applications. By actually
modifying the software they are able to escape the
standard of existing digital letters. In doing so, their
letter types show a kind of obstreperous mentality and
sense of humour."

a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality,
and a sense of humour. what else do you need?

</F>

[Simon Brunning]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

On 02/11/05, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality,
> and a sense of humour. what else do you need?[/color]

Biscuits. You need biscuits.

Treating-this-thread-as-seriously-as-it-deserves-ly y'rs,
Simon B.

[The Eternal Squire]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

I like the Python website just fine. It has exactly what it needs to
document and advocate Python, no more and no less. Plus, it loads
quite fast. Two suggestions for the OP:

1) Go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon and read or buy the book "Web
Sites That Suck". It is a fully detailed and annotated text showing
what not to do on websites, and why.

2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a
person should also behave as a sensei to the team members, that is,
having the ability to motivate by example and by knowledge.

The Eternal Squire

[Alex Martelli]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

The Eternal Squire <eternalsquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
...[color=blue]
> 2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
> engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
> at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a[/color]

I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)


Alex

[Steve Holden]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
> The Eternal Squire <eternalsquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
> ...
>[color=green]
>>2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
>>engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
>>at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a[/color]
>
>
> I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
> member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
> supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)
>[/color]
It worked for Microsoft ...

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/

[Rocco Moretti]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

Alex Martelli wrote:[color=blue]
> The Eternal Squire <eternalsquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
> ...
>[color=green]
>>2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
>>engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
>>at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a[/color]
>
>
> I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
> member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
> supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)[/color]

FWIW, when I read it, I took "experience " as a semi-qualitative measure,
more than just "time since graduation."

Hence someone out of school only three months could have more
"experience ", than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent
grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open
source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with
his time, besides raking in a paycheck.

[The Eternal Squire]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

And me, I'm a 15 to 20 year veteran, I started *very* young....

I think Alex has it right. Too many of us elders are like he says.. I
try not to be, to the point where I accepted a promotion from my
captain (wife) from chief engineer of the family to executive officer
(as in, I am now my daughter's full time dad).

But is there anything that people really need in Python open source
that people would accept from an old hand like me? Or am I still
persona non grata for making a butthead of myself during Pycon 2005
(for which I apologize and beg forgiveness) for trying to evangelize
the concept of making None callable?

At the time, I had broncialitis/pneumonia and temperatures averaging
102 and peaking at 104 during all the time I was there. But I wasn't
going to let anything short of death itself prevent me from delivering
my paper. Of course, I please deleriousness (or is it Deloriousness)
during the rest of the time. I was yucky, I admit it.

The Eternal Squire

[Alex Martelli]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

Rocco Moretti <roccomoretti@h otpop.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Alex Martelli wrote:[color=green]
> > The Eternal Squire <eternalsquire@ comcast.net> wrote:
> > ...
> >[color=darkred]
> >>2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
> >>engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
> >>at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a[/color]
> >
> >
> > I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
> > member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
> > supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)[/color]
>
> FWIW, when I read it, I took "experience " as a semi-qualitative measure,
> more than just "time since graduation."
>
> Hence someone out of school only three months could have more
> "experience ", than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent
> grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open
> source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with
> his time, besides raking in a paycheck.[/color]

Sure -- measure "experience " in whatever units you like, e.g., number of
function points designed, coded, tested and debugged in one's lifetime;
my (meant-to-be-funny but not unfounded...;-) quip still stands -- the
concept that the cat herder (==supervisor of developers) should ideally
be (among other things) a very experienced developer is (IMHO) quite
sound, but it's also quite inappropriate to gauge that in terms of a
ratio with the most junior team-member's experience (which might be very
low, in whatever units of measure one might like to use).


Alex

[The Eternal Squire]

Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language

Well, I admit the remark was off the cuff because I was thinking of
conventional waterfall development cycles in the aerospace industry....
in that context someone who wasn't there during an entire development
cycle is not even a junior member, but is rather a recruit under
training to begin actually contributing to the next project.

I would call someone who survived all phases of a single
design-code-test-peerreview cycle (about 2 years) to be junior, and
someone with less experience that that as a recruit. On that basis,
the lead should have 3 design cycles or 6 years experience. The lead
does not need to be the master designer on the project, but it helps a
lot when that happens.

The Eternal Squire