Where to find python c-sources

[Erik Max Francis]

Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find pythonc-sources]

Steve Holden wrote:
[color=blue]
> I don't think "The source tarball on python.org" could claim to be
> telling him "exactly where it was" given that my copy of the web site
> has 341 MB of stuff in it.[/color]

He doesn't have to search through the whole thing, there's a link on the
front page, so this 341 MB figure is meaningless.

I certainly understand laziness. I don't approve of it, but I can
understand it. But I really don't understand _defending_ laziness.

His grasp of the English language was just fine. He could have gotten
the answer to his question by using Google with less time and effort
than it took him to post to Usenet, wait for a response, and then act on
it. Even if he were totally lazy and selfish, he could have gotten the
answer more easily by using Google for ten seconds. Language was
obviously not a barrier here, since the very words he used in asking the
question could have been typed into a search engine to get exactly the
answer he wanted.

There are plenty of questions that are complex enough, or require
knowing the right terminology which might not be obvious to an
interested amateur, such that a search engine won't be the most
practical way to do research. This was _certainly_ not one of those cases.

--
Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
No mistaking / Just reflecting what you radiate
-- Anggun

[Michael]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

John J. Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> "Tor Erik Sønvisen" <tores@stud.cs. uit.no> writes:[color=green]
>> "Erik Max Francis" <max@alcyone.co m> wrote in message[color=darkred]
>> > Tor Erik Sønvisen wrote:
>> >> I need to browse the socket-module source-code. I believe it's
>> >> contained in the file socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file...
>> >> Where should I look?
>> > The source tarball, available on python.org. Are people really too
>> > lazy to do elementary research on Google?[/color]
>> Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google![/color][/color]
....[color=blue]
> Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]

Aside from Paul Boddie's comment to the effect of "yes", there is a very
important thing that people forget - *no everyone is as good at using a
search engine as others*. People are not simply as good at finding the same
information using the same tools as others.

You liken the problem to a library. If you understand how a library is laid
out, you can find the information alot quicker. If however you're looking
in a library for a book on "how to create those odd things for computers"
and you've been told it involves "python" you're as likely to end up in the
fiction section as you are zoology.

If you can't figure out the right search terms you need, google can be
useless. (That said when that happens to me, I tend to either use
kartoo.com or ask a friend)

The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu
is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at
least...)


Michael.

[John J. Lee]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

[Tor Erik Sønvisen][color=blue]
> socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look?[/color]

[John, finding 'socketmodule.c ' responds well to "I'm Feeling Lucky"][color=blue]
> Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]

[Michael][color=blue]
> The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu
> is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at
> least...)[/color]

You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for
"socketmodule.c " when, um, searching for socketmodule.c?


John

[Michael]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

John J. Lee wrote:
[color=blue]
> [Tor Erik Sønvisen][color=green]
>> socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look?[/color]
>
> [John, finding 'socketmodule.c ' responds well to "I'm Feeling Lucky"][color=green]
>> Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]
>
> [Michael][color=green]
>> The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your
>> google-fu is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack
>> them at least...)[/color]
>
> You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for
> "socketmodule.c " when, um, searching for socketmodule.c?[/color]

He said he had tried google - OK, not in the first post but early in this
thread - I don't equate that with being dumb - just dumb luck :-)

Message-ID: <dhj7m5$18j8$1@ news.uit.no>

After all Peter Hansen suggested the search terms "python socketmodule.c"
rather than just "socketmodule.c "

Message-ID: <5N-dnZny3YyaA6HenZ 2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@ powergate.ca>

To you the obvious search term was "socketmodule.c " which to me simply means
you're more aligned with Google than Tor :-)

These things happen :-)

Regards,


Michael.

[Szabolcs Nagy]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

if u just want to browse the code online then use this:

http://fisheye.cenqua.com/viewrep/python/python/dist/src

*much* nicer than sourceforge cvs viewer

nsz

[Peter Hansen]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

Michael wrote:[color=blue]
> John J. Lee wrote:[color=green]
>>You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for
>>"socketmodule .c" when, um, searching for socketmodule.c?[/color]
>
> He said he had tried google - OK, not in the first post but early in this
> thread - I don't equate that with being dumb - just dumb luck :-)
>
> Message-ID: <dhj7m5$18j8$1@ news.uit.no>
>
> After all Peter Hansen suggested the search terms "python socketmodule.c"
> rather than just "socketmodule.c "
>
> Message-ID: <5N-dnZny3YyaA6HenZ 2dnUVZ_tKdnZ2d@ powergate.ca>
>
> To you the obvious search term was "socketmodule.c " which to me simply means
> you're more aligned with Google than Tor :-)[/color]

Sorry, but this defense is less than weak. Using "python
socketmodule.c" you actually get the right answer as the third result,
while with the even-more-obvious-to-a-rookie "socketmodule.c " you get it
as the *first* result. It would perhaps be fun to experiment to see
just how hard it would be to use "socketmodule.c " plus anything else and
*not* get the result one was looking for. ;-) (note the wink...)

Clearly "Tor" did not try searching Google with two of the most obvious
results, but I think at this point he should be considered to be soundly
thrashed over the matter and we can all move on. This isn't getting any
more interesting...

-Peter

[Fredrik Lundh]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

Peter Hansen wrote:
[color=blue]
> Sorry, but this defense is less than weak. Using "python
> socketmodule.c" you actually get the right answer as the third result,
> while with the even-more-obvious-to-a-rookie "socketmodule.c " you get it
> as the *first* result.[/color]

using just "python" gives you a link to the source code download page as
part of the first result.

</F>

[Terry Hancock]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

On Friday 30 September 2005 04:37 pm, John J. Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> "Tor Erik Sønvisen" <tores@stud.cs. uit.no> writes:[color=green]
> > Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google![/color]
>
> How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source
> file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c
>
> Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]

Of course you meant to be snippy and sarcastic, but you've actually
exemplified the reason why so many people don't find such a thing
with Google. Like all search engines, you have to know the right
keyword -- to a fair degree of precision -- in order to find what
you're looking for.

This is very unlike asking a question of a human being. *People*
respond much better to general subject headings such as "socket
module" or "python sources" rather than looking for something
ultra-specific like a particular file name. Researchers take this
training with them when they approach Google and treat it like
a magic librarian -- they give it the same thing they would come
to a human librarian with.

Of course, that shows they are less adept with machines than you
are, just as your reply shows you are less adept with humans.

Both sides could probably learn from the encounter. ;-)

Seriously, though, for anybody new to using search engines, it
is a very useful rule of thumb -- search for a specific word
likely to appear on the page you are looking for, and not
elsewhere.

This also shows where Google fails and newsgroups succeed: when
you know what you want, but don't know what it's called. Often,
all a poster really needs is the right keyword to use.

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispacework s.com )
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com

[Terry Hancock]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

On Monday 03 October 2005 12:26 pm, John J. Lee wrote:[color=blue]
> [Tor Erik Sønvisen][color=green]
> > socketmodule.c, but I can't locate this file... Where should I look?[/color]
>
> [John, finding 'socketmodule.c ' responds well to "I'm Feeling Lucky"][color=green]
> > Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]
>
> [Michael][color=green]
> > The search terms might be obvious to you, but it simply means your google-fu
> > is strong, and the strong should help the weak. (or not attack them at
> > least...)[/color]
>
> You believe that Tor is dumb enough not to think of searching for
> "socketmodule.c " when, um, searching for socketmodule.c?[/color]

No, ironically, the problem is that Tor is too *smart* to search
for "socketmodule.c " -- it requires *unlearning* the experience
from searching physical libraries where subject catalogs and librarians
are the "search engine". They don't respond to the same type of
search terms as machines do.

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispacework s.com )
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com

[John J. Lee]

Re: Where to find python c-sources

Terry Hancock <hancock@anansi spaceworks.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> On Friday 30 September 2005 04:37 pm, John J. Lee wrote:[color=green]
> > "Tor Erik Sønvisen" <tores@stud.cs. uit.no> writes:[color=darkred]
> > > Thanks for the answers... And yes, I have searched google![/color]
> >
> > How odd -- the most useful link (the viewcvs page for this source
> > file) is the very first link for me when I search for socketmodule.c
> >
> > Does google vary in its results across the globe?[/color]
>
> Of course you meant to be snippy and sarcastic,[/color]

I really was wondering if such results varied, because it seemed hard
to believe somebody wouldn't do a similar search. And the idea that
he might have been too lazy didn't enter my head <wink>

[color=blue]
> but you've actually
> exemplified the reason why so many people don't find such a thing
> with Google. Like all search engines, you have to know the right
> keyword -- to a fair degree of precision -- in order to find what
> you're looking for.[/color]

Oh, come off it. It seems hard to imagine that trying socketmodule.c
when looking for socketmodule.c requires some expert search-fu that
I'm supposed to posess.

[color=blue]
> This is very unlike asking a question of a human being. *People*
> respond much better to general subject headings such as "socket
> module" or "python sources" rather than looking for something
> ultra-specific like a particular file name.[/color]

He wasn't looking for general information. He told us he was looking
for socketmodule.c, for Pete's sake! And "python sources" *does*
takes you to the Python sources.

[color=blue]
> Researchers take this
> training with them when they approach Google and treat it like
> a magic librarian -- they give it the same thing they would come
> to a human librarian with.[/color]

You conjure up in my mind a nice picture of an be-cardiganed gentleman
in an oak-panelled corner of the British Library, in his early
seventies complete with pipe, dust, and technophobia. Seems an
unlikely image for somebody with an email address containing the
string "@stud.cs." and stating their interest in reading networking
code written in C <wink>

Still, going back to researchers-with-pipes ("researcher " meaning
"collator of information" rather than "creator/discoverer of original
ideas"), I perhaps naively assume that such Google-phobic researchers
must nowadays do other work for a living. Who'd want to employ a
researcher who can't efficiently use search engines and other
databases these days? But as I say, I could well be naive here... I
recall my not-astonishment at trying to find a book in a local (but
not small) public library, and finding that the librarian was unable
to do so, despite their apparent enthusiasm at my request, and initial
proud promises that the databases they pay for would find it even if
none of the regional libraries had a copy (due in this case I suspect,
and hasten to add, to the databases simply lacking the relevant
records, rather than incompetence on the part of the librarian). I
walked round the corner and found it on both Amazon and Google in
around a few seconds each time. I had been led to believe books were
something of a library speciality...

In fact, rambling a little further, I can honestly say (in the
certainty and enjoyment of offending any librarians reading <0.75
wink>) that I've never knowingly extracted any useful information from
a librarian, who in legend are supposed to have such old-style
researcher-fu as you refer to. This applies even to pre-Google days,
despite having spent a fair amount of time in libraries, and asking a
fair range of questions over a period of years: some very specific,
some quite general and wooly; some particular, some about general
search strategies and techniques. <sarcasm level="0">Perha ps that
just reflects my interests or level of competence in one way or
another.</sarcasm>

[...][color=blue]
> Seriously, though, for anybody new to using search engines, it
> is a very useful rule of thumb -- search for a specific word
> likely to appear on the page you are looking for, and not
> elsewhere.[/color]
[...]

It's quite true that has to be learned.


John

[Alex Martelli]

Re: Google Not Universal Panacea [was: Re: Where to find python c-sources]

Steve Holden <steve@holdenwe b.com> wrote:
...[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> Are people really too lazy to do elementary research on Google?[/color][/color]
>
> goes a bit too far in imputing motives to the enquirer and overlooking
> the fact that there are some very good reasons for *not* using Google.[/color]

It's a good thing you don't actually name any of those reasons, tho:-).
[color=blue]
> we're talking male hormones here, since by and large women don't appear
> to have embraced the Python community (except perhaps individually, but
> that's no business of mine).[/color]

Anna seems to be doing fine, though. She's currently taking a C class
at college and claims "the more I know C, the more I love Python" - and
I gather she's evangelizing (and the class is about 50/50 genderwise;-).
[color=blue]
> Also, many regular readers didn't grow up speaking English (I was[/color]

Yep -- I'm one example of that. Didn't stop Google from hiring me,
though;-).


Alex