Access or Visual Studio?

[idi_amin]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing wrong
with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
those may not matter depending on your needs).

It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two equally
valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm or
another as "not being a serious development environment".

-idi_amin

"SusanV" wrote:[color=blue]
> Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in .NET?
> I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult to
> learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be the
> be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least learn
> by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
> ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
> support are minimal.
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Susan[/color]

[Paul Overway]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
> except for Greg should be using Access,
> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
> its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.[/color]


--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions

http://www.logico-solutions.com

"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:OZ1C1WiOFH A.3356@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."
>
> As to my "implicatio n," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
> projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know
> what I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.
>
> As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
> no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
> opinion speaks for itself.
>
> Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.
>
> --
> Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
> news:%23xOKiKiO FHA.1396@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
>> I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
>> VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers.
>> Based on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone
>> can see you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't
>> know it already.
>>
>> --
>> Paul Overway
>> Logico Solutions
>> http://www.logico-solutions.com
>>
>>
>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>>>> part
>>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
>>>> am in
>>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>>>> been
>>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>>>> VBA
>>>> without any real expertise there.
>>>
>>> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
>>> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
>>> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
>>> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
>>> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
>>> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
>>> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
>>> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
>>> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
>>> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
>>>
>>> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products
>>> for many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT,
>>> Windows 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books
>>> on databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#,
>>> VBScript, VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I
>>> have written ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms
>>> applications in both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts,
>>> Macros, Services, XML Web Services, managed Direct3D applications,
>>> console applications, Access applications, Visual FoxPro applications,
>>> applications that use Modems, serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and
>>> services, UDP clients and services, and, well, darn, I don't have them
>>> all written down somewhere, but let's hope that's sufficient.
>>>
>>> --
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> Kevin Spencer
>>> Microsoft MVP
>>> .Net Developer
>>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>>
>>> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
>>> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>>>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>>>>
>>>>> It uses VBA,
>>>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
>>>>> the
>>>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
>>>>
>>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>>>> part
>>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
>>>> am in
>>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>>>> been
>>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>>>> VBA
>>>> without any real expertise there.
>>>> --
>>>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
>>>> Microsoft Access
>>>> Free Access Downloads
>>>> http://www.datastrat.com
>>>> http://www.mvps.org/access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Juan T. Llibre]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Which "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?

How can there BE an "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?




Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP

http://asp.net.do/foros/

Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
=============== =======

"idi_amin" <idiamin@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:3D51A407-1B5E-418E-999B-1349EA9FC546@mi crosoft.com...[color=blue]
>I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing
>wrong
> with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
> think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
> those may not matter depending on your needs).
>
> It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two
> equally
> valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
> thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm
> or
> another as "not being a serious development environment".
>
> -idi_amin
>
> "SusanV" wrote:[color=green]
>> Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in
>> .NET?
>> I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult
>> to
>> learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be
>> the
>> be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least
>> learn
>> by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
>> ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
>> support are minimal.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents...
>>
>> Susan[/color]
>[/color]

[Jeff Louie]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

This is my answer in working code. If I every get a burst of energy I
will finish
off the label maker.

http://www.geocities.com/jeff_louie/windows_forms.htm

I use both Access and FilemakerPro. I have written corporate database
applications in which I wrote the database file system. I have a RAD
database
application that has been continuously updated and running for 18 years.
I
don't care if you use Access, FileMakerPro or .NET. Each approach has
advantages and disadvantages.

Regards,
Jeff

? Why did the chicken wear a bag over his head when he crossed the road?
A. To hide is pecker ;)

*** Sent via Developersdex http://www.developersdex.com ***

[Brian]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Please don't feed the troll.

"gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
news:eTtZf8hOFH A.4052@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> excuse me ?
> what exactly did I assume ?
> what 'logic' are you referring to ?
> who said I programmed at all ?
>
> I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I[/color]
have[color=blue]
> to assume that you took some offence to my post.
> you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
> how does that definition not apply to what you said ?
>
> and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been[/color]
watching[color=blue]
> your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I[/color]
see[color=blue]
> from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.
>
> self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
> people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because[/color]
it[color=blue]
> doesn't happen to coincide with your own.
>
> HTH ? ya right
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23sg3bZhO FHA.2348@tk2msf tngp13.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
> > You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.
> >
> > I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for[/color]
> free[color=green]
> > on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the[/color]
> interest[color=green]
> > and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you,[/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green]
> > for any other self-appointed hall monitors.
> >
> > --
> > HTH,
> >
> > Kevin Spencer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > .Net Developer
> > What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
> > news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
> > > #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
> > >
> > > "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
> > > usually
> > > with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
> > > 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > > news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
> > >> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> HTH,
> > >>
> > >> Kevin Spencer
> > >> Microsoft MVP
> > >> .Net Developer
> > >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> > >>
> > >> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > >> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...
> > >> >
> > >> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > >> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> > >> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
> > >> >> thread
> > >> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> > >> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
> > >> >> VBA,
> > >> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with[/color][/color][/color]
all[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > the
> > >> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color][/color][/color]
Access[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > has
> > >> > its
> > >> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> > >> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > >> > users/developers
> > >> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
> > > out-of-date
> > >> > (I
> > >> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct[/color][/color][/color]
in[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> >> all
> > >> > that
> > >> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database[/color][/color][/color]
can[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> >> be
> > >> > used
> > >> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
> > > licensing
> > >> > fee
> > >> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app.[/color][/color][/color]
The[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > Jet
> > >> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are[/color][/color]
> based[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> >> upon
> > >> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases,[/color][/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> HTH,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Kevin Spencer
> > >> >> Microsoft MVP
> > >> >> .Net Developer
> > >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> > >> >
> > >> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color][/color]
> trolling[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Brian]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Please don't feed the troll

"Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
news:%23h4boliO FHA.2356@TK2MSF TNGP14.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
> Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't[/color]
denigrate[color=blue]
> Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
> manners....or maybe Haldol.
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
> > Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
> > except for Greg should be using Access,
> > and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> > which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> > capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
> > its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> > users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such[/color][/color]
users/developers.[color=blue]
>
>
> --
> Paul Overway
> Logico Solutions
> http://www.logico-solutions.com
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:OZ1C1WiOFH A.3356@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=green]
> > I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."
> >
> > As to my "implicatio n," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
> > projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know
> > what I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.
> >
> > As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and[/color][/color]
have[color=blue][color=green]
> > no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
> > opinion speaks for itself.
> >
> > Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.
> >
> > --
> > Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,
> >
> > Kevin Spencer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > .Net Developer
> > What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > "Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
> > news:%23xOKiKiO FHA.1396@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=darkred]
> >> I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
> >> VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers.
> >> Based on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone
> >> can see you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't
> >> know it already.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Overway
> >> Logico Solutions
> >> http://www.logico-solutions.com
> >>
> >>
> >> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >> news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
> >>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a[/color][/color][/color]
minor[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> part
> >>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
> >>>> am in
> >>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>>> been
> >>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access[/color][/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> VBA
> >>>> without any real expertise there.
> >>>
> >>> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
> >>> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
> >>> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
> >>> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks.[/color][/color][/color]
We[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good"[/color][/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
> >>> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a[/color][/color][/color]
tool.,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
> >>> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
> >>> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
> >>>
> >>> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products
> >>> for many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT,
> >>> Windows 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2[/color][/color][/color]
books[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> on databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#,
> >>> VBScript, VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I
> >>> have written ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms
> >>> applications in both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts,
> >>> Macros, Services, XML Web Services, managed Direct3D applications,
> >>> console applications, Access applications, Visual FoxPro applications,
> >>> applications that use Modems, serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and
> >>> services, UDP clients and services, and, well, darn, I don't have them
> >>> all written down somewhere, but let's hope that's sufficient.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> HTH,
> >>>
> >>> Kevin Spencer
> >>> Microsoft MVP
> >>> .Net Developer
> >>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>>
> >>> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...
> >>>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> >>>>
> >>>>> It uses VBA,
> >>>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
> >>>>
> >>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a[/color][/color][/color]
minor[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> part
> >>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
> >>>> am in
> >>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>>> been
> >>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access[/color][/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> VBA
> >>>> without any real expertise there.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> >>>> Microsoft Access
> >>>> Free Access Downloads
> >>>> http://www.datastrat.com
> >>>> http://www.mvps.org/access
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Terry Kreft]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Excellent, you can now be discounted as an expert on programming, well done!

--
Terry Kreft
MVP Microsoft Access


"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
<SNIP>[color=blue]
> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
<SNIP>[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

[SusanV]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Agreed on all points, but this whole thread has begun to lose it's appeal as
the trolls attempt to close in for the non-existent kill...

Enjoyed it while it was civil though!

;-)

Susan

"idi_amin" <idiamin@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:3D51A407-1B5E-418E-999B-1349EA9FC546@mi crosoft.com...[color=blue]
>I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing
>wrong
> with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
> think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
> those may not matter depending on your needs).
>
> It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two
> equally
> valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
> thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm
> or
> another as "not being a serious development environment".
>
> -idi_amin
>
> "SusanV" wrote:[color=green]
>> Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in
>> .NET?
>> I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult
>> to
>> learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be
>> the
>> be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least
>> learn
>> by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
>> ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
>> support are minimal.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents...
>>
>> Susan[/color]
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

This is my last contribution to this thread, as it was cross-posted to the
ASP.Net newsgroups, where I participate daily, and my replies are being
wildly misinterpreted by some people that reside in the Access newsgroups
(for those of you there, you have my sympathies).

I am addressing those who are reasonable in that group, in order to clear up
any confusion caused by my attackers:

1. I love Access. For the type of database that it is, it is the best in the
business. I have written many applications that use Access as a back-end.
2. VBA is a language for extending existing applications, not for writing
applications. This is not a qualitative statement. VBA is excellent for what
it was designed for.
3. The Jet engine is fast and efficient, and like Access, for the type of
database that it works with, it is the best in the business.

As for those who have been attacking me, again, I address those reasonable
ones in the Access group: You have my sympathies.

--
ta-ta,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
I suffer fools. Just not gladly.

"Terry Kreft" <terry.kreft@mp s.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c2qdnYVRTt prIs7fSa8jmA@ka roo.co.uk...[color=blue]
> Excellent, you can now be discounted as an expert on programming, well
> done!
>
> --
> Terry Kreft
> MVP Microsoft Access
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> <SNIP>[color=green]
>> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
> <SNIP>[color=green]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[gerry]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

spot on

"Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
news:%23h4boliO FHA.2356@TK2MSF TNGP14.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
> Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't[/color]
denigrate[color=blue]
> Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
> manners....or maybe Haldol.
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
> > Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
> > except for Greg should be using Access,
> > and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> > which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> > capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
> > its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> > users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such[/color][/color]
users/developers.[color=blue]
>
>
> --
> Paul Overway
> Logico Solutions
> http://www.logico-solutions.com
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:OZ1C1WiOFH A.3356@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=green]
> > I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."
> >
> > As to my "implicatio n," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
> > projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know
> > what I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.
> >
> > As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and[/color][/color]
have[color=blue][color=green]
> > no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
> > opinion speaks for itself.
> >
> > Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.
> >
> > --
> > Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,
> >
> > Kevin Spencer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > .Net Developer
> > What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > "Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
> > news:%23xOKiKiO FHA.1396@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=darkred]
> >> I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
> >> VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers.
> >> Based on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone
> >> can see you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't
> >> know it already.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Overway
> >> Logico Solutions
> >> http://www.logico-solutions.com
> >>
> >>
> >> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >> news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...
> >>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a[/color][/color][/color]
minor[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> part
> >>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
> >>>> am in
> >>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>>> been
> >>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access[/color][/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> VBA
> >>>> without any real expertise there.
> >>>
> >>> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
> >>> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
> >>> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
> >>> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks.[/color][/color][/color]
We[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good"[/color][/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
> >>> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a[/color][/color][/color]
tool.,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
> >>> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
> >>> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
> >>>
> >>> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products
> >>> for many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT,
> >>> Windows 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2[/color][/color][/color]
books[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>> on databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#,
> >>> VBScript, VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I
> >>> have written ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms
> >>> applications in both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts,
> >>> Macros, Services, XML Web Services, managed Direct3D applications,
> >>> console applications, Access applications, Visual FoxPro applications,
> >>> applications that use Modems, serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and
> >>> services, UDP clients and services, and, well, darn, I don't have them
> >>> all written down somewhere, but let's hope that's sufficient.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> HTH,
> >>>
> >>> Kevin Spencer
> >>> Microsoft MVP
> >>> .Net Developer
> >>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>>
> >>> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...
> >>>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> >>>>
> >>>>> It uses VBA,
> >>>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
> >>>>
> >>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a[/color][/color][/color]
minor[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> part
> >>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
> >>>> am in
> >>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>>> been
> >>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access[/color][/color][/color]
and[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>>> VBA
> >>>> without any real expertise there.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> >>>> Microsoft Access
> >>>> Free Access Downloads
> >>>> http://www.datastrat.com
> >>>> http://www.mvps.org/access
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[gerry]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

kid ?


"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:uu3TdEiOFH A.1172@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue][color=green]
> > and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
> > watching
> > your posts on these groups for long enough[/color]
>
> Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
> news:eTtZf8hOFH A.4052@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=green]
> > excuse me ?
> > what exactly did I assume ?
> > what 'logic' are you referring to ?
> > who said I programmed at all ?
> >
> > I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I
> > have
> > to assume that you took some offence to my post.
> > you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
> > how does that definition not apply to what you said ?
> >
> > and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
> > watching
> > your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I
> > see
> > from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of[/color][/color]
helping.[color=blue][color=green]
> >
> > self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to[/color][/color]
tell[color=blue][color=green]
> > people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash[/color][/color]
because[color=blue][color=green]
> > it
> > doesn't happen to coincide with your own.
> >
> > HTH ? ya right
> >
> >
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > news:%23sg3bZhO FHA.2348@tk2msf tngp13.phx.gbl. ..[color=darkred]
> >> You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.
> >>
> >> I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for[/color]
> > free[color=darkred]
> >> on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the[/color]
> > interest[color=darkred]
> >> and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you,
> >> or
> >> for any other self-appointed hall monitors.
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>
> >> "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
> >> news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
> >> > #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
> >> >
> >> > "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
> >> > usually
> >> > with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of[/color][/color][/color]
attention.[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> > 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >> > news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
> >> >> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> HTH,
> >> >>
> >> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> >> .Net Developer
> >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in[/color][/color][/color]
message[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> >> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> >> >> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
> >> >> >> thread
> >> >> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> >> >> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It[/color][/color][/color]
uses[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> >> >> VBA,
> >> >> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with
> >> >> >> all
> >> > the
> >> >> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
> >> >> >> Access
> >> > has
> >> >> > its
> >> >> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> >> >> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> >> >> > users/developers
> >> >> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
> >> > out-of-date
> >> >> > (I
> >> >> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct[/color][/color][/color]
in[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> >> >> all
> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database
> >> >> >> can
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> > used
> >> >> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
> >> > licensing
> >> >> > fee
> >> >> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app.
> >> >> >> The
> >> > Jet
> >> >> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are[/color]
> > based[color=darkred]
> >> >> >> upon
> >> >> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases,[/color][/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> >> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> HTH,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> >> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> >> >> .Net Developer
> >> >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color]
> > trolling[color=darkred]
> >> >> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Sean Hederman]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

"Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112716308 .31571.1@dyke.u k.clara.net...
[Snip][color=blue]
> Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
> happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.[/color]

You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
bit premature.
[color=blue]
> Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A
> freestanding binary program it is not.[/color]

Umm, the only "freestandi ng binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At some
point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.
[color=blue]
> In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you
> have to use an obfuscator to deter
> people from nicking your code![/color]

And a disassembler won't work against a "freestandi ng binary program"? .NET
does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty. We
have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.

As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried to
work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.

[Otis Mukinfus]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:34:23 -0400, "SusanV" <svanallen@nosp am-mvps.org> wrote:

It probably won't surprise you to know that their are accomplished developers
like me who find the Access application development features difficult to use
and learn. Perhaps that's because I have done a couple of gigs where the users
in an organization had multiple home grown Access applications they wanted
converted to applications using MS SQL server. Not a pretty sight ;o)

I use Access all the time when I need a readily deployable database that doesn't
have multiple users, but I don't and won't make applications with it.

[color=blue]
>Agreed on all points, but this whole thread has begun to lose it's appeal as
>the trolls attempt to close in for the non-existent kill...
>
>Enjoyed it while it was civil though!
>
>;-)
>
>Susan
>
>"idi_amin" <idiamin@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
>news:3D51A40 7-1B5E-418E-999B-1349EA9FC546@mi crosoft.com...[color=green]
>>I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing
>>wrong
>> with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
>> think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
>> those may not matter depending on your needs).
>>
>> It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two
>> equally
>> valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
>> thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm
>> or
>> another as "not being a serious development environment".
>>
>> -idi_amin
>>
>> "SusanV" wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in
>>> .NET?
>>> I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult
>>> to
>>> learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be
>>> the
>>> be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least
>>> learn
>>> by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
>>> ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
>>> support are minimal.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents...
>>>
>>> Susan[/color]
>>[/color]
>[/color]

Otis Mukinfus

http://www.otismukinfus.com

[Dan Artuso]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Kevin,
We here in the Access newsgroups are a bit of a different breed.
We try to be polite and do not resort to name calling.

--
HTH
-------
Dan Artuso, MVP


"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message news:OZ1C1WiOFH A.3356@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."
>
> As to my "implicatio n," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
> projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know what
> I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.
>
> As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
> no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
> opinion speaks for itself.
>
> Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.
>
> --
> Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
> news:%23xOKiKiO FHA.1396@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
> > I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
> > VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based
> > on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see
> > you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it
> > already.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Overway
> > Logico Solutions
> > http://www.logico-solutions.com
> >
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
> >>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
> >>> part
> >>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
> >>> in
> >>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>> been
> >>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
> >>> VBA
> >>> without any real expertise there.
> >>
> >> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
> >> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
> >> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
> >> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
> >> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
> >> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
> >> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
> >> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
> >> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
> >> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
> >>
> >> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
> >> many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
> >> 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
> >> databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
> >> VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
> >> ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in
> >> both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML
> >> Web Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
> >> applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
> >> serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
> >> services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
> >> but let's hope that's sufficient.
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>
> >> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
> >> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...
> >>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> >>>
> >>>> It uses VBA,
> >>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
> >>>> the
> >>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
> >>>
> >>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> >>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
> >>> part
> >>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
> >>> in
> >>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> >>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> >>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
> >>> been
> >>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
> >>> VBA
> >>> without any real expertise there.
> >>> --
> >>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> >>> Microsoft Access
> >>> Free Access Downloads
> >>> http://www.datastrat.com
> >>> http://www.mvps.org/access
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Brian]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?


"Sean Hederman" <email.jpg@codi ngsanity.blogsp ot.com> wrote in message
news:d30r04$8ki $1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net. ..[color=blue]
> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1112716308 .31571.1@dyke.u k.clara.net...
> [Snip][color=green]
> > Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see[/color][/color]
what[color=blue][color=green]
> > happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.[/color]
>
> You may be right, but it does look like MS is doing a good job of keeping
> the frameworks versioning tight so far, so I'd say that this comment is a
> bit premature.
>[/color]

As is yours, because it hasn't been through enough versions or major
upgrades yet to give real headaches. Microsoft's track record with other
products suggests that major upgrades always break something that used to
work. Of more concern, however, is the situation when the beast is, say,
5-10 years old and developers have to target an unpredictable heterogeneous
population of framework versions and need to make their app work with all of
them. It's a problem that Access developers struggle with (hence the OP's
comments), and I don't expect it to be any different with the dotnet
framework.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe".[/color][/color]
A[color=blue][color=green]
> > freestanding binary program it is not.[/color]
>
> Umm, the only "freestandi ng binary program" on your computer is your BIOS.
> Everything else is just layers put on top of layers. Each layer adds
> overhead, and each layer provides useful services and abstractions. At[/color]
some[color=blue]
> point we may reach a layer too far, but I don't think we're there yet.
>[/color]

You attack a straw man. It was the OP who introduced the term
"freestandi ng" to describe a dotnet app, not me. I was merely pointing out
the error in his interpretation.

In any case, there are lots of genuine binary programs on my computer.
Freestanding they may not be in an absolute sense, but, being real binaries,
they are of a quite different nature to a dotnet app (or, indeed, an Access
app or a VB6 app).
[color=blue][color=green]
> > In fact, it is so far from being a freestanding binary program that you
> > have to use an obfuscator to deter
> > people from nicking your code![/color]
>
> And a disassembler won't work against a "freestandi ng binary program"?[/color]
..NET[color=blue]
> does make it easier to disassemble a program, but that is because the CLR
> needs to be able to easily verify that the code won't do anything nasty.[/color]
We[color=blue]
> have a tradeoff between byte code complexity, security, and performance.
> Moving one of those components requires that at least one of the other two
> shift in a detrimental manner. Given the problems facing us with security
> and viruses, and given the speed of todays hardware, I'm quite happy to
> sacrifice a bit of performance and obfuscation for increased security.
>[/color]

Again you attack a straw man. I was merely illustrating to the OP the
fallacy in his assumptions about dotnet.
[color=blue]
> As to your assertion about people nicking your code, have you ever tried[/color]
to[color=blue]
> work out what's happenning in a large undocumented, uncommented piece of
> source code? Not fun, and certainly not easy.
>[/color]

I've done it lots. Quite enjoy it, actually.