Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

[Joshua Beall]

Hi All,

I read in a forum somewhere that namespaces, though once supposed to be a
part of PHP5, have been removed. Is this true? Can anyone show me the
official statement by Zend that they decided to forget about namespaces?
Why would they do this?

I could really use namespaces. If they canned this idea, that is quite a
disappointment :-/ Guess you cannot win them all.

-Josh

[Phil Roberts]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

With total disregard for any kind of safety measures "Joshua
Beall" <jbeall@donotsp am.remove.me.he raldic.us> leapt forth and
uttered:
[color=blue]
> Hi All,
>
> I read in a forum somewhere that namespaces, though once
> supposed to be a part of PHP5, have been removed. Is this true?
> Can anyone show me the official statement by Zend that they
> decided to forget about namespaces? Why would they do this?
>[/color]

From the Zend changelog:

Version 5.0.0 Beta 2
30-Oct-2003
Lots and lots of changes in the Zend Engine 2 since beta 1:
* Removed the not so working namespaces support

I've lost the links to the original reasonings given by Andi
Gutmans and Zeev Suraski, but heres one link:

http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showpost.php?p=810895&postcount=34

--
Phil Roberts | Nobody In Particular | http://www.flatnet.net/

[Chung Leong]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Because it was pretty pointless that way it was implemented. You can't
import names from a namespace, so everytime you use something from within
it, you have to tag on the namespace identifier.

Uzytkownik "Joshua Beall" <jbeall@donotsp am.remove.me.he raldic.us> napisal w
wiadomosci news:iGNUb.1524 4$EH5.3281@nwrd dc01.gnilink.ne t...[color=blue]
> Hi All,
>
> I read in a forum somewhere that namespaces, though once supposed to be a
> part of PHP5, have been removed. Is this true? Can anyone show me the
> official statement by Zend that they decided to forget about namespaces?
> Why would they do this?
>
> I could really use namespaces. If they canned this idea, that is quite a
> disappointment :-/ Guess you cannot win them all.
>
> -Josh
>
>[/color]

[Joshua Beall]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

"Chung Leong" <chernyshevsky@ hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZYadnRmcsY 1zu7nd4p2dnA@co mcast.com...[color=blue]
> Because it was pretty pointless that way it was implemented. You can't
> import names from a namespace, so everytime you use something from within
> it, you have to tag on the namespace identifier.[/color]

That's too bad. I wonder, how well can I emulate namespaces using nested
classes? Is there any way to "import" the contents of a class?

[Janwillem Borleffs]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Joshua Beall wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi All,
>
> I read in a forum somewhere that namespaces, though once supposed to
> be a part of PHP5, have been removed. Is this true? Can anyone show
> me the official statement by Zend that they decided to forget about
> namespaces? Why would they do this?
>[/color]

Quote from http://www.php.net/ChangeLog-5.php (version 5.0.0 beta 2,
30-Oct-2003):

"Removed the not so working namespaces support"

I don't know why exactly, but I have a feeling the developers wanted to
focus on other parts of PHP 5 instead.


JW

[Chung Leong]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Personally, I never liked namespace. Its need is understandable in C++,
where you link in binary libraries and there's no other workaround for name
collisions. With PHP you can just rename the class/function. And namespace
promotes bloated class libraries, which affects runtime performance in PHP.
When the number of classes is large enough where name collision is an issue,
you scripts are probably all crawling.

Uzytkownik "Joshua Beall" <jbeall@donotsp am.remove.me.he raldic.us> napisal w
wiadomosci news:kLVUb.1564 5$9a7.7081@nwrd dc02.gnilink.ne t...[color=blue]
> "Chung Leong" <chernyshevsky@ hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ZYadnRmcsY 1zu7nd4p2dnA@co mcast.com...[color=green]
> > Because it was pretty pointless that way it was implemented. You can't
> > import names from a namespace, so everytime you use something from[/color][/color]
within[color=blue][color=green]
> > it, you have to tag on the namespace identifier.[/color]
>
> That's too bad. I wonder, how well can I emulate namespaces using nested
> classes? Is there any way to "import" the contents of a class?
>
>[/color]

[Alex Farran]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Chung Leong writes:
[color=blue]
> Personally, I never liked namespace. Its need is understandable in C++,
> where you link in binary libraries and there's no other workaround for name
> collisions. With PHP you can just rename the class/function.[/color]

You mean search and replace for every occurance of the duplicate
class? It's feasible, but not always very practical, and you need to
know that a name collision exists to begin with. The best practical
alternative to namespaces is a class naming convention, and that has
its own problems.
[color=blue]
> And namespace promotes bloated class libraries, which affects
> runtime performance in PHP. When the number of classes is large
> enough where name collision is an issue, you scripts are probably
> all crawling.[/color]

Only if you include them all at once. You could have a vast library
of classes available, but only include the ones you need as you need
them. Or leave it to the optimiser to cache your classes. For PHP to
be taken seriously as an enterprise programming language, it must be
possible to write large systems in it. Namespaces make large systems
easier to write.

Apart from name collision prevention, namespaces also provide another
scope for class member access. Classes in the same namespace can
access each others members, but deny access to classes outside the
namespace. Without namespaces you must declare such members public
and hope for the best.

--

__o Alex Farran
_`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
(_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

[Chung Leong]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Being a incorrigible PHP Maoist, I say down with class hierarchy and screw
private variable.

Long live the global scope!

Uzytkownik "Alex Farran" <alex@alexfarra n.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:m3znbuskin .fsf@alexfarran .com...[color=blue]
> Chung Leong writes:
>[color=green]
> > Personally, I never liked namespace. Its need is understandable in C++,
> > where you link in binary libraries and there's no other workaround for[/color][/color]
name[color=blue][color=green]
> > collisions. With PHP you can just rename the class/function.[/color]
>
> You mean search and replace for every occurance of the duplicate
> class? It's feasible, but not always very practical, and you need to
> know that a name collision exists to begin with. The best practical
> alternative to namespaces is a class naming convention, and that has
> its own problems.
>[color=green]
> > And namespace promotes bloated class libraries, which affects
> > runtime performance in PHP. When the number of classes is large
> > enough where name collision is an issue, you scripts are probably
> > all crawling.[/color]
>
> Only if you include them all at once. You could have a vast library
> of classes available, but only include the ones you need as you need
> them. Or leave it to the optimiser to cache your classes. For PHP to
> be taken seriously as an enterprise programming language, it must be
> possible to write large systems in it. Namespaces make large systems
> easier to write.
>
> Apart from name collision prevention, namespaces also provide another
> scope for class member access. Classes in the same namespace can
> access each others members, but deny access to classes outside the
> namespace. Without namespaces you must declare such members public
> and hope for the best.
>
> --
>
> __o Alex Farran
> _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
> (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
>[/color]

[Tim Tyler]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Alex Farran <alex@alexfarra n.com> wrote or quoted:
[color=blue]
> For PHP to be taken seriously as an enterprise programming language, it
> must be possible to write large systems in it. Namespaces make large
> systems easier to write.[/color]

Yes - exactly.

Still - PHP has some other problems - as a result of being hastily hacked
together - I can imagine why the developers might want to focus on those ;-)
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.

[Tony Marston]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?


"Alex Farran" <alex@alexfarra n.com> wrote in message
news:m3znbuskin .fsf@alexfarran .com...[color=blue]
> Chung Leong writes:
>[color=green]
> > Personally, I never liked namespace. Its need is understandable in C++,
> > where you link in binary libraries and there's no other workaround for[/color][/color]
name[color=blue][color=green]
> > collisions. With PHP you can just rename the class/function.[/color]
>
> You mean search and replace for every occurance of the duplicate
> class? It's feasible, but not always very practical, and you need to
> know that a name collision exists to begin with. The best practical
> alternative to namespaces is a class naming convention, and that has
> its own problems.[/color]

Naming conventions require intelligence, which sadly is in short supply.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > And namespace promotes bloated class libraries, which affects
> > runtime performance in PHP. When the number of classes is large
> > enough where name collision is an issue, you scripts are probably
> > all crawling.[/color]
>
> Only if you include them all at once. You could have a vast library
> of classes available, but only include the ones you need as you need
> them. Or leave it to the optimiser to cache your classes. For PHP to
> be taken seriously as an enterprise programming language, it must be
> possible to write large systems in it. Namespaces make large systems
> easier to write.[/color]

I have wriitten large systems in several languages which did not have
namespaces, so namespaces cannot be the only solution to that problem
(whatever the "problem" is). If you identified the problem correctly, then
perhaps a solution other than namespaces would present itself.

Tony Marston

http://www.tonymarston.net/

[color=blue]
> Apart from name collision prevention, namespaces also provide another
> scope for class member access. Classes in the same namespace can
> access each others members, but deny access to classes outside the
> namespace. Without namespaces you must declare such members public
> and hope for the best.
>
> --
>
> __o Alex Farran
> _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
> (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
>[/color]

[Alex Farran]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Tony Marston writes:
[color=blue]
> I have wriitten large systems in several languages which did not have
> namespaces, so namespaces cannot be the only solution to that problem
> (whatever the "problem" is). If you identified the problem correctly, then
> perhaps a solution other than namespaces would present itself.[/color]

The problem is name collision, which is going to happen sooner or
later when you have more than one person working on a project,
possibly seperated by time and distance. You solve it by either
making sure each class and function has a unique name, ie using a
naming convention, or by using namespaces so it doesn't matter if they
don't.

If I write a library I have no way of knowing where that library is
going to be used, or which other librarys may be in use at the same
time. I need some way of ensuring that my class and function names
will not conflict with anyone elses.

--

__o Alex Farran
_`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
(_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

[Alex Farran]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Sorry, typos.
[color=blue]
> If I write a library I have no way of knowing where that library is
> going to be used, or which other librarys may be in use at the same[/color]
libraries[color=blue]
> time. I need some way of ensuring that my class and function names
> will not conflict with anyone elses.[/color]
else's.


--

__o Alex Farran
_`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
(_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

[Chung Leong]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Clearly, if a team of developers continually have name collisons, they are
not making any kind of effort to reuse each other's code. I don't see how a
project can suceed when there's such a massive communication problem.

Uzytkownik "Alex Farran" <alex@alexfarra n.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:m3ekt4a17j .fsf@alexfarran .com...[color=blue]
> The problem is name collision, which is going to happen sooner or
> later when you have more than one person working on a project,
> possibly seperated by time and distance. You solve it by either
> making sure each class and function has a unique name, ie using a
> naming convention, or by using namespaces so it doesn't matter if they
> don't.
>
> If I write a library I have no way of knowing where that library is
> going to be used, or which other librarys may be in use at the same
> time. I need some way of ensuring that my class and function names
> will not conflict with anyone elses.
>
> --
>
> __o Alex Farran
> _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
> (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
>[/color]

[Alex Farran]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

Chung Leong writes:
[color=blue]
> Clearly, if a team of developers continually have name collisons, they are
> not making any kind of effort to reuse each other's code. I don't see how a
> project can suceed when there's such a massive communication problem.[/color]

In a small team it is reasonable to assume, even expect, detailed
knowledge of each others code. Namespaces would be a convenience, but
hardly essential. As teams grow the communication overhead reduces
their efficiency (I believe the optimum size is 4). Larger projects
are subdivided into teams. A team member has detailed knowledge of
the code in their project area, and less detailed knowledge of related
areas. No one has detailed knowledge of the whole project, so to
avoid name collisions you must have a system. Namespaces is one, a
naming convention is another.

--

__o Alex Farran
_`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
(_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

[Chung Leong]

Re: Namespaces in PHP5, removed?

A large project doesn't imply one large application though. It's easy
enough--perhaps the wisest thing to do--to divide up a web application into
smaller ones, with the codebases that don't interact.

Uzytkownik "Alex Farran" <alex@alexfarra n.com> napisal w wiadomosci
news:m3r7x38c5e .fsf@alexfarran .com...[color=blue]
> Chung Leong writes:
>[color=green]
> > Clearly, if a team of developers continually have name collisons, they[/color][/color]
are[color=blue][color=green]
> > not making any kind of effort to reuse each other's code. I don't see[/color][/color]
how a[color=blue][color=green]
> > project can suceed when there's such a massive communication problem.[/color]
>
> In a small team it is reasonable to assume, even expect, detailed
> knowledge of each others code. Namespaces would be a convenience, but
> hardly essential. As teams grow the communication overhead reduces
> their efficiency (I believe the optimum size is 4). Larger projects
> are subdivided into teams. A team member has detailed knowledge of
> the code in their project area, and less detailed knowledge of related
> areas. No one has detailed knowledge of the whole project, so to
> avoid name collisions you must have a system. Namespaces is one, a
> naming convention is another.
>
> --
>
> __o Alex Farran
> _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
> (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
>[/color]