PHP v Python: fair comparison?

[walterbyrd]

I don't know if this is a fair comparison or not. Any comments
appreciated.

- Python is more readable, and more general purpose
- PHP has awful backward compatibility
- PHP has a lower barrier to entry
- Most inexpensive web-hosters support PHP, but not Python
- PHP has far more pre-writen scripts available
- mod_python is difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone to
crash
- There is more demand for PHP developers, than Python developers

[Erwin Moller]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

walterbyrd wrote:

I don't know if this is a fair comparison or not. Any comments
appreciated.
>
- Python is more readable, and more general purpose
- PHP has awful backward compatibility
- PHP has a lower barrier to entry
- Most inexpensive web-hosters support PHP, but not Python
- PHP has far more pre-writen scripts available
- mod_python is difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone to
crash
- There is more demand for PHP developers, than Python developers

Hi,

I just had a talk/meeting with a representative of my provider(ISP) about
our machine, and after that we went to get a beer in the sun.
He told me that his company was focussing more and more on Python because
many (some?) organisations perceive it as a more serious language than PHP.
That is what he claimed.
Bullocks if you ask me, and he agreed, but that is what some clients of him
think for some reason.

I never used Python seriously myself (only a little in a CMS called ZOPE),
so I won't make a judgement myself.

Regards,
Erwin Moller

[Chung Leong]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

Erwin Moller wrote:

>
I just had a talk/meeting with a representative of my provider(ISP) about
our machine, and after that we went to get a beer in the sun.
He told me that his company was focussing more and more on Python because
many (some?) organisations perceive it as a more serious language than PHP.
That is what he claimed.

How people perceive you, of course, has much to do with the image that
you try to project. As it's election season here in the US I will use
politics as an analogy. A politician has to stand for something. If you
change your platform every other day in response to criticism, then
you'll be seen as a lightweight. The public doesn't trust someone who
blows with the wind.

That's the problem with PHP. The developers don't seem to know what
makes the language successful. Development is so focused on appeasing
detractors that they're willing to sacrifice backward compatibility. If
it's not this feature being deprecated then it's that feature being
changed/removed. It's as though winning the PHP vs. Python or PHP vs.
Java or whatever debate is more important than being useful.

[grahamd@dscpl.com.au]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

walterbyrd wrote:

I don't know if this is a fair comparison or not. Any comments
appreciated.
>
...
- mod_python is difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone to
crash

Most of the time when people have problems with mod_python it is
because they use outdated versions, read the documentation for the
wrong version, or don't even bother to read or understand the
documentation in the first place. It is accepted that the documentation
could be a lot better, but there is a very active mailing list where
you can get help, but a lot of people don't even do that.

So mod_python is more than usable if you put the effort in to
understand it properly. There are some known issues at present which
are more an inconvenience than a problem and even they are fixed in a
release hopefully not too long away.

Perhaps you would like to come over onto the mod_python mailing list
and enumerate your issues in detail and we can address your questions
and point out where you may have gone wrong or what the issue is,
rather than simple suggesting it is all crap.

Graham

[Michael Fesser]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

..oO(Chung Leong)

>How people perceive you, of course, has much to do with the image that
>you try to project. As it's election season here in the US [...]

Maybe they should use PHP on the election machines in Florida ...

>That's the problem with PHP. The developers don't seem to know what
>makes the language successful. Development is so focused on appeasing
>detractors that they're willing to sacrifice backward compatibility.

I partly agree, but there are some things that simply _must_ be changed,
regardless of backward compatibility. There were some real errors made
in the beginning of PHP (register_globa ls, just to name one). Fixing
them can't be done without breaking compatibility. But I consider that a
good thing. Properly written scripts still work, others need a rewrite.

Micha

[walterbyrd]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?


grahamd@dscpl.c om.au wrote:

Perhaps you would like to come over onto the mod_python mailing list
and enumerate your issues in detail and we can address your questions
and point out where you may have gone wrong or what the issue is,
rather than simple suggesting it is all crap.

Excuse me, but I did no such thing. I thank you for your response, but
I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. Re-read my original
post, I never suggested it was all crap, or anything of the sort.

[grahamd@dscpl.com.au]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

walterbyrd wrote:

grahamd@dscpl.c om.au wrote:
>

Perhaps you would like to come over onto the mod_python mailing list
and enumerate your issues in detail and we can address your questions
and point out where you may have gone wrong or what the issue is,
rather than simple suggesting it is all crap.

>
>
Excuse me, but I did no such thing. I thank you for your response, but
I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. Re-read my original
post, I never suggested it was all crap, or anything of the sort.

Your words were 'difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone
to crash'. That 'crap' means 'something of extremely poor quality', in
my part of the world, how you described it gives similar connotations.
Anyway, you can say that 'crap' may have been the wrong word to use,
but then you didn't have anything good to say about it either. :-)

[Chung Leong]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

Michael Fesser wrote:

That's the problem with PHP. The developers don't seem to know what
makes the language successful. Development is so focused on appeasing
detractors that they're willing to sacrifice backward compatibility.

>
I partly agree, but there are some things that simply _must_ be changed,
regardless of backward compatibility. There were some real errors made
in the beginning of PHP (register_globa ls, just to name one). Fixing
them can't be done without breaking compatibility. But I consider that a
good thing. Properly written scripts still work, others need a rewrite.
>
Micha

There are ways you can implement changes without breaking earlier code.
For example, you can supercede register_global s with an "import"
keyword, like this:

<?php

import get $pid, $sort = 0;

If the keyword is present, then no auto registration occurs and only
those listed are available. That confines the change to just new code.

Another way you can handle changes is to toggle between new and old
behavior depending on file extension.

Basically if there is a will, there is a way. Unfortunately the PHP
folks seems to believe that if code changes required are small, then
they're okay. That's crappy assumption to make. Not all codebases are
actively managed. Even small changes would be a major effort if someone
has to sit down and figure out what some existing code does. Moreover,
when you have code that's widely used, the logistics of distributing
the change are formidable.

[walterbyrd]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?


grahamd@dscpl.c om.au wrote:

Your words were 'difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone
to crash'.

Those are not *my* words. I have never used mod_python, and I have no
personal opinion. However, I have been trying to do some research,
reading forums and the like. I thought I made it clear, that was just
what I've read, and I am asking for other opinions.

>From what I have read, a lot of people seem to have a lot of trouble

with mod_python.

I posted here because I wonderd what people on this forum thought of
mod_python.

[Krustov]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

<comp.lang.ph p>
<walterbyrd>
<2 Nov 2006 07:21:03 -0800>
<1162480863.637 943.114510@h48g 2000cwc.googleg roups.com>

I don't know if this is a fair comparison or not. Any comments
appreciated.
>
- Python is more readable, and more general purpose
- PHP has awful backward compatibility
- PHP has a lower barrier to entry
- Most inexpensive web-hosters support PHP, but not Python
- PHP has far more pre-writen scripts available
- mod_python is difficult to set up, and use, and is buggy and prone to
crash
- There is more demand for PHP developers, than Python developers
>

Its doesnt really matter one way or the other .

Even if python does become more popular - any web hosting company who
removes php would be cutting their own thoats by losing x percent of
existing customers and preventing x percent of potential new customers
from signing up .


--

https://www.phpchatroom.co.uk

[Tim Roberts]

Re: PHP v Python: fair comparison?

"walterbyrd " <walterbyrd@ina me.comwrote:

>
>From what I have read, a lot of people seem to have a lot of trouble
>with mod_python.
>
>I posted here because I wonderd what people on this forum thought of
>mod_python.

Surely it would be better to ask that particular question on
comp.lang.pytho n, not comp.lang.php.

There are many ways to implement high-performance Python-based web sites
without using mod_python.
--
Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.