need some advice on x y plot

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  • nephish@xit.net

    #16
    Re: need some advice on x y plot

    ok, i have a display, and its a work in progress.

    lemme get this straight. you used

    gp('set term png')

    is this an example of sending normal gnuplot commands?
    if so, are all of the gnuplot commands available ?
    thanks so much this is helping me out a lot here

    Comment

    • Grant Edwards

      #17
      Re: need some advice on x y plot

      On 2005-10-21, nephish@xit.net <nephish@xit.ne t> wrote:
      [color=blue]
      > gp('set term png')
      >
      > is this an example of sending normal gnuplot commands?[/color]

      Yes.
      [color=blue]
      > if so, are all of the gnuplot commands available ?[/color]

      Yes.

      --
      Grant Edwards grante Yow! Do you like "TENDER
      at VITTLES"?
      visi.com

      Comment

      • nephish@xit.net

        #18
        Re: need some advice on x y plot

        this is great, because the docs on gnuplots website are a bit easier
        for me to grasp.
        thanks so much for your time on this one. you really have helped me a
        lot.
        i will not get a change to work on this till monday. so i may have more
        questions then. This is sure a point in the right direction.

        thanks much.
        shawn

        Comment

        • nephish@xit.net

          #19
          Re: need some advice on x y plot

          ok, i am stuck a bit here with this line

          gp('set xtics (%s)' % ','.join(ticstr ings))

          the error code says that it is looking for a closing parenthesis.
          that and i am kinda new enough not to really get what %s is all about.
          i know it formats a string.

          can you simply pass a list to 'set xtics' ?

          i mean, i got this from the gnuplot site

          Syntax:

          set xtics {axis | border} {{no}mirror} {{no}rotate {by <ang>}}
          {offset <offset> | nooffset}
          { autofreq
          | <incr>
          | <start>, <incr> {,<end>}
          | ({"<label>"} <pos> {<level>} {,{"<label>"}.. .) }
          { font "name{,<siz e>}" }
          { textcolor <colorspec> }
          unset xtics
          show xtics

          but it does not look like all the options are necessary from the docs,
          i guess i am asking, if i just wanted to pass a list of say, 14 tics to
          the x axis as a list, what of the above is necessary ?

          i built the list by taking time stamps in seconds (the same as being
          plotted for x) took the end time minus the start time and divided by
          12, incremented each by this amount until i had 12 plots (plus of
          course the first and last).
          these are all stored in plot_times[]..

          any tips ?

          sorry if this all sounds a bit scrambled. i just got the hang of
          changing from a datetime.dateti me to time in epoch seconds. ( these
          little triumphs keep me going )

          thanks for your help. the graph i built looks great, and looks right
          referenced with time. just neeed to print the x a little easier to
          read.

          thanks again,

          shawn

          Comment

          • Dennis Lee Bieber

            #20
            Re: need some advice on x y plot

            On 24 Oct 2005 15:58:25 -0700, nephish@xit.net declaimed the following
            in comp.lang.pytho n:
            [color=blue]
            > ok, i am stuck a bit here with this line
            >
            > gp('set xtics (%s)' % ','.join(ticstr ings))
            >
            > the error code says that it is looking for a closing parenthesis.
            > that and i am kinda new enough not to really get what %s is all about.
            > i know it formats a string.
            >
            > can you simply pass a list to 'set xtics' ?
            >
            > i mean, i got this from the gnuplot site
            >
            > Syntax:
            >
            > set xtics {axis | border} {{no}mirror} {{no}rotate {by <ang>}}
            > {offset <offset> | nooffset}
            > { autofreq
            > | <incr>
            > | <start>, <incr> {,<end>}
            > | ({"<label>"} <pos> {<level>} {,{"<label>"}.. .) }
            > { font "name{,<siz e>}" }
            > { textcolor <colorspec> }
            > unset xtics
            > show xtics
            >[/color]
            The only option I see that uses parens and commas is the fourth
            option in the block starting { autofreq.

            The problem is: What does ticstrings contain?
            --[color=blue]
            > =============== =============== =============== =============== == <
            > wlfraed@ix.netc om.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
            > wulfraed@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
            > =============== =============== =============== =============== == <
            > Home Page: <http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/> <
            > Overflow Page: <http://wlfraed.home.ne tcom.com/> <[/color]

            Comment

            • nephish@xit.net

              #21
              Re: need some advice on x y plot

              well, for what i tried, ticstrings just contained a list of times
              formatted like
              [10-21 09:15, 10-21 09:44, 10-21 09:59, and so on.....]
              i did write mine a little different than the example that Grant gave me
              because its a little
              different application of time.

              i think i am having trouble knowing exactly what the set xtics line is
              looking for.
              thanks

              Comment

              • Grant Edwards

                #22
                Re: need some advice on x y plot

                On 2005-10-24, nephish@xit.net <nephish@xit.ne t> wrote:[color=blue]
                > ok, i am stuck a bit here with this line
                >
                > gp('set xtics (%s)' % ','.join(ticstr ings))
                >
                > the error code says that it is looking for a closing parenthesis.[/color]

                Well, what is the value of ticstrings?

                Try passing the parameter debug=1 to Guplot.Gnuplot( ):

                gp = Gnuplot.Gnuplot (debug=1)

                Then it will print out all of the gnuplot commands to stdout.
                [color=blue]
                > that and i am kinda new enough not to really get what %s is
                > all about. i know it formats a string.[/color]



                Follow the first hit.
                [color=blue]
                > can you simply pass a list to 'set xtics' ?[/color]

                That depends. What do you mean by "a list", and what do you
                mean "pass it to 'set xtics'"?
                [color=blue]
                > i mean, i got this from the gnuplot site
                >
                > Syntax:
                >
                > set xtics {axis | border} {{no}mirror} {{no}rotate {by <ang>}}
                > {offset <offset> | nooffset}
                > { autofreq
                > | <incr>
                > | <start>, <incr> {,<end>}
                > | ({"<label>"} <pos> {<level>} {,{"<label>"}.. .) }
                > { font "name{,<siz e>}" }
                > { textcolor <colorspec> }
                > unset xtics
                > show xtics
                >
                > but it does not look like all the options are necessary from
                > the docs, i guess i am asking, if i just wanted to pass a list
                > of say, 14 tics to the x axis as a list, what of the above is
                > necessary ?[/color]

                Well, you could start up gnuplot at the command line and try a
                few "set xtics" commands. That's how I figur gnuplot commands
                out. The format for the set xtics command that I was using in
                my demo was

                set xtics ("label" pos, "label" pos, "label" pos)
                [color=blue]
                > i built the list by taking time stamps in seconds (the same as
                > being plotted for x) took the end time minus the start time
                > and divided by 12, incremented each by this amount until i had
                > 12 plots (plus of course the first and last). these are all
                > stored in plot_times[]..[/color]

                We can't read your mind. Unless you show us actual code, we
                can't help. Show us a small example program with Gnuplot's
                debug feature enabled that doesn't do what you want it to.

                Tell us what it is you wanted the program to do and post the
                output from that program. Do _not_ attempt to re-type the
                output from the program. Either redirect it to a file or
                cut/paste it.

                --
                Grant Edwards grante Yow! PUNK ROCK!! DISCO
                at DUCK!! BIRTH CONTROL!!
                visi.com

                Comment

                • Grant Edwards

                  #23
                  Re: need some advice on x y plot

                  On 2005-10-25, nephish@xit.net <nephish@xit.ne t> wrote:
                  [color=blue]
                  > well, for what i tried, ticstrings just contained a list of times
                  > formatted like
                  > [10-21 09:15, 10-21 09:44, 10-21 09:59, and so on.....][/color]

                  OK. What did ticstrings contain in the demo I wrote for you?

                  [When somebody who is trying to help you asks what the value of
                  an object was in your program just paste the output from
                  repr(obj). If you try to describe the contents in English, I
                  guarantee it won't be sufficient.]
                  [color=blue]
                  > i did write mine a little different than the example that
                  > Grant gave me[/color]

                  Well, that's your problem. Look at the ticstrings value that
                  worked, and look at the ticstrings value that didn't work.

                  What is the difference between the two?
                  [color=blue]
                  > because its a little different application of time.
                  >
                  > i think i am having trouble knowing exactly what the set xtics
                  > line is looking for.[/color]

                  --
                  Grant Edwards grante Yow! .. someone in DAYTON,
                  at Ohio is selling USED
                  visi.com CARPETS to a SERBO-CROATIAN

                  Comment

                  • Frithiof Andreas Jensen

                    #24
                    Re: need some advice on x y plot


                    <nephish@xit.ne t> wrote in message
                    news:1129823043 .104864.73750@f 14g2000cwb.goog legroups.com...

                    If the x-axis is time, gnuplot will plot it correctly but it will connect
                    *all* the datapoints and scale the x-axis so that everything will fit on the
                    graph. Is it the autoscaling or conneting that what you think is wrong?

                    Getting a fixed-size x-axis is a configuration option. I think one simply
                    passes a range to the axis one wants to scale. I cannot remember exactly,
                    how though.
                    [color=blue]
                    > one of you guys know a charting app that will do this ? or is there
                    > some other way i could do it?[/color]

                    RRDTool is excellent at storing & plotting time series data. It will not
                    "connect" missing data points but has the limitation that the sample rate
                    must be known when creating the database and generally adhered to. Missed
                    samples are NAN's.

                    You have to "tell" gnuplot what to plot and what not to plot. I think you
                    can add more than one data series to the same plot, providing the "gap"
                    where data is unavaliable. Else you have to "pad" it with zeros or some
                    other appropriate null value.


                    Comment

                    • nephish@xit.net

                      #25
                      Re: need some advice on x y plot

                      Ok, first off, thanks for all the help guys,

                      this part " set xtics ("label" pos, "label" pos, "label" pos) "
                      is mainly what i was confused about. the 'pos' part. i think that the
                      way i am writing
                      this leaves this out. in fact, i am pretty sure.

                      here is the code i am trying out.

                      def draw_chart(self , StartTime, EndTime):
                      # make start time and end time markers in seconds
                      start_tic = time.mktime(tim e.strptime(Star tTime, '%Y-%m-%d
                      %H:%M:%S'))
                      end_tic = time.mktime(tim e.strptime(EndT ime, '%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'))
                      # get the difference in seconds between start and end times
                      diff_time = start_tic - end_tic
                      # get tick marks with respect to time
                      tic_increment = diff_time / 15
                      #build an array of ticmarks
                      tics_raw = []
                      tics_raw.append (start_tic)
                      tic_adder = start_tic
                      for x in range(13):
                      tic_adder = tic_adder + tic_increment
                      tics_raw.append (tic_adder)

                      #add the last time to the tics array
                      tics_raw.append (end_tic)

                      # change all the tic increments to reader understandable values
                      tics = []
                      for x in tics_raw:
                      tics.append(tim e.strftime('%m/%d %H:%M', time.localtime( x)))
                      print 'tic '+(time.strftim e('%m/%d %H:%M', time.localtime( x)))

                      # get the plot points date / value
                      Sensor = self.GraphSenso rEntry.get_text ()
                      db = MySQLdb.connect (host="localhos t", user="piv",
                      passwd="crayon9 9", db="DDS")
                      cursor=db.curso r()
                      cursor.execute( "SELECT `Raw`, `DateTime` FROM `Process` WHERE
                      `Sensor_ID` = '"+Sensor+"' \
                      AND `DateTime` > '"+StartTime +"' AND `DateTime` < '"+EndTime+" '
                      ORDER BY `DateTime` ")
                      results = cursor.fetchall ()
                      plot_x = []
                      plot_y = []
                      for row in results:
                      Value = row[0]
                      #convert datetime.dateti me object to epoch (seconds) object
                      Time = time.mktime(row[1].timetuple())
                      print time.strftime(' %m/%d %H:%M:%S', time.localtime( Time))

                      plot_x.append(f loat(Time))
                      plot_y.append(f loat(Value))
                      g = Gnuplot.Gnuplot (debug=1)
                      g.title('testin g')
                      data = Gnuplot.Data(pl ot_x,plot_y)
                      outfile = '/home/piv/PivData/tmp/images/graph.png'
                      g('set term png')
                      g('set out "%s"' % outfile)
                      g('set xtics (%s)' % (tics))
                      g.plot(data)

                      self.GraphImage .set_from_file( '/home/piv/PivData/tmp/images/graph.png')



                      and this is the terminal output i get

                      gnuplot> set title "testing"
                      gnuplot> set term png
                      gnuplot> set out "/home/piv/PivData/tmp/images/graph.png"
                      gnuplot> set xtics (['10/18 09:54', '10/17 22:42', '10/17 11:30',
                      '10/17 00:18', '10/16 13:06', '10/16 01:54', '10/15 14:42', '10/15
                      03:30', '10/14 16:18', '10/14 05:06', '10/13 17:54', '10/13 06:42',
                      '10/12 19:30', '10/12 08:18', '10/25 09:54'])
                      gnuplot> plot '/tmp/tmpn2URt2' notitle

                      gnuplot> set xtics (['10/18 09:54', '10/17 22:42', '10/17 11:30',
                      '10/17 00:18', '10/16 13:06', '10/16 01:54', '10/15 14:42', '10/15
                      03:30', '10/14 16:18', '10/14 05:06', '10/13 17:54', '10/13 06:42',
                      '10/12 19:30', '10/12 08:18', '10/25 09:54'])
                      ^
                      line 0: invalid expression


                      it is drawing the graph though, and it looks right compared with the
                      data

                      i noticed in the docs for gnuplot, that it can do date/time and by
                      default uses seconds since 2000. and then you can pass the format that
                      you want to show it in.
                      would this give the same kind of result that i am looking for ?


                      my math in how i am doing this is kinda off too, i think.
                      for the stuff i am doing on our website, i use php with jpgraph, it
                      does things a little
                      different.

                      thanks for everything
                      shawn

                      Comment

                      • Grant Edwards

                        #26
                        Re: need some advice on x y plot

                        On 2005-10-25, nephish@xit.net <nephish@xit.ne t> wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        > Ok, first off, thanks for all the help guys,
                        >
                        > this part "set xtics ("label" pos, "label" pos, "label" pos)"
                        > is mainly what i was confused about. the 'pos' part. i think
                        > that the way i am writing this leaves this out. in fact, i am
                        > pretty sure.[/color]

                        Yup, it looks like it.
                        [color=blue]
                        > here is the code i am trying out.[/color]

                        [Another hint: when posting code, don't wrap it. It won't run
                        as it was posted, and people aren't generally going to be willing to go
                        through and un-wrap the lines in order to try it.]
                        [color=blue]
                        > gnuplot> set title "testing"
                        > gnuplot> set term png
                        > gnuplot> set out "/home/piv/PivData/tmp/images/graph.png"
                        > gnuplot> set xtics (['10/18 09:54', '10/17 22:42', '10/17 11:30',
                        > '10/17 00:18', '10/16 13:06', '10/16 01:54', '10/15 14:42', '10/15
                        > 03:30', '10/14 16:18', '10/14 05:06', '10/13 17:54', '10/13 06:42',
                        > '10/12 19:30', '10/12 08:18', '10/25 09:54'])[/color]

                        OK, You need to get rid of the sqare brackets, and you need an
                        x-position value after each of the strings.
                        [color=blue]
                        > i noticed in the docs for gnuplot, that it can do date/time
                        > and by default uses seconds since 2000. and then you can pass
                        > the format that you want to show it in. would this give the
                        > same kind of result that i am looking for ?[/color]

                        It looks like it. Though I've used custom tics in the past, it
                        was never for time values. Based on the help from gnuplot, I
                        suspect you can get what you want without doing custom tics,
                        but rather using the commands

                        set xdata time
                        set timefmt
                        set format x

                        Interestingly, using Unix timestamps creates some sort of
                        resolution problems. The following ought to work but doesn't.
                        It appears that there is some sort of resolution problem:

                        ------------------------------8<------------------------------
                        import Gnuplot,time,sy s,math

                        def pause():
                        sys.stdout.writ e("Press enter to continue: ")
                        sys.stdin.readl ine()

                        def fgrid(start,sto p,count):
                        for i in xrange(count):
                        yield start + ((stop-start)*i)/count

                        start = time.time()

                        xdata = [x for x in fgrid(0,600.0,1 0)] # two minutes worth
                        ydata = [math.sin(x/100.0) for x in xdata]
                        data = Gnuplot.Data(xd ata,ydata,with= 'linespoints',u sing=(1,2))
                        gp = Gnuplot.Gnuplot (debug=1)
                        gp.title('Data starting at %s' % time.asctime(ti me.gmtime(start +xdata[0])))

                        # x axis will use default tics (seconds since start of run)
                        gp.plot(data)
                        pause()

                        # same data with x value as Unix timestamps

                        xdata = [x+start for x in xdata]
                        print xdata
                        data = Gnuplot.Data(xd ata,ydata,with= 'linespoints',u sing=(1,2))

                        gp('set xdata time')
                        gp('set timefmt "%s')
                        gp('set format x "%r"')
                        gp('set xtics 120')
                        gp.plot(data)
                        pause()
                        ------------------------------8<------------------------------


                        --
                        Grant Edwards grante Yow! LOOK!!! I'm WALKING
                        at in my SLEEP again!!
                        visi.com

                        Comment

                        • Grant Edwards

                          #27
                          Re: need some advice on x y plot

                          On 2005-10-25, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.co m> wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          > It looks like it. Though I've used custom tics in the past, it
                          > was never for time values. Based on the help from gnuplot, I
                          > suspect you can get what you want without doing custom tics,
                          > but rather using the commands
                          >
                          > set xdata time
                          > set timefmt
                          > set format x
                          >
                          > Interestingly, using Unix timestamps creates some sort of
                          > resolution problems. The following ought to work but doesn't.
                          > It appears that there is some sort of resolution problem:
                          >
                          > ------------------------------8<------------------------------
                          > import Gnuplot,time,sy s,math
                          >
                          > def pause():
                          > sys.stdout.writ e("Press enter to continue: ")
                          > sys.stdin.readl ine()
                          >
                          > def fgrid(start,sto p,count):
                          > for i in xrange(count):
                          > yield start + ((stop-start)*i)/count
                          >
                          > start = time.time()
                          >
                          > xdata = [x for x in fgrid(0,600.0,1 0)] # two minutes worth
                          > ydata = [math.sin(x/100.0) for x in xdata]
                          > data = Gnuplot.Data(xd ata,ydata,with= 'linespoints',u sing=(1,2))
                          > gp = Gnuplot.Gnuplot (debug=1)
                          > gp.title('Data starting at %s' % time.asctime(ti me.gmtime(start +xdata[0])))
                          >
                          > # x axis will use default tics (seconds since start of run)
                          > gp.plot(data)
                          > pause()
                          >
                          > # same data with x value as Unix timestamps
                          >
                          > xdata = [x+start for x in xdata]
                          > print xdata
                          > data = Gnuplot.Data(xd ata,ydata,with= 'linespoints',u sing=(1,2))
                          >
                          > gp('set xdata time')
                          > gp('set timefmt "%s')
                          > gp('set format x "%r"')
                          > gp('set xtics 120')
                          > gp.plot(data)
                          > pause()
                          > ------------------------------8<------------------------------[/color]

                          Yup. Something in the Gnuplot module is broken. Here's the
                          x data I'm passing it:

                          [1130256529.6161 58, 1130256589.6161 58, 1130256649.6161 58,
                          1130256709.6161 58, 1130256769.6161 58, 1130256829.6161 58,
                          1130256889.6161 58, 1130256949.6161 58, 1130257009.6161 58,
                          1130257069.6161 58]

                          And here's what it's passing to gnuplot

                          1130256512.0 0.0
                          1130256640.0 0.564642488956
                          1130256640.0 0.93203908205
                          1130256768.0 0.97384762764
                          1130256768.0 0.675463199615
                          1130256768.0 0.141120001674
                          1130256896.0 -0.442520439625
                          1130256896.0 -0.871575772762
                          1130257024.0 -0.996164619923
                          1130257024.0 -0.772764503956

                          It appears that the Gnuplot modules has coerced my data into
                          single-precision -- thus throwing away most of the resolution
                          on the x-axis.

                          --
                          Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow!
                          at
                          visi.com

                          Comment

                          • Grant Edwards

                            #28
                            Re: need some advice on x y plot

                            On 2005-10-25, Grant Edwards <grante@visi.co m> wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            > It appears that the Gnuplot modules has coerced my data into
                            > single-precision -- thus throwing away most of the resolution
                            > on the x-axis.[/color]

                            Passing Gnuplot.Data a Numeric array object is a good
                            work-around. Otherwise, Gnuplot.Data will convert it into a
                            float (single precision) arry.

                            Here's a revised demo that works better:

                            ------------------------------8<------------------------------
                            import Gnuplot,time,sy s,math
                            import Numeric

                            Gnuplot.Gnuplot Opts.prefer_fif o_data = 0

                            def pause():
                            sys.stdout.writ e("Press enter to continue: ")
                            sys.stdin.readl ine()

                            def fgrid(start,sto p,count):
                            for i in xrange(count):
                            yield start + ((stop-start)*i)/count

                            start = time.time()

                            xdata = [x for x in fgrid(0,600.0,1 0)] # two minutes worth
                            ydata = [math.sin(x/100.0) for x in xdata]
                            data = Gnuplot.Data(xd ata,ydata,with= 'linespoints',u sing=(1,2))
                            gp = Gnuplot.Gnuplot (debug=1)
                            gp.title('Data starting at %s' % time.asctime(ti me.gmtime(start +xdata[0])))

                            # x axis will use default tics (seconds since start of run)
                            gp.plot(data)
                            pause()

                            # same data with x value as Unix timestamps
                            xdata = [x+start for x in xdata]
                            a = Numeric.array(z ip(xdata,ydata) )

                            data = Gnuplot.Data(a, with='linespoin ts',using=(1,2) )

                            gp('set xdata time')
                            gp('set timefmt "%s')
                            gp('set format x "%r"')
                            gp('set xtics 120')
                            gp.plot(data)
                            pause()


                            ------------------------------8<------------------------------

                            --
                            Grant Edwards grante Yow! The Korean War must
                            at have been fun.
                            visi.com

                            Comment

                            • Dennis Lee Bieber

                              #29
                              Re: need some advice on x y plot

                              On 25 Oct 2005 08:18:39 -0700, nephish@xit.net declaimed the following
                              in comp.lang.pytho n:

                              [color=blue]
                              >
                              > this part " set xtics ("label" pos, "label" pos, "label" pos) "
                              > is mainly what i was confused about. the 'pos' part. i think that the
                              > way i am writing
                              > this leaves this out. in fact, i am pretty sure.
                              >[/color]
                              pos (position) is the one part of that syntax you CANNOT leave out.
                              The label is optional. Sounds like you are trying to supply labels
                              without telling it where on the line to put them.
                              [color=blue]
                              > here is the code i am trying out.
                              >
                              > def draw_chart(self , StartTime, EndTime):
                              > # make start time and end time markers in seconds
                              > start_tic = time.mktime(tim e.strptime(Star tTime, '%Y-%m-%d
                              > %H:%M:%S'))
                              > end_tic = time.mktime(tim e.strptime(EndT ime, '%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S'))
                              > # get the difference in seconds between start and end times
                              > diff_time = start_tic - end_tic
                              > # get tick marks with respect to time
                              > tic_increment = diff_time / 15
                              > #build an array of ticmarks
                              > tics_raw = []
                              > tics_raw.append (start_tic)
                              > tic_adder = start_tic
                              > for x in range(13):
                              > tic_adder = tic_adder + tic_increment
                              > tics_raw.append (tic_adder)
                              >
                              > #add the last time to the tics array
                              > tics_raw.append (end_tic)
                              >
                              > # change all the tic increments to reader understandable values
                              > tics = []
                              > for x in tics_raw:
                              > tics.append(tim e.strftime('%m/%d %H:%M', time.localtime( x)))[/color]

                              I think you need to interleave the string label with the RAW numbers
                              (as the raw numbers are what the plotting package should be using to
                              position data -- hopefully you don't have to also zero-normalize them
                              and the actual data). Something like

                              tics.append('"% s" %s' % (time.strftime( ...), x))
                              # might need time.localtime( x) for that last term.

                              Each list item should then be a string consisting of a double-quoted
                              label followed by a numeric "position" value.
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                              Comment

                              • nephish@xit.net

                                #30
                                Re: need some advice on x y plot

                                tics.append('"% s" %s' % (time.strftime( ...), x))
                                # might need time.localtime( x) for that last term.

                                ok, tried this and it worked.
                                but the first plot is at the last plot of data
                                back to that math mistake i mentioned earlier.
                                so, thanks much, i will be back when i mess around with it some more
                                and
                                see if i can get it right.
                                thanks very very much guys,

                                i know i sound frustrated and ignorant, but i am having a lot of fun
                                with this

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