Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

[doznot]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

-Lost wrote:

Response to doznot <david.oznot@gm ail.com>:
>

>Lars Eighner wrote:
>>

>>Then, if you already have the answer, why are you asking us?

>I asked about security issues.
>Everybody told me I had a bad idea.
>>
>But I have a very good idea.
>I have happy students who learned a great deal in a short period
>of time.
>>
>Every educator I have shown this
>to is pressuring me to publish immediately.
>But I'll wait a year. When I get all the bugs out I'll publish
>then, and make a name for myself.
>>
>It does look like I'll have to get there without much help
>from usenet. Imagine that.

>
I can understand your frustration as I've met many a USENET Nazi
who preferred arrogant banter as opposed to outright help...
>
...but I haven't seen them here. Nor in this thread. A REAL
teacher seeks to educate, not spoon feed -- which is exactly what
Mr. Stuckle did for you (not spoon feed you that is). Geoff also
gave you a great pointer on Notepad2 which you just questioned
instead of checking it out. Not too swift in my opinion but it's
just my opinion.

Notepad2 is great. But it is a windows exe.
How can a student in a Windows lab, who does not have permission
to download an exe make use of it?

>
Now, instead of the extremely convoluted method you are pursuing
why not have them download an "all-in-one" solution? XAMPP lite
for example, easy, quick and doesn't require anything but to
install (unless they changed something drastically).
>

Because they have no permission to download.

Students can simply LEARN to store their code in ONE single place
using a VERY good editor like NOTEPAD2 (although I hate it) and
open those pages in THEIR browser. It's been my experience those
who wish to learn will overcome these minor obstacles. If you
don't expect your students to do the same then I'd not allow you to
teach my children.
>

They are smart kids who learn quickly with the tools given them.
But in this case they are given computers without ftp, without Notepad++
and they have no authority or permission to change that, and neither do
I. I said that a half a dozen times.

No offense, no harm... but stop going on about how useless USENET
is and see the words for what they are -- information for you to
use, not feel the need to defend yourself.
>
Good luck.
>

[-Lost]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

Response to doznot <david.oznot@gm ail.com>:

<snip>

They are smart kids who learn quickly with the tools given them.
But in this case they are given computers without ftp, without
Notepad++ and they have no authority or permission to change
that, and neither do I. I said that a half a dozen times.

Ah, terribly sorry, I took: "Editing on their own box? I suppose."
to mean um... "their own box." Not a computer assigned to them by
their institution.

How about providing them all the information about Notepad2, XAMPP
et cetera and encourage them to do this at home -- in the meantime
create a small batch file (as plain text they can rename to BAT)
they can have in their scripting directory that uploads their work
via the command-line FTP?

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.

[doznot]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

-Lost wrote:

>
How about providing them all the information about Notepad2, XAMPP
et cetera and encourage them to do this at home

These particular students seem to me to have the same bell curve
on intelligence as any other group I've ever encountered.
Almost none of them have computers at home. That's all I'm going
to say about who and where. They want to learn about the internet
badly.

[Lars Eighner]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

In our last episode, <EdWdnfasl7zyvU 3VnZ2dnUVZ_hGdn Z2d@bresnan.com >, the
lovely and talented doznot broadcast on comp.lang.php:

-Lost wrote:

>>
>How about providing them all the information about Notepad2, XAMPP
>et cetera and encourage them to do this at home

These particular students seem to me to have the same bell curve
on intelligence as any other group I've ever encountered.
Almost none of them have computers at home. That's all I'm going
to say about who and where. They want to learn about the internet
badly.

Then PHP is a horrible place to start. If they want to learn about the web,
HTML is where to start. If they can ever get to a browser that can show
source (which would be about all of them) with an internet connection, they
can see HTML and they can learn what hypertext is. Unless they found some
very broken pages, they will not see php on the web --- certainly none that
works. If they cannot write valid HTML, they cannot use PHP to create valid
pages.

For simple includes and question and response forms, the truth to tell,
there are better scripting languages than PHP --- you aren't expecting
pupils who cannot use a text editor to understand using a database, are you?

To answer your original question: there are simple editors in Javascript.
There are tons of them on the web for free. (More than 1.3 million hits for
free Javascript editor on google.) I'm no fan of Javascript, but just about
every GUI browser can use it.

--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/usenet@larseigh ner.com
War on Terrorism: Treat Readers like Mushrooms
"If the story needs rewriting to play down the civilian casualties, DO IT."
-Memo, _Panama City_ (FL) _News Herald_

[Curtis]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

doznot wrote:

-Lost wrote:

>Response to doznot <david.oznot@gm ail.com>:
>>

>>Lars Eighner wrote:
>>>
>>>Then, if you already have the answer, why are you asking us?
>>I asked about security issues.
>>Everybody told me I had a bad idea.
>>>
>>But I have a very good idea.
>>I have happy students who learned a great deal in a short period
>>of time.
>>Every educator I have shown this
>>to is pressuring me to publish immediately.
>>But I'll wait a year. When I get all the bugs out I'll publish
>>then, and make a name for myself.
>>>
>>It does look like I'll have to get there without much help
>>from usenet. Imagine that.

>>
>I can understand your frustration as I've met many a USENET Nazi who
>preferred arrogant banter as opposed to outright help...
>>
>...but I haven't seen them here. Nor in this thread. A REAL teacher
>seeks to educate, not spoon feed -- which is exactly what Mr. Stuckle
>did for you (not spoon feed you that is). Geoff also gave you a great
>pointer on Notepad2 which you just questioned instead of checking it
>out. Not too swift in my opinion but it's just my opinion.

>
Notepad2 is great. But it is a windows exe.
How can a student in a Windows lab, who does not have permission
to download an exe make use of it?
>

>>
>Now, instead of the extremely convoluted method you are pursuing why
>not have them download an "all-in-one" solution? XAMPP lite for
>example, easy, quick and doesn't require anything but to install
>(unless they changed something drastically).
>>

Because they have no permission to download.
>

>Students can simply LEARN to store their code in ONE single place
>using a VERY good editor like NOTEPAD2 (although I hate it) and open
>those pages in THEIR browser. It's been my experience those who wish
>to learn will overcome these minor obstacles. If you don't expect
>your students to do the same then I'd not allow you to teach my children.
>>

They are smart kids who learn quickly with the tools given them.
But in this case they are given computers without ftp, without Notepad++
and they have no authority or permission to change that, and neither do
I. I said that a half a dozen times.

You might want to appeal to those who do have the authority, if
possible. A decent text editor and at least the ability to use virtual
hosting to provide each student with their own areas in which to work
is a must. An FTP server would also make the process much easier.

These are tools to help accomplish needed tasks, not give people
trouble. If you can make a case for such things to be installed to
those in charge, that would be preferred.

>No offense, no harm... but stop going on about how useless USENET is
>and see the words for what they are -- information for you to use, not
>feel the need to defend yourself.
>>
>Good luck.

--
Curtis

[Geoff Berrow]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

Message-ID: <Sf2dnVEFCb23dl LVnZ2dnUVZ_oPin Z2d@bresnan.com from doznot
contained the following:

>You can get a small, lightweight editor that does not need to be
>installed.

>
>...I'm not sure what this means: " does not need to be installed "
>If it is a windows exe, then it has to be installed on the client
>box somehow, no?

Well it runs on the client, yes, but as I say it's very small.

And in my case, the client boxes are hundreds of
>miles away.

Why does that matter? I'd supply them with a copy of Notepad 2, a bit
of php enabled webspace and ftp access to it. Doesn't matter where they
are then.
--
Geoff Berrow 011000100110110 0010000000110
001101101011011 001000110111101 100111001011
100110001101101 111001011100111 010101101011
http://slipperyhill.co.uk - http://4theweb.co.uk

[Geoff Berrow]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

Message-ID: <kPKdnQA6qY0uhE 3VnZ2dnUVZ_h2dn Z2d@bresnan.com from doznot
contained the following:

>Notepad2 is great. But it is a windows exe.
>How can a student in a Windows lab, who does not have permission
>to download an exe make use of it?

I see. I used to be a teacher and came across similar problems. It's
like swimming with your hands tied behind your back. Bloody stupid.

I solved the problem by having a separate server on the network that the
students could use as a sandbox.

--
Geoff Berrow 011000100110110 0010000000110
001101101011011 001000110111101 100111001011
100110001101101 111001011100111 010101101011
http://slipperyhill.co.uk - http://4theweb.co.uk

[Richard]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class


"doznot" <david.oznot@gm ail.comwrote in message
news:R--dncbIlrsgXlLVnZ 2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@ bresnan.com...

Let's say you want to use Moodle to teach an introductory class in
PHP programming. Some of the students have little or no computer
experience.
>
In addition to background reading and topics-oriented assignments
supplied by Moodle, you want to build an online text editor into the
course, so students can type their PHP programs and HTML directly
into files on the server, so they don't have to fight with NotePad
on Windows PCs in a lab, and so beginning students don't have to
fight with FTP to get their work onto the webserver.
>
You could make a form: (no error checking etc. for simplicity)
$path =
$_GET['dirpath']. '/myassignment';
echo '<form action="'.$_SER VER['PHP_SELF'].'" method="post">< br>
<textarea name="editor">' .@file_get_cont ents($path).'</textarea>
<input type="submit"></form>';
>
if($_SERVER['REQUEST_METHOD '] == 'POST')
{
$fp = fopen($path,"w" );
fwrite($fp,$_PO ST['editor']);
fclose($fp);
}
>
Most developers like to clean user input with addslashes or
htmlentities in the POST processing. But if you do that in the
"online code editor" case you get code that won't run or display.
So, if you do not addslashes, but you still want to cover your
bases, what are the issues?
>
Students would have to login (password) to get access to the editor.
So this editor is not available to the world at large. But trusting
passworded students still may not be a good idea. fopen would have
to be limited to specific location patterns. Perhaps you would have
to use regular expressions to look for javascript, and then to strip
it out. But what do you do if you want to teach javascript? Is an
online editor any more dangerous than letting students upload code
via FTP?

Hi,

I think the idea is not so bad as many people here think.
I can surely see advantages in this setup, nice to see someone
thinking outside the box :)

I think you have to be sure about backups, and maybe even images of
the server-system.
Maybe a virtual machine comes in handy here? Keep a fresh machine copy
and you are ready to start again.
Dont forget backups of course in case someone finds a hole in the
fence... :)

If you can isolate the users from eachother, and keep them away from
essential system functions, it can work well. Then it is not more
dangerous than FTP IMHO.

Before yuo start thinking of specific things like slashes and
entities, get a secure server setup working first.
Setup PHP as secure as possible by disabling everything you dont need
(google can help). Then have a hack at it yourself. Or have someone
hack it, I guess plenty of volunteers around! ;)

R.

[r0g]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

doznot wrote:

Let's say you want to use Moodle to teach an introductory class in PHP
programming. Some of the students have little or no computer experience.
>
In addition to background reading and topics-oriented assignments
supplied by Moodle, you want to build an online text editor into the
course, so students can type their PHP programs and HTML directly into
files on the server, so they don't have to fight with NotePad on Windows
PCs in a lab, and so beginning students don't have to fight with FTP to
get their work onto the webserver.
>
You could make a form: (no error checking etc. for simplicity)
$path =
$_GET['dirpath']. '/myassignment';
echo '<form action="'.$_SER VER['PHP_SELF'].'" method="post">< br>
<textarea name="editor">' .@file_get_cont ents($path).'</textarea>
<input type="submit"></form>';
>
if($_SERVER['REQUEST_METHOD '] == 'POST')
{
$fp = fopen($path,"w" );
fwrite($fp,$_PO ST['editor']);
fclose($fp);
}
>
Most developers like to clean user input with addslashes or htmlentities
in the POST processing. But if you do that in the "online code editor"
case you get code that won't run or display. So, if you do not
addslashes, but you still want to cover your bases, what are the issues?
>
Students would have to login (password) to get access to the editor. So
this editor is not available to the world at large. But trusting
passworded students still may not be a good idea. fopen would have to be
limited to specific location patterns. Perhaps you would have to use
regular expressions to look for javascript, and then to strip it out.
But what do you do if you want to teach javascript? Is an online editor
any more dangerous than letting students upload code via FTP?

Hi there,

No it's no more dangerous than FTP so long as you take good care to
exclude the general public. You can give them all their own subdomain
and webspace, limit access to it with httpauth and use a simple
upload/editor script like you suggest. Even with all the power functions
locked down there's still an awful lot of useful stuff they could learn.

I shouldn't worry about the javascript - it's client side anyway. If
each student has their own vhost who can they harm with javascript
except themselves?

You might want to ensure E_ALL error reporting is set for every script
they run and you might want to look into Geshi for syntax highlighting
and maybe throw a HTML validator inline.

Interesting idea, good luck with it :)

Roger Heathcote.

[doznot]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

r0g wrote:

doznot wrote:

>Let's say you want to use Moodle to teach an introductory class in PHP
>programming. Some of the students have little or no computer experience.
>>
>In addition to background reading and topics-oriented assignments
>supplied by Moodle, you want to build an online text editor into the
>course, so students can type their PHP programs and HTML directly into
>files on the server, so they don't have to fight with NotePad on Windows
>PCs in a lab, and so beginning students don't have to fight with FTP to
>get their work onto the webserver.
>>
>You could make a form: (no error checking etc. for simplicity)
>$path =
>$_GET['dirpath']. '/myassignment';
>echo '<form action="'.$_SER VER['PHP_SELF'].'" method="post">< br>
><textarea name="editor">' .@file_get_cont ents($path).'</textarea>
><input type="submit"></form>';
>>
>if($_SERVER['REQUEST_METHOD '] == 'POST')
>{
>$fp = fopen($path,"w" );
>fwrite($fp,$_P OST['editor']);
>fclose($fp);
>}
>>
>Most developers like to clean user input with addslashes or htmlentities
>in the POST processing. But if you do that in the "online code editor"
>case you get code that won't run or display. So, if you do not
>addslashes, but you still want to cover your bases, what are the issues?
>>
>Students would have to login (password) to get access to the editor. So
>this editor is not available to the world at large. But trusting
>passworded students still may not be a good idea. fopen would have to be
>limited to specific location patterns. Perhaps you would have to use
>regular expressions to look for javascript, and then to strip it out.
>But what do you do if you want to teach javascript? Is an online editor
>any more dangerous than letting students upload code via FTP?

>
>
Hi there,
>
No it's no more dangerous than FTP so long as you take good care to
exclude the general public. You can give them all their own subdomain
and webspace, limit access to it with httpauth and use a simple
upload/editor script like you suggest. Even with all the power functions
locked down there's still an awful lot of useful stuff they could learn.
>
I shouldn't worry about the javascript - it's client side anyway. If
each student has their own vhost who can they harm with javascript
except themselves?
>
You might want to ensure E_ALL error reporting is set for every script
they run and you might want to look into Geshi for syntax highlighting
and maybe throw a HTML validator inline.
>
Interesting idea, good luck with it :)
>
Roger Heathcote.

Thank you. Subdomains do seem like the way to go.
There is a huge third world need for this: a way to teach
IT skills to a "behind the digital divide" audience that has no
connectivity at home.

Server-side linux boxes are cheap and millions of dollars of grant
money are available for setting up centralized distance learning
centers. But connecting cutting-edge server technology to aging windows
machines in poorly funded (often amazingly) remotely-located rural
schools is a challenge. That's what I'm trying to accomplish.

[r0g]

Re: Online code editor for beginner's PHP class

doznot wrote:

r0g wrote:

>doznot wrote:

>>Let's say you want to use Moodle to teach an introductory class in PHP
>>programming . Some of the students have little or no computer experience.
>>>
>>In addition to background reading and topics-oriented assignments
>>supplied by Moodle, you want to build an online text editor into the
>>course, so students can type their PHP programs and HTML directly into
>>files on the server, so they don't have to fight with NotePad on Windows
>>PCs in a lab, and so beginning students don't have to fight with FTP to
>>get their work onto the webserver.
>>>
>>You could make a form: (no error checking etc. for simplicity)
>>$path =
>>$_GET['dirpath']. '/myassignment';
>>echo '<form action="'.$_SER VER['PHP_SELF'].'" method="post">< br>
>><textarea name="editor">' .@file_get_cont ents($path).'</textarea>
>><input type="submit"></form>';
>>>
>>if($_SERVER['REQUEST_METHOD '] == 'POST')
>>{
>>$fp = fopen($path,"w" );
>>fwrite($fp,$_ POST['editor']);
>>fclose($fp) ;
>>}
>>>
>>Most developers like to clean user input with addslashes or htmlentities
>>in the POST processing. But if you do that in the "online code editor"
>>case you get code that won't run or display. So, if you do not
>>addslashes, but you still want to cover your bases, what are the issues?
>>>
>>Students would have to login (password) to get access to the editor. So
>>this editor is not available to the world at large. But trusting
>>passworded students still may not be a good idea. fopen would have to be
>>limited to specific location patterns. Perhaps you would have to use
>>regular expressions to look for javascript, and then to strip it out.
>>But what do you do if you want to teach javascript? Is an online editor
>>any more dangerous than letting students upload code via FTP?

>>
>>
>Hi there,
>>
>No it's no more dangerous than FTP so long as you take good care to
>exclude the general public. You can give them all their own subdomain
>and webspace, limit access to it with httpauth and use a simple
>upload/editor script like you suggest. Even with all the power functions
>locked down there's still an awful lot of useful stuff they could learn.
>>
>I shouldn't worry about the javascript - it's client side anyway. If
>each student has their own vhost who can they harm with javascript
>except themselves?
>>
>You might want to ensure E_ALL error reporting is set for every script
>they run and you might want to look into Geshi for syntax highlighting
>and maybe throw a HTML validator inline.
>>
>Interesting idea, good luck with it :)
>>
>Roger Heathcote.

>
Thank you. Subdomains do seem like the way to go.
There is a huge third world need for this: a way to teach
IT skills to a "behind the digital divide" audience that has no
connectivity at home.
>
Server-side linux boxes are cheap and millions of dollars of grant
money are available for setting up centralized distance learning
centers. But connecting cutting-edge server technology to aging windows
machines in poorly funded (often amazingly) remotely-located rural
schools is a challenge. That's what I'm trying to accomplish.

Well that's a very laudable aim and I wish you the best in it. In fact,
if you think I may be able to help in any way (I program php, python and
web on windows and linux) please get in touch with me via my website
http://www.technicalbloke.com :-)

All the best,

Roger Heathcote.