trash talk

**Scott Marlowe** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 13:30, David Parker wrote:[color=blue]
> In an article about IBM's releasing Cloudscape to Apache,
>
> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1630856,00.asp
>
> eWeek says:
>
> "The developer community for Cloudscape now consists of about 80 IBM
> developers, Rivot said. IBM of course anticipates that population will
> explode when the open-source community gets its hand on the code, but
> just because a product goes open source doesn't mean it will succeed, as
> can be witnessed by the failure of the PostgreSQL database to thrive
> under this model."
>
> It's amazing how much list activity there is for this "dead" database!
> ;-)[/color]

That's because he's a marketeer, not a developer or a sysadmin. He only
understands market-speak.

For him, thrive == grow visible market share, make me some money, let me
buy myself an expensive bottle of wine.
For us, thrive == grow user base, developer base, code base, knowledge
base, let me buy a you a pizza.

I.e. the people who use postgresql mostly love, the people who don't
mostly haven't heard of it. No buzz, no hype. For people who rely on
PostgreSQL to get the job done, this is not a disadvantage.

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**Scott Ribe** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

> That's because he's a marketeer, not a developer or a sysadmin. He only[color=blue]
> understands market-speak.[/color]

No, I think he fully understands the relative position of PostgreSQL and its
level of use. Think about it, why did he choose to disrespect this one
particular open-source database out of all the ones available? Because in
the context of that interview he could only squeeze in one such derogatory
comment, and you can be sure he chose his target carefully. When somebody
that highly placed in that large of an organization gives an interview, he
doesn't usually make careless unplanned comments.

I feel good that PostgreSQL has gotten so much attention from IBM--it's a
real sign of accomplishment ;-)

--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@kill erbytes.com

Elevated Software Development, Inc.

http://www.killerbytes.com/

(303) 665-7007 voice

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**Bruce Momjian** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

Scott Marlowe wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 2004-08-03 at 13:30, David Parker wrote:[color=green]
> > In an article about IBM's releasing Cloudscape to Apache,
> >
> > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1630856,00.asp
> >
> > eWeek says:
> >
> > "The developer community for Cloudscape now consists of about 80 IBM
> > developers, Rivot said. IBM of course anticipates that population will
> > explode when the open-source community gets its hand on the code, but
> > just because a product goes open source doesn't mean it will succeed, as
> > can be witnessed by the failure of the PostgreSQL database to thrive
> > under this model."
> >
> > It's amazing how much list activity there is for this "dead" database!
> > ;-)[/color]
>
> That's because he's a marketeer, not a developer or a sysadmin. He only
> understands market-speak.
>
> For him, thrive == grow visible market share, make me some money, let me
> buy myself an expensive bottle of wine.
> For us, thrive == grow user base, developer base, code base, knowledge
> base, let me buy a you a pizza.
>
> I.e. the people who use postgresql mostly love, the people who don't
> mostly haven't heard of it. No buzz, no hype. For people who rely on
> PostgreSQL to get the job done, this is not a disadvantage.[/color]

I think he meant to say SAPDB.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.ph a.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

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**Mike Mascari** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

Scott Ribe wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>That's because he's a marketeer, not a developer or a sysadmin. He only
>>understands market-speak.[/color]
>
>
> No, I think he fully understands the relative position of PostgreSQL and its
> level of use. Think about it, why did he choose to disrespect this one
> particular open-source database out of all the ones available? Because in
> the context of that interview he could only squeeze in one such derogatory
> comment, and you can be sure he chose his target carefully. When somebody
> that highly placed in that large of an organization gives an interview, he
> doesn't usually make careless unplanned comments.
>
> I feel good that PostgreSQL has gotten so much attention from IBM--it's a
> real sign of accomplishment ;-)[/color]

I could be reading it incorrectly, but the paragraph was outside any
attributed quote:

---
The developer community for Cloudscape now consists of about 80 IBM
developers, Rivot said. IBM of course anticipates that population
will explode when the open-source community gets its hand on the
code, but just because a product goes open source doesn't mean it
will succeed, as can be witnessed by the failure of the PostgreSQL
database to thrive under this model.
---

Therefore, the author, Lisa Vass, could well have formulated this
assertion of failure from the deep inner recesses of her own mind.

I also find the other mention of PostgreSQL, which was an
attributable quote, odd:

---
Rivot agreed. "Some of the other ones [such as PostgreSQL], they've
thrown it over the wall to see where it sticks," Rivot said. "In
this case, there is a groundswell [of support], and that caused us
to look and pay attention to it. The usage will continue to grow."
---

What's the point of the square-brackets? Hmm...

Mike Mascari

[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

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**Scott Ribe** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

> I could be reading it incorrectly, but the paragraph was outside any[color=blue]
> attributed quote:[/color]

You are correct that the specific comment about pg not thriving was outside
any quotes. However, given the totality of the references to pg I think it
was a summary of some things Rivot said. As for the point of the square
brackets, those are an editorial device to clarify a quote based on the
omitted context. In other words, for this example they mean that Rivot was
discussing PostgreSQL and that would have been made clear had they provided
a complete transcript.

Of course it is possible that the author misquoted Rivot, or misinterpreted
which database he was referring to.

--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@kill erbytes.com

Elevated Software Development, Inc.

http://www.killerbytes.com/

(303) 665-7007 voice

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**Dave Cramer** · Nov 23 '05, 01:32 AM

Re: trash talk

Interesting, IBM is saying that the code is worth 85M dollars!

On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 00:19, Scott Ribe wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
> > I could be reading it incorrectly, but the paragraph was outside any
> > attributed quote:[/color]
>
> You are correct that the specific comment about pg not thriving was outside
> any quotes. However, given the totality of the references to pg I think it
> was a summary of some things Rivot said. As for the point of the square
> brackets, those are an editorial device to clarify a quote based on the
> omitted context. In other words, for this example they mean that Rivot was
> discussing PostgreSQL and that would have been made clear had they provided
> a complete transcript.
>
> Of course it is possible that the author misquoted Rivot, or misinterpreted
> which database he was referring to.[/color]
--
Dave Cramer
519 939 0336
ICQ # 14675561

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**Scott Ribe** · Nov 23 '05, 01:33 AM

Re: trash talk

> Interesting, IBM is saying that the code is worth 85M dollars!

Well... Actually they're saying: "we paid $85M for it, now we're giving it
away, aren't we generous?"

--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@kill erbytes.com

Elevated Software Development, Inc.

http://www.killerbytes.com/

(303) 665-7007 voice

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**Greg Stark** · Nov 23 '05, 01:33 AM

Re: trash talk

"Scott Marlowe" <smarlowe@qwest .net> writes:
[color=blue]
> This is less than a year after the last major release, 7.3.0 by the way.[/color]

Uhm. Wasn't 7.4 the last major release?

--
greg

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**Scott Marlowe** · Nov 23 '05, 01:33 AM

Re: trash talk

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 12:06, Greg Stark wrote:[color=blue]
> "Scott Marlowe" <smarlowe@qwest .net> writes:
>[color=green]
> > This is less than a year after the last major release, 7.3.0 by the way.[/color]
>
> Uhm. Wasn't 7.4 the last major release?[/color]

Yeah, that was a typo. Thanks for the catch.

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**Mike Mascari** · Nov 23 '05, 01:33 AM

Re: trash talk

Scott Marlowe wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 09:01, Scott Ribe wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Interesting, IBM is saying that the code is worth 85M
>>> dollars![/color]
>>
>> Well... Actually they're saying: "we paid $85M for it, now
>> we're giving it away, aren't we generous?"[/color]
>
>
> Hey guys, after reading the article, I began a dialog with Lisa
> Vaas, the author, and we had quite a civil discourse over it.[/color]

Her continued use of the phrase "the company" still makes me think
she doesn't understand (asterisks added by me):

"You're right, I didn't understand that. I appreciate the
explanation. *It* is markedly different from *other companies* in
*its* structure. I always contact Geoff Davidson, CEO of PostgreSQL
Inc., with the understanding that there basically was a somewhat
standard company-like structure behind the technology. I can see
that I assumed wrong, and I'll proceed differently in my reporting
on *the company* henceforth. At the very least, I'll get people to
explain more fully their dismissal of PostgreSQL so I understand how
it's perceived, and I'll try to correct my own perception.

Thanks again, and thanks of course for the level of refreshingly
civil discourse that is characteristic of the PostgreSQL community.

All my best, Lisa"

Oh, well.

Mike Mascari

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