Should I move to Amsterdam?

[Wade]

http://www.slate.com/id/2124561/entry/2124562/

Nice little series by Seth Stevenson for Americans daydreaming about
emigration. Somewhere, anywhere ... maybe Amsterdam?

I've never been to the Netherlands myself, but it sounds very
civilized.

Extra Python connection, besides the obvious one: Is "gezellig" related
to the Zen of Python? (

http://wordcraft.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/6351024471/m/2041067571/r/3901049571

)

-- Wade Leftwich
Ithaca, NY

[Wouter van Ooijen]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

>Nice little series by Seth Stevenson for Americans daydreaming about[color=blue]
>emigration. Somewhere, anywhere ... maybe Amsterdam?
>
>I've never been to the Netherlands myself, but it sounds very
>civilized.[/color]

It used to be, until some lunatic (alledged to be a left-winger)
killed an (alledged right-wing) politician, and another (alledged
muslim-extremist) lunatic killed an (alledged right- or left-wing,
depends on who you ask) cineast. We used to be a place where
everything happens a few years later, but we are catching up! :(

But I fondly remember the classes I had at the Delft university by
Lambert Meertens about the ABC language, which is the forerunner of
Python. :)


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------

http://www.voti.nl

Webshop for PICs and other electronics

http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Teacher electronics and informatics

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Wade wrote:[color=blue]
> http://www.slate.com/id/2124561/entry/2124562/
>
> Nice little series by Seth Stevenson for Americans daydreaming about
> emigration. Somewhere, anywhere ... maybe Amsterdam?
>
> I've never been to the Netherlands myself, but it sounds very
> civilized.
>
> Extra Python connection, besides the obvious one: Is "gezellig" related
> to the Zen of Python? (
> http://wordcraft.infopop.cc/eve/ubb....1/r/3901049571
> )
>
> -- Wade Leftwich
> Ithaca, NY
>[/color]

Well I dunno, I was born in Germany moved to the Netherlands and been
quit around in the country.
Personally I don't like city life, however from where I live I am within
the hour in the center of Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht, if you add
half an hour I'm at the heart of Amsterdam. While coming back at home at
a small but flourishing village.

Of course this is all done with public transport and/or bike, not
without reason.
Personal transportation sucks in the Netherlands, if you live in the
Randstad (the area of the above mentioned cities) and you have to travel
across the Randstad, you go with the bike and/or bus/tram/metro/train
because that is the fastest way of transportation.

By the way, the big cities are notorious for losing your bike fast.

That doesn't mean that public transportation is good, no actual since
the public transportation is commercialized it sucks too. But it beats
the hell out of being in the traffic jam every day for at least an hour
wherever you want to go, not entirely true, between 11.00-15.00 and
21.00-05.00 then it's clear enough to switch lanes.
Just don't plan to get anywhere special with public transportation
after 2300h.

Still you might want to go earlier if you go by car, perhaps then you
can find that one parking spot close enough to your destination that you
don't need to take the bus/tram/metro after all to finish the last 5 miles.

Well politics, in the Netherlands is like politics in the rest of
Western-Europe North-Atlantic-coast countries, excluding UK & Ireland.
Most of the time these politicians are social caring about everybody in
the country including non-voters, non-payers and fanatic-believers
of-whatever-you-can-imagine. Although that social caring is mostly out
of a dark personal agenda or plain dumbness.
In the Netherlands even the most right-winged (of any mattering size)
parties are still liberal socialist in the US viewpoint.

Somehow I think that if you want to become a politician you have to be
able to shutdown at least 75% percent of you brain while making
decisions and reactivate them when you have to find an excuse for the
misstep, well at least the last part is true for the Netherlands, from
what I see of US politics even that is not a requirement.

In the Netherlands we still have (but watering away) tradition that
people are responsible for their own deeds and do not sue some unrelated
company when spilling hot coffee or microwaving your puppy or washing
you baby in the wash machine.

Most people in here are non-believers or so lightly believers that you
won't know the difference between them and the non-believers. The
biggest part of the remaining believers are realistic and value life,
moral and norms without compromising public safety, of course fanatics
are every where in the world including the Netherlands.

We had some very difficult years but the economics is picking up again
and because we made some serious budget cuts in social security and
public health it is on a more stable bases then that of Germany and France.

The only serious downsize is that in the Randstad the house prices are
too high, the only way you can buy a reasonable row house house (3
bedrooms, average room = 4x3 meters) in a not too bad side of the city
is when you and you partner work full time and are not planning to raise
your kid(s) all by your self.

Still I don't want to live anywhere else, Holland is big enough to find
some country side with a slower pace of living (but still having adsl),
if you prefer that like me. And with a bit of searching you can build up
a social and work environment not filled with shallow and/or dumbed down
people.

All of the above is of course my viewpoint YMMV.

--
mph

[Sybren Stuvel]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Martin P. Hellwig enlightened us with:[color=blue]
> Personal transportation sucks in the Netherlands, if you live in the
> Randstad (the area of the above mentioned cities) and you have to
> travel across the Randstad, you go with the bike and/or
> bus/tram/metro/train because that is the fastest way of
> transportation.[/color]

And a bike isn't "personal transportation" ?
[color=blue]
> By the way, the big cities are notorious for losing your bike fast.[/color]

True. Unless you have two proper locks. In that case your bike will
last a very long time.
[color=blue]
> That doesn't mean that public transportation is good, no actual
> since the public transportation is commercialized it sucks too.[/color]

It's quite good actually. The Dutch Railways (Nationale Spoorwegen, NS
for short) have a reputation of being late, but it isn't that bad.
Trains run frequently, and if you have a serious delay, you even get
part of your money back.

My GF and I just got back from a holiday in Croatia. There, there is
only a train every four hours, and then you're lucky. The track is so
bad, going by bus is just as fast, except you can buy a ticket on the
bus instead of having to buy a ticket + reservation in advance.

On the way back, we used the ICE (intercity express) through Germany.
It got delayed, so we missed our train to Amsterdam by 15 minutes. The
delay was in Köln, because the pope paid a visit - well known to the
Deutsche Bahn, but still they didn't do anything about it. We had to
use another train which left two hours later. And we didn't get any
compensation for this - not even for the reservation for the train we
missed.

We had a delay of two hours. In The Netherlands you would at least get
a significant percentage of your money back. Not in Germany.

After all, I think with the frequent trains (compared to Croatia) and
reasonable refunds (compared to Germany), the NS isn't that bad after
all.
[color=blue]
> Just don't plan to get anywhere special with public transportation
> after 2300h.[/color]

There are night trains between the big cities in the Randstad. At
least in Amsterdam busses go through the city all the night, every
night. I don't know about other cities - I live in Amsterdam.
[color=blue]
> Well politics, in the Netherlands is like politics in the rest of
> Western-Europe North-Atlantic-coast countries, excluding UK &
> Ireland.[/color]

Still, we were the first ones to legalize properly executed eutanasia.
We were also the first to have official single-sex marriages. I don't
know about other countries, but here prostitution is a regular job, so
you have to pay taxes as a prostitute, and there is even a union.
[color=blue]
> Most of the time these politicians are social caring about everybody
> in the country including non-voters, non-payers and
> fanatic-believers of-whatever-you-can-imagine.[/color]

That's very true. I'm not too happy about that. Too many people refuse
to vote, for just that reason.
[color=blue]
> Most people in here are non-believers or so lightly believers that
> you won't know the difference between them and the non-believers.
> The biggest part of the remaining believers are realistic and value
> life, moral and norms without compromising public safety, of course
> fanatics are every where in the world including the Netherlands.[/color]

Here in Amsterdam, things are getting more nasty. A
writer/critic/actor was killed "in the name of Allah", just because he
excercised his freedom of speech.

Another man was seriously messed up while standing in his own front
door opening, just because he's homosexual. In his street, sometimes
people are shouting "Go away you homo, you're not welcome here. This
is a Macoccan street!. I'm not discriminating, but Maroccans telling
Dutch people they aren't welcome in their own captial? I wish _those_
people would just go back to Marocco.
[color=blue]
> The only serious downsize is that in the Randstad the house prices
> are too high[/color]

Very true. My girlfriend and I are renting a house in the northern
part of Amsterdam, just above Central Station. We had to search quite
hard to find that, though!

Sybren
--
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Frank Zappa

[Piet van Oostrum]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

>>>>> "Martin P. Hellwig" <mhellwig@xs4al l.nl> (MPH) wrote:
[color=blue]
>MPH> Of course this is all done with public transport and/or bike, not without
>MPH> reason.
>MPH> Personal transportation sucks in the Netherlands, if you live in the
>MPH> Randstad (the area of the above mentioned cities) and you have to travel
>MPH> across the Randstad, you go with the bike and/or bus/tram/metro/train
>MPH> because that is the fastest way of transportation.[/color]

That depends very much on where you live and where you have to go (mostly
on the number of changes of transport vehicle). I, for example live in a
small village, 11 km from my work in Utrecht. By bus it is 45-60 minutes,
by bike 40 min. and by car (rush hour) usually 20-25 min. Only when
something serious happens it can be 45 min. by car. This happens about
once a year. Most of the time I take the bike, but not for the speed. It is
actually a pleasant ride, mainly through woods and meadows.

My daughter worked some years ago in Nieuwegein, adjacent to Utrecht. By
car 20 min., by public transport 60-90 min. And this is not in some remote
area, but just in the center of the country, one of the most densely
populated areas.
--
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.uu.n l>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C 4]
Private email: piet@vanoostrum .org

[Steve Holden]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Sybren Stuvel wrote:[color=blue]
> Martin P. Hellwig enlightened us with:
>[/color]
[...][color=blue]
>
> On the way back, we used the ICE (intercity express) through Germany.
> It got delayed, so we missed our train to Amsterdam by 15 minutes. The
> delay was in Köln, because the pope paid a visit - well known to the
> Deutsche Bahn, but still they didn't do anything about it. We had to
> use another train which left two hours later. And we didn't get any
> compensation for this - not even for the reservation for the train we
> missed.
>
> We had a delay of two hours. In The Netherlands you would at least get
> a significant percentage of your money back. Not in Germany.
>[/color]
[...]
Hitler must be turnng in his grave.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

[Wouter van Ooijen]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

>True. Unless you have two proper locks. In that case your bike will[color=blue]
>last a very long time.[/color]

Nope. You will probably retrieve your two locks from the fencing you
attached them to (if you did!), with your bike gone.


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------

http://www.voti.nl

Webshop for PICs and other electronics

http://www.voti.nl/hvu

Teacher electronics and informatics

[Jon Monteleone]

Language translation possible in python?

I have a program that currently displays all of its messages and instructions in only
English. My boss wants me to change it all to Korean. Is there a python module that will
automatically translate my English to Korean?

-Jon

[Sybren Stuvel]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Wouter van Ooijen (www.voti.nl) enlightened us with:[color=blue][color=green]
>>True. Unless you have two proper locks. In that case your bike will
>>last a very long time.[/color]
>
> Nope. You will probably retrieve your two locks from the fencing you
> attached them to (if you did!), with your bike gone.[/color]

That's not my experience, but hey, who am I? I've just lived here for
eight years.

Sybren
--
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Frank Zappa

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Sybren Stuvel wrote:[color=blue]
> Martin P. Hellwig enlightened us with:
>[color=green]
>>Personal transportation sucks in the Netherlands, if you live in the
>>Randstad (the area of the above mentioned cities) and you have to
>>travel across the Randstad, you go with the bike and/or
>>bus/tram/metro/train because that is the fastest way of
>>transportatio n.[/color]
>
>
> And a bike isn't "personal transportation" ?[/color]

Yes it is, and it sucks too, or do you find it amusing to ride 15 clicks
through rain and wind to get to your clients?
Of course you go by car but then it will take you longer.
Byt the way did you notice the "travel across the Randstad" part?
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>By the way, the big cities are notorious for losing your bike fast.[/color]
>
>
> True. Unless you have two proper locks. In that case your bike will
> last a very long time.[/color]

Yes that reminds me that I had 2 quite expensive abus locks on my rather
cheap bike, the day after a hack was published on the Internet how to
open this lock without damaging, the locks where stolen but my bike was
further untouched, that pretty badly hurt my bikes ego I guess.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>>That doesn't mean that public transportation is good, no actual
>>since the public transportation is commercialized it sucks too.[/color]
>
>
> It's quite good actually. The Dutch Railways (Nationale Spoorwegen, NS
> for short) have a reputation of being late, but it isn't that bad.
> Trains run frequently, and if you have a serious delay, you even get
> part of your money back.[/color]

They don't do it because they like the customer they do it because it's
a law.
[color=blue]
>
> My GF and I just got back from a holiday in Croatia. There, there is
> only a train every four hours, and then you're lucky. The track is so[/color]

Croatia is hardley comparible to western europe.
[color=blue]
> bad, going by bus is just as fast, except you can buy a ticket on the
> bus instead of having to buy a ticket + reservation in advance.
>
> On the way back, we used the ICE (intercity express) through Germany.
> It got delayed, so we missed our train to Amsterdam by 15 minutes. The[/color]

Aah yes, ICE, always put in a extra half hour if you need to change
trains, you don't wat to miss reserved trains, no realy you don't want
to. It is just the same as with airplanes.
[color=blue]
> delay was in Köln, because the pope paid a visit - well known to the
> Deutsche Bahn, but still they didn't do anything about it. We had to
> use another train which left two hours later. And we didn't get any
> compensation for this - not even for the reservation for the train we
> missed.[/color]

Same as with airplanes.
[color=blue]
>
> We had a delay of two hours. In The Netherlands you would at least get
> a significant percentage of your money back. Not in Germany.[/color]

Strange, I very frequently go with rail like transportation across
western europe and the only place where it sucks more then in the
Netherlands is the UK or France when they doing another strike. I do not
account major accidents like flooding, storm or earthquakes.
[color=blue]
>
> After all, I think with the frequent trains (compared to Croatia) and
> reasonable refunds (compared to Germany), the NS isn't that bad after
> all.[/color]

Comparing it to Belgium, France, Luxembourg, Germany, Spain, Norway,
Swizz etc.etc. okay, but comparing it with a former Communistic country?
They still have about 45 years of catching up to do and to there credits
they develop much faster then the "old" western countries.

I heard that in Swizz public transportation tend to leave on time and
even arrive on time! Compare that with 12% delayed leaving and 27%
delayed arrivals of trains in the Netherlands.

A rule of thumb is that as soon as the weathere changes (it doesn't
matter what from what and where too) you have at least a 15 minute delay
between the major stations.
[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
>>Just don't plan to get anywhere special with public transportation
>>after 2300h.[/color]
>
>
> There are night trains between the big cities in the Randstad. At
> least in Amsterdam busses go through the city all the night, every
> night. I don't know about other cities - I live in Amsterdam.[/color]

There still alot of people living in cities like Gouda or surrounding
villages in "Het Groene Hart", and most of them can only get home after
23.00h when they go by car (or motorbike).

<cut>[color=blue][color=green]
>>Most people in here are non-believers or so lightly believers that
>>you won't know the difference between them and the non-believers.
>>The biggest part of the remaining believers are realistic and value
>>life, moral and norms without compromising public safety, of course
>>fanatics are every where in the world including the Netherlands.[/color]
>
>
> Here in Amsterdam, things are getting more nasty. A
> writer/critic/actor was killed "in the name of Allah", just because he
> excercised his freedom of speech.
>
> Another man was seriously messed up while standing in his own front
> door opening, just because he's homosexual. In his street, sometimes
> people are shouting "Go away you homo, you're not welcome here. This
> is a Macoccan street!. I'm not discriminating, but Maroccans telling
> Dutch people they aren't welcome in their own captial? I wish _those_
> people would just go back to Marocco.[/color]

Yeah that sucks, but this is the work of fanatics and in no way by the
average, anyone searching for a reason for murder, rape or opression can
find them in any religious context that doesn't matter if it's one of
various christian incarnations, islam or whatever mono/multi/none-god(s)
believes people believe in.
[color=blue]
>
>[color=green]
>>The only serious downsize is that in the Randstad the house prices
>>are too high[/color]
>
>
> Very true. My girlfriend and I are renting a house in the northern
> part of Amsterdam, just above Central Station. We had to search quite
> hard to find that, though!
>
> Sybren[/color]

--
mph

[Sybren Stuvel]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

Martin P. Hellwig enlightened us with:[color=blue]
> Yes it is, and it sucks too[/color]

In Amsterdam, it's the best way to go.
[color=blue]
> or do you find it amusing to ride 15 clicks through rain and wind to
> get to your clients?[/color]

Makes a man out of you ;-) Of course, rain sucks, but as long as it's
not raining too hard it's not really an issue for me.
[color=blue]
> By the way did you notice the "travel across the Randstad" part?[/color]

Sure. I wouldn't want to bike from Amsterdam to Rotterdam either.
[color=blue]
> Yes that reminds me that I had 2 quite expensive abus locks on my
> rather cheap bike, the day after a hack was published on the
> Internet how to open this lock without damaging, the locks where
> stolen but my bike was further untouched, that pretty badly hurt my
> bikes ego I guess.[/color]

LOL :)
[color=blue][color=green]
>> if you have a serious delay, you even get part of your money back.[/color]
>
> They don't do it because they like the customer they do it because
> it's a law.[/color]

I don't mind for what reason they do it. Fact is that they do it.
[color=blue]
> Comparing it to Belgium, France, Luxembourg, Germany, Spain, Norway,
> Swizz etc.etc. okay, but comparing it with a former Communistic
> country?[/color]

Hey, I just had a three week holiday in Croatia with transportation
mostly by train. It made me a lot more positive about the NS.
[color=blue]
> Yeah that sucks, but this is the work of fanatics and in no way by
> the average, anyone searching for a reason for murder, rape or
> opression can find them in any religious context that doesn't matter
> if it's one of various christian incarnations, islam or whatever
> mono/multi/none-god(s) believes people believe in.[/color]

Oh I agree to that. The problem IMHO is that currently the name of
Allah and/or the Islam are used a lot when people are killed, and we
don't see a massive counter-move from other (not mentally insane like
those fanatics) Islamitic people.

Sybren
--
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Frank Zappa

[Reinout van Schouwen]

Re: Should I move to Amsterdam?

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, Wade wrote:
[color=blue]
> Nice little series by Seth Stevenson for Americans daydreaming about
> emigration. Somewhere, anywhere ... maybe Amsterdam?[/color]

For a Python newsgroup, I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet that
Guido van Rossum developed Python at the CWI in Amsterdam (called
Stichting Mathematisch Centrum at the time). Type 'copyright' at the
Python prompt some time.

regards,

--
Reinout van Schouwen *** student of Artifical Intelligence
email: reinout@cs.vu.n l *** mobile phone: +31-6-44360778
www.vanschouwen.info *** help mee met GNOME vertalen: nl.gnome.org

[Terry Reedy]

Re: Language translation possible in python?


"Jon Monteleone" <uomart@ihug.co .nz> wrote in message
news:003301c5a9 72$21bd30e0$570 0a8c0@rmse...[color=blue]
>I have a program that currently displays all of its messages and
>instructions in only
> English. My boss wants me to change it all to Korean. Is there a python
> module that will
> automatically translate my English to Korean?[/color]

You could write something that autosubmitted things to a translation site
like babelfish, Or just catenate all strings into one text and submit that.

There is a system (that I have not used) for internaionalizi ng code that
keeps messages to be translated in a separate resource file. Name excapes
me at the moment though.

Terry J. Reedy

[James]

Re: Language translation possible in python?

As Terry, mentioned BabelFish should be a good resource.

I have used Google Language tools in the past. It worked reasonably
well with French and German. Now they included English to Korean BETA.

[Terry Hancock]

Re: Language translation possible in python?

On Friday 26 August 2005 04:15 pm, Terry Reedy wrote:[color=blue]
> "Jon Monteleone" <uomart@ihug.co .nz> wrote in message
> news:003301c5a9 72$21bd30e0$570 0a8c0@rmse...[color=green]
> >I have a program that currently displays all of its messages and
> >instructions in only
> > English. My boss wants me to change it all to Korean. Is there a python
> > module that will
> > automatically translate my English to Korean?[/color]
>
> You could write something that autosubmitted things to a translation site
> like babelfish, Or just catenate all strings into one text and submit that.[/color]

That would be silly, though. ;-)
[color=blue]
> There is a system (that I have not used) for internaionalizi ng code that
> keeps messages to be translated in a separate resource file. Name excapes
> me at the moment though.[/color]

I think you are looking for gettext. Check out the gettext module in Python,
and do a little googling for "I18N" / "Internationali zation" and/or
"L14N" / "Localizati on" . That will probably turn up some how-tos for dealing
with po files, etc.

If you really want to throw caution to the wind and trust an auto-translation
site instead of just finding someone who speaks fluent Korean and enough
English, then you *could* send each of the statements in the *po* file
through the translator and collect the responses.

But if your boss wants this; you can ask the question here; and you can
understand your boss, then you must have *someone* in your
organization who speaks both languages, surely?

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispacework s.com )
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com