Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

[Mainlander]

An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like
to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?

[Randolf Richardson, DevNet SysOp 29]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

> An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like[color=blue]
> to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color]

I doubt there's anything in PHP since PHP is a language purely used for
the dynamic generation of web pages (and possibly other types of documents
for any other systems which are able to embed PHP on the server-side in a
similar fashion to Dynamic HTML in the way Apache HTTPd does).

You may have more success if you search on PERL or other languages.

--
Randolf Richardson - rr@8x.ca
Inter-Corporate Computer & Network Services, Inc.
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

http://www.8x.ca/

This message originated from within a secure, reliable,
high-performance network ... a Novell NetWare network.

[Marc G. Fournier]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql


Check Majordomo2, which is what we use for the lists ... it has the
ability to use database backends now, at least for MySQL, and I know a
good portion of code is in place for PostgreSQL also (just not sure to
what extent, haven't braved it yet) ...


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Randolf Richardson, DevNet SysOp 29 wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like
> > to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> > psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color]
>
> I doubt there's anything in PHP since PHP is a language purely used for
> the dynamic generation of web pages (and possibly other types of documents
> for any other systems which are able to embed PHP on the server-side in a
> similar fashion to Dynamic HTML in the way Apache HTTPd does).
>
> You may have more success if you search on PERL or other languages.
>
> --
> Randolf Richardson - rr@8x.ca
> Inter-Corporate Computer & Network Services, Inc.
> Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> http://www.8x.ca/
>
> This message originated from within a secure, reliable,
> high-performance network ... a Novell NetWare network.
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddres sHere" to majordomo@postg resql.org)
>[/color]

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

[Bruno Wolff III]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

> > An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like[color=blue][color=green]
> > to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> > psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color][/color]

Some possible starting points are mailman and ezmlm-idx. I saw someone claim
that mailman version 2.1 was supposed to allow you to use your own database.
ezmlm-idx has support for mysql and so may not be too hard to get to work
with postgres. It does require qmail for an MTA. Bruce Guenter has just
volunteered to take over maintainance from Fred Lindberg so the project
should start seeing some activity again.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postg resql.org

[Marc G. Fournier]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql


Check Majordomo2, which is what we use for the lists ... it has the
ability to use database backends now, at least for MySQL, and I know a
good portion of code is in place for PostgreSQL also (just not sure to
what extent, haven't braved it yet) ...


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Randolf Richardson, DevNet SysOp 29 wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like
> > to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> > psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color]
>
> I doubt there's anything in PHP since PHP is a language purely used for
> the dynamic generation of web pages (and possibly other types of documents
> for any other systems which are able to embed PHP on the server-side in a
> similar fashion to Dynamic HTML in the way Apache HTTPd does).
>
> You may have more success if you search on PERL or other languages.
>
> --
> Randolf Richardson - rr@8x.ca
> Inter-Corporate Computer & Network Services, Inc.
> Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
> http://www.8x.ca/
>
> This message originated from within a secure, reliable,
> high-performance network ... a Novell NetWare network.
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddres sHere" to majordomo@postg resql.org)
>[/color]

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

[Bruno Wolff III]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

> > An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like[color=blue][color=green]
> > to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> > psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color][/color]

Some possible starting points are mailman and ezmlm-idx. I saw someone claim
that mailman version 2.1 was supposed to allow you to use your own database.
ezmlm-idx has support for mysql and so may not be too hard to get to work
with postgres. It does require qmail for an MTA. Bruce Guenter has just
volunteered to take over maintainance from Fred Lindberg so the project
should start seeing some activity again.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postg resql.org

[scott.marlowe]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Randolf Richardson, DevNet SysOp 29 wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > An ISP I belong to uses Majordomo for their mailing list system. I'd like
> > to encourage them to move to a system that uses a database, preferably
> > psql which they already run on their server. Anything out there in Php?[/color]
>
> I doubt there's anything in PHP since PHP is a language purely used for
> the dynamic generation of web pages (and possibly other types of documents
> for any other systems which are able to embed PHP on the server-side in a
> similar fashion to Dynamic HTML in the way Apache HTTPd does).
>
> You may have more success if you search on PERL or other languages.[/color]

This is simply not true. PHP comes in both a web ready embedded version,
as well as a CLI version, and is quite capable, even of handling things
like streams and such, and can even be used to write a daemon listening on
a port quite easily.

Just because it (probably) hasn't been used to write such a system doesn't
mean you couldn't do it in PHP.


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

[Randal L. Schwartz]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

>>>>> "scott" == scott marlowe <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:

scott> This is simply not true. PHP comes in both a web ready
scott> embedded version, as well as a CLI version, and is quite
scott> capable, even of handling things like streams and such, and can
scott> even be used to write a daemon listening on a port quite
scott> easily.

But PHP is where Perl was five years ago, and continually plays
catchup. If you want real work done, use the right tool. PHP is fine
for nifty web pages for smallish sites, but Perl takes over when the
real heavy lifting is needed.

scott> Just because it (probably) hasn't been used to write such a
scott> system doesn't mean you couldn't do it in PHP.

You could do it in assembler too. But why?

To keep from wasting precious human cycles, you need something with
the code density and flexibility of Perl or better. Python, Ruby,
that league. Not C, not Java, not PHP.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehe nge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge. com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.St onehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

[Ericson Smith]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

We use PHP and Perl in our environments here, and are finding daily that
there is less and less need to use Perl for much of anything anymore. At
one point, the only holdup was forking stuff. PHP now has that. We have
been successfully creating various standalone multi-forking servers and
clients in PHP that access Postgresql, the network, and other resources
without a problem. There are thousands and thousands of CLI PHP code in
production over here.

In terms of language denseness... PHP has as much (and much more built
in) functionality as Perl, and if I dare to say so, is cleaner (though
not as elegent) to code in that Perl. There's not much available at CPAN
that is not already in PEAR, or over at PHPCLASSES. In fact, I would
say, that the only catching up that PHP has to do, is in having a great
resource such as CPAN.

PHP has long ago caught up with Perl, and I believe the the OOP features
available in PHP 5, will easily leapfrog over Perl. Having said that, we
still code a lot of Perl, simply because of inertia and an existing
codebase.

Best regards,
Ericson Smith
Developer
+-----------------------+----------------------------+
| http://www.did-it.com | "When I'm paid, I always |
| eric@did-it.com | follow the job through. |
| 516-255-0500 | You know that." -Angel Eyes|
+-----------------------+----------------------------+



Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>>>>"scott" == scott marlowe <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[/color][/color]
>
>scott> This is simply not true. PHP comes in both a web ready
>scott> embedded version, as well as a CLI version, and is quite
>scott> capable, even of handling things like streams and such, and can
>scott> even be used to write a daemon listening on a port quite
>scott> easily.
>
>But PHP is where Perl was five years ago, and continually plays
>catchup. If you want real work done, use the right tool. PHP is fine
>for nifty web pages for smallish sites, but Perl takes over when the
>real heavy lifting is needed.
>
>scott> Just because it (probably) hasn't been used to write such a
>scott> system doesn't mean you couldn't do it in PHP.
>
>You could do it in assembler too. But why?
>
>To keep from wasting precious human cycles, you need something with
>the code density and flexibility of Perl or better. Python, Ruby,
>that league. Not C, not Java, not PHP.
>
>
>[/color]


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[Alvaro Herrera]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 12:42:39PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>>> "scott" == scott marlowe <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:[/color][/color]
>
> scott> This is simply not true. PHP comes in both a web ready
> scott> embedded version, as well as a CLI version, and is quite
> scott> capable, even of handling things like streams and such, and can
> scott> even be used to write a daemon listening on a port quite
> scott> easily.
>
> But PHP is where Perl was five years ago, and continually plays
> catchup. If you want real work done, use the right tool. PHP is fine
> for nifty web pages for smallish sites, but Perl takes over when the
> real heavy lifting is needed.[/color]

Someone pointed out on this list some time ago that you can work around
the performance issue of starting a Perl interpreter and the compiling
phase by using PersistentPerl. I have been using it since for smallish
things and kinda like it but have not really had the chance to test it
extensively. Apparently it can keep persistent connections reasonably
well, for example (though some cruft on sub END is apparently needed ...)

What's your opinion on the thing? Have you used it with PostgreSQL?
Persistent DBI connections and such? Maybe you could write an article
on the subject? :-)


(Maybe this belongs to a Perl list, but I'm on none ... any suggestion
of a better place?)

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"There was no reply" (Kernel Traffic)

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

[scott.marlowe]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On 1 Dec 2003, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>>> "scott" == scott marlowe <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:[/color][/color]
>
> scott> This is simply not true. PHP comes in both a web ready
> scott> embedded version, as well as a CLI version, and is quite
> scott> capable, even of handling things like streams and such, and can
> scott> even be used to write a daemon listening on a port quite
> scott> easily.
>
> But PHP is where Perl was five years ago, and continually plays
> catchup. If you want real work done, use the right tool. PHP is fine
> for nifty web pages for smallish sites, but Perl takes over when the
> real heavy lifting is needed.[/color]

Bold assertion, with little to back it up. Name something Perl is so much
better at than PHP, and you'll likely find that PHP now does it and does
it well.

We quit programming in Perl a couple years ago in my shop, as it was far
easier to configure PHP on a server and have it do what we needed.
[color=blue]
> scott> Just because it (probably) hasn't been used to write such a
> scott> system doesn't mean you couldn't do it in PHP.
>
> You could do it in assembler too. But why?[/color]

Ignoring your assembler point, as it's a poor comparison, and we both know
it...

Why do it in PHP: Because it's a good choice for such things, having
Perl's easy string handling with C's simple file interface functions.
Because there's always somewhere else to go that no one else has thought
of, and a different way of doing it. Because it's a good language that
has a lot of people who say nebulous bad things about it but have pitiful
little real experience with it? I'm not sure.
[color=blue]
> To keep from wasting precious human cycles, you need something with
> the code density and flexibility of Perl or better. Python, Ruby,
> that league. Not C, not Java, not PHP.[/color]

Again, show me an area where PHP is actually deficient here. Something
Perl or Ruby does better that would pertain to a mailing list. Don't just
wave your hands around, give us a concrete example of its short comings.


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

[Alvaro Herrera]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 04:03:02PM -0500, Ericson Smith wrote:
[color=blue]
> PHP has long ago caught up with Perl, and I believe the the OOP features
> available in PHP 5, will easily leapfrog over Perl. Having said that, we
> still code a lot of Perl, simply because of inertia and an existing
> codebase.[/color]

Huh, when is PHP 5 due? When is Perl 6 due?

Does Parrot have an working implementation? Is it useful for anything?

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
Jude: I wish humans laid eggs
Ringlord: Why would you want humans to lay eggs?
Jude: So I can eat them

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Greg Stark]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql


"scott.marl owe" <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> Again, show me an area where PHP is actually deficient here. Something
> Perl or Ruby does better that would pertain to a mailing list. Don't just
> wave your hands around, give us a concrete example of its short comings.[/color]

Error handling. The lack of exceptions is driving me absolutely insane.

But what does all this all this have to do with Postgres?

--
greg


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[scott.marlowe]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On 1 Dec 2003, Greg Stark wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> "scott.marl owe" <scott.marlowe@ ihs.com> writes:
>[color=green]
> > Again, show me an area where PHP is actually deficient here. Something
> > Perl or Ruby does better that would pertain to a mailing list. Don't just
> > wave your hands around, give us a concrete example of its short comings.[/color]
>
> Error handling. The lack of exceptions is driving me absolutely insane.[/color]

Have you had a look at this:

http://www.phpclasses.org/mirrors.html?page=%2Fbrowse.html%2Fpackage%2F345.html

[color=blue]
> But what does all this all this have to do with Postgres?[/color]

Tangential, tangential. But it appears every time someone mentions using
PHP around here he gets bashed for it. It's tiring to listen to.


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postg resql.org

[Christopher Murtagh]

Re: Good open source mailing list system PHP / Postgresql

On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 15:42, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:[color=blue]
> But PHP is where Perl was five years ago, and continually plays
> catchup. If you want real work done, use the right tool. PHP is fine
> for nifty web pages for smallish sites, but Perl takes over when the
> real heavy lifting is needed.
>
> scott> Just because it (probably) hasn't been used to write such a
> scott> system doesn't mean you couldn't do it in PHP.
>
> You could do it in assembler too. But why?
>
> To keep from wasting precious human cycles, you need something with
> the code density and flexibility of Perl or better. Python, Ruby,
> that league. Not C, not Java, not PHP.[/color]

Sorry, but this doesn't match my experiences (well, I agree with C and
Java). I built and manage the CMS for www.mcgill.ca. It currenlty has
over 10k pages in the system, and has distributed content management to
over 1000 people on campus. Previous versions of it were written
entirely in Perl, and I was pretty happy with it at the time. However,
about two years ago, we re-wrote it in PHP and haven't regretted it one
bit. Some of the advantages we noticed:

1) Development time was much faster.

2) It is much easier to find/hire PHP programmers than Perl
programmers.

3) Building templates with embedded code is much easier/more intuitive
in PHP than Perl.

4) Despite using rigid coding standards, our old PHP code is much
easier to read than our old Perl code.

5) When a programmer gets stuck trying to find a solution to a
particular problem, often a simple google search finds a hint/solution.
This wasn't always the case with Perl.

6) Even now, after using Perl for a number of years longer than PHP, I
still find myself opening the camel and/or lama books for reminders.
While these books are well written :-), I don't have to do so nearly as
often in PHP, and when I do need info on a function ->
http://ca.php.net/functionname.

Having said that, there are still lots of things in Perl that I love
and wish were in PHP. The Perl community seems much better at organizing
the language development. PHP has all sorts of really stupid
inconsistencies , like string replacement functions that take parameters
in different orders (needle, haystack, subject), (haystack, needle,
subject), etc.. I suspect that this will improve as the language matures
and the community gets better organized.

Also, things seem less likely to break when a new version of Perl comes
out, whereas often minor versions of PHP break all sorts of tiny things
that one wouldn't expect. This is a *BIG* PITA.

So, while I still do all of my batch processing and system stuff in
Perl, I have no plans on going back to doing web work with it.

Cheers,

Chris

--
Christopher Murtagh
Enterprise Systems Administrator
ISR / Web Communications Group
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec
Canada

Tel.: (514) 398-3122
Fax: (514) 398-2017

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
(send "unregister YourEmailAddres sHere" to majordomo@postg resql.org)