Access or Visual Studio?

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

>> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread[color=blue][color=green]
>> except for Greg should be using Access,[/color]
>
> What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
> allowed to give comments?[/color]

Yeah, that's what I meant.... ;-P

Sheesh!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Cor Ligthert" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%23J$Y%23K fOFHA.1392@TK2M SFTNGP10.phx.gb l...[color=blue]
> Kevin,
>[color=green]
>> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
>> except for Greg should be using Access,[/color]
>
> What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
> allowed to give comments?
>[color=green]
>> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
>
> This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?
>
> I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
> kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
> has some additions)..
>
> This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
> about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who
> probably have forever only used one of both.
>
> Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
> not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".
>
> In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
> the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.
>
> Just my thought,
>
> Cor
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Do you program with that logic?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112716307 .31571.0@dyke.u k.clara.net...[color=blue]
> "Cor Ligthert" <notmyfirstname @planet.nl> wrote in message
> news:%23J$Y%23K fOFHA.1392@TK2M SFTNGP10.phx.gb l...[color=green]
>> Kevin,
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
>> > except for Greg should be using Access,[/color]
>>
>> What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
>> allowed to give comments?
>>[color=darkred]
>> > and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
>> > which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
>> > the
>> > capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
>>
>> This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?
>>
>> I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
>> kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
>> has some additions)..
>>
>> This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
>> about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who[/color]
> probably[color=green]
>> have forever only used one of both.
>>
>> Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I
>> have
>> not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".
>>
>> In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
>> the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.
>>
>> Just my thought,
>>
>> Cor
>>[/color]
>
> Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I
> originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the
> functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted
> to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get
> VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very
> easily
> for use in Access.
>
> Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real
> programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this
> seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to
> program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to
> see,
> filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None
> of
> it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with
> proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days.
>
> If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have
> to
> convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the
> table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool
> for
> the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's
> "programmin g" according to some half-baked definition or other.
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

> In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a[color=blue]
> properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
> application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
> which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
> have
> learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
> because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
> applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
> around.[/color]

Interesting point of view. An Access database application is just that: a
database application. Now, let's have a look at the CLR - tens of thousands
of classes that do nearly everything that can be done with a computer, a
network, a portable device, etc. So, in essence you're saying that it takes
as much skill to build a house as it takes to architect a skyscraper,
perhaps more?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"idi_amin" <idiamin@discus sions.microsoft .com> wrote in message
news:9A9EC5CD-3B20-475A-B4A7-81E895B51B02@mi crosoft.com...[color=blue]
> Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser" , i mean several dozen
> concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
> designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
> conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
> wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
> ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
> ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to
> happen
> in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can
> do
> something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
> Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
> Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too
> much
> about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments,
> code
> reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.
>
> In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
> properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
> application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
> which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
> have
> learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
> because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
> applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
> around.
>
> JMHO,
> idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
> -.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle
> and
> SQL DBAs
>
> "SusanV" wrote:
>[color=green]
>> You wrote:
>> <q>
>> I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
>> multiuser
>> app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
>> electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
>> </q>
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Susan
>>
>> "JiangZemin " <fourpillars@ex ample.com> wrote in message
>> news:uRP$dZeOFH A.3356@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in
>> > Access,
>> > its
>> > difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
>> > build,
>> > its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from
>> > using
>> > JET
>> > to SQL.
>> >
>> > If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
>> > development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But
>> > its
>> > the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
>> > too.
>> > However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
>> > your
>> > application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be
>> > a
>> > lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
>> > doesnt
>> > easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in
>> > a
>> > smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.
>> >
>> > My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments
>> > of
>> > front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
>> > reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing
>> > Access
>> > reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
>> > theres
>> > nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
>> > having
>> > an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.
>> >
>> > I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
>> > multiuser
>> > app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
>> > electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
>> >
>> > HTH,
>> > Premier JiangZemin
>> >
>> > "Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <NoOSpamMgbworl d@comcast.netNo OSpamM>
>> > wrote
>> > in
>> > message news:uZPqlFdOFH A.204@TK2MSFTNG P15.phx.gbl...
>> >> Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
>> >> Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard
>> >> to
>> >> divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
>> >> like
>> >> SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.
>> >>
>> >> If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
>> >> you
>> >> can switch to another database without much pain.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Gregory A. Beamer
>> >> MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
>> >>
>> >> *************** *************** *************** **
>> >> Think outside the box!
>> >> *************** *************** *************** **
>> >> "Jerome" <nospam@nospam. com> wrote in message
>> >> news:eyvBB7bOFH A.2532@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...
>> >>> Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
>> >>> application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would
>> >>> I
>> >>> rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?
>> >>>
>> >>> Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's
>> >>> in
>> >>> Access?`
>> >>>
>> >>> The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right?
>> >>> And
>> >>> that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.
>> >>>
>> >>> I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >[/color]
>>
>>
>>[/color][/color]

[Albert D. Kallal]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <NoOSpamMgbworl d@comcast.netNo OSpamM> wrote in
message news:%[color=blue]
>
> 1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to
> a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
> horribly.[/color]

Actually, in single user mode a JET based file application is faster then
sql
server. I am going to repeat this again just in case you think this was a
type-o. The JET engine is faster then sql server!!! Anywhere from 30 to
200% faster. Remember, sql server has a ton of
overhead, and JET simply scrapes data right off of the disk drive.

Further, you seem to imply that you don't have a choice of what data engine
to use. Remember, ms-access is just a ide. It is a ide like visual studio.
You write code, you build forms, you build class objects. The data engine
you use with ms-access can be JET, or it can be sq server. There are
companies
out there with 1000 simultaneous users of ms-access all hitting the SAME
database. The fact of the matter sql server runs no different if you code
in c++, or use ms-access (they both are using the same oleDB library).
You can scale the applications to 100's of users in all cases when you use
sql
server.

However, the fact remains that JET grabs records faster then sql
server (we taking same hardware....no network involved here). In fact, to
normally grab data from sql server you still (on a local host) have to grab
data through a socket connection, and that alone is going to slow things
down
(further, sql serve has to wrap most things in a transaction, and also use
timestamp
fields to ensure things are ATOMIC).
[color=blue]
> 2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
> is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
> unless Access is merely a data repository.[/color]

Remember, the coding environment in ms-access is the same as VB6. You can
create calls objects in ms-access, and this does help in the re-usability
area. Also, Visual Source Safe also works with ms-access also. So, I am just
point out that ms-access is not a database at all, and all of the
development trappings such as using visual source safe etc does work with
ms-access. If you want to use VSS, and have users check in/ check out
code, the you can do so with ms-access. So, I think for this discussion
it
is impart to distinguish between the
database part, and the IDE that ms-access is.

The database part that you use with ms-access can be the file based JET
engine, or you can use sql server.

Having said the above, as a project does get larger, then coding approaches
used, and things like considering a 3 tried approach to the application does
favor using Visual studio, source code control, and a language like .net, or
even c++. However, to use c++ for writing a average business application
is kind like writing some calculations in assembler to add a few numbers
when you got Excel sitting on your desktop. However, for real-time fluid
calculations
that c, or assembler would be a good choice.

Note that the same arguments can be made
against VB6 in this regards of project size. So, yes, I do agree with you
that project size is most certainly a consideration here. I have to agree
that as a project scales to MANY developers, then the fact of reduced
development speed becomes less of a factor, and things like using a OO
approach in terms of design and modeling code most certainly does
become an advantage in other IDE's. (.net for example!!) However, it also
needs pointing out that the MAJORITY of bussing applications written today
do NOT HUGELY benefit form the large use of a OO approach. However,
more and more business applications do benefit from a general OO approach.
With
..net gaining traction in the marketplace, then the OO approach becomes more
common.
[color=blue]
>
> 3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
> flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.[/color]

This is a interesting aspect. Virtually all ms-access developers now split
their
code/forms away from the data part. You create what is called a mde in
ms-access
(essentially a compiled version of the application). This means to update a
user, you simply send them the new mde, and they copy it over the old one
Since the application has no data..then this works great. In fact,
ms-access developers have enjoyed this x-copy development process for years.
You now hear today .net developers singing the praise of x-copy development.
I
just last week deployed a whole version of my software to 5 different
companies (and, they were in a different city then me!!). To deploy this new
software, all the users had to do was copy the application to their
computers..and away they went (I did wrap the mde in a Inno install..and
send them a .exe to run). However, this band new "singing" of the praise
by .net developers of how you can simply copy the application part to the
users
computer and it runs has been a feature, and part of the landscape for
ms-access developers for a long time. There is no question that many
arm-chair ms-access developers make the mistake of not splitting out the
code/forms/logic from the data, .but as a general rule, ms-access developers
do not keep the data part, and application part as one monolithic
application.
This decision is not the fault of the ms-access design, but that of the
developers using the product. So, while .net users sing the praise of x-copy
development and deployment...we had that great feature for years!
[color=blue]
>
> Access certainly fits a niche. It has a wonderful designer and allows you
> to leverage your work with forms, queries, reports, etc. Much of the work
> can be done without a huge amount of code. But, you pay a price, as you
> lock yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
> rewriting everything.[/color]

The outgrow part you mention has to be defined here. Do you mean the data
part, or the application complex part? The data part is easy, you just move
the back end data part to Oracle, sql-server, or whatever your favorite
data
engine tends to be. The application part is a fair issue you bring up. Once
again, as a developer I do commonly now use, and built class objects in
ms-access. However, you can't use ms-access to build the middle tier in a 3
tiered applications (apparently, there is a com add in for ms-access..but I
don't think it is appropriate use here). And, ms-access does support xml,
and
also has the soap tool kit add-in. With the soap kit, ms-access can now
easily consume ..net services.

I have to say that the MAJORITY of small business applications written don't
need more
then a few developers. However, if the product you are crating is to be
widely distributed, and you want a reduction in dependencies, and you expect
to have a large development team, then ms-access is a weak choice. However,
it is VERY difficult to outgrow ms-access in terms of a large database
(since
you just move the data to a server based product).

Once again, I am not saying ms-access should be use for all projects. And,to
be fair, ms-access works well in a two tiered approach, but not much well in
a 3 tiered approach. However, again, if you only got 30 -200 users, then
a two tiered approach (ms-access/sql server back end), then sql server and
ms-access will hardly break out a sweat. For larger user counts, and
applications with larger amounts of business logic, then better environments
most certainly do exist then ms-access. The only question that remains is
when to choose what tools for the right job. As always, this is about the
right horse for the right course...


--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pleaseNOOSpamKa llal@msn.com

http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal

[gerry]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"




"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...[color=green]
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=darkred]
> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all[/color][/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access[/color][/color][/color]
has[color=blue][color=green]
> > its[color=darkred]
> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office[/color]
> > users/developers[color=darkred]
> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> >>
> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat[/color][/color][/color]
out-of-date[color=blue][color=green]
> > (I[color=darkred]
> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all[/color]
> > that[color=darkred]
> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be[/color]
> > used[color=darkred]
> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no[/color][/color][/color]
licensing[color=blue][color=green]
> > fee[color=darkred]
> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The[/color][/color][/color]
Jet[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
> >> upon
> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.[/color]
> >
> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Brian]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Yep, spot on.

"gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
>
> "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,[/color]
usually[color=blue]
> with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
> 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=green]
> > "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
> >
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
> >
> > --
> > HTH,
> >
> > Kevin Spencer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > .Net Developer
> > What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> > >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this[/color][/color][/color]
thread[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> > >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses[/color][/color][/color]
VBA,[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all[/color][/color]
> the[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access[/color][/color]
> has[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > its
> > >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> > >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > > users/developers
> > >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> > >>
> > >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat[/color][/color]
> out-of-date[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > (I
> > >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in[/color][/color][/color]
all[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > that
> > >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can[/color][/color][/color]
be[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > used
> > >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no[/color][/color]
> licensing[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > fee
> > >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The[/color][/color]
> Jet[color=green][color=darkred]
> > >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
> > >> upon
> > >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
> > >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> HTH,
> > >>
> > >> Kevin Spencer
> > >> Microsoft MVP
> > >> .Net Developer
> > >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> > >
> > > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color][/color][/color]
trolling[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> > >
> > >[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
>
> "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
> usually
> with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
> 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
>> >> thread
>> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
>> >> VBA,
>> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all[/color][/color]
> the[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access[/color][/color]
> has[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > its
>> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
>> > users/developers
>> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>> >>
>> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat[/color][/color]
> out-of-date[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > (I
>> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
>> >> all
>> > that
>> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
>> >> be
>> > used
>> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no[/color][/color]
> licensing[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > fee
>> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The[/color][/color]
> Jet[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
>> >> upon
>> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> HTH,
>> >>
>> >> Kevin Spencer
>> >> Microsoft MVP
>> >> .Net Developer
>> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> >
>> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
>> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>> >
>> >[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

Coming from you, Brian, I'll take that as a compliment. Please don't
disappoint me by saying anything nice or helpful.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1112728900 .36197.0@demete r.uk.clara.net. ..[color=blue]
> Yep, spot on.
>
> "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
> news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
>>
>> "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,[/color]
> usually[color=green]
>> with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
>> 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>> > "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>> >
>> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>> >
>> > --
>> > HTH,
>> >
>> > Kevin Spencer
>> > Microsoft MVP
>> > .Net Developer
>> > What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> >
>> > "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...
>> > >
>> > > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> > > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>> > >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this[/color][/color]
> thread[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > >> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> > >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses[/color][/color]
> VBA,[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all[/color]
>> the[color=darkred]
>> > >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access[/color]
>> has[color=darkred]
>> > > its
>> > >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> > >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
>> > > users/developers
>> > >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>> > >>
>> > >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat[/color]
>> out-of-date[color=darkred]
>> > > (I
>> > >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in[/color][/color]
> all[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > > that
>> > >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can[/color][/color]
> be[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > > used
>> > >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no[/color]
>> licensing[color=darkred]
>> > > fee
>> > >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The[/color]
>> Jet[color=darkred]
>> > >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are
>> > >> based
>> > >> upon
>> > >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> > >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> HTH,
>> > >>
>> > >> Kevin Spencer
>> > >> Microsoft MVP
>> > >> .Net Developer
>> > >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> > >
>> > > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color][/color]
> trolling[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Arvin Meyer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

"Juan T. Llibre" <nomailreplies@ nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%23YDGGvfO FHA.2956@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
>
> That's no excuse for cross-posting.[/color]

Hi Juan,

I seriously considered removing the .NET groups, but that would have
eliminated the audience that I was answering. For the same reason, I see
that you didn't eliminate them either. :-p <g>

After all, this is a great forum for the discussion of ideas and the
elimination of misinterpreted notions.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads

http://www.datastrat.com

http://www.mvps.org/access

[Arvin Meyer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
[color=blue]
> It uses VBA,
> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads

http://www.datastrat.com

http://www.mvps.org/access

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each[color=blue]
> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
> part
> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
> in
> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
> without any real expertise there.[/color]

A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the ASP.Net
newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We talk about
capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or "bad." Nobody
here has any axe to grind against Access, which, incidentally, I've been
using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool., As such, it has properties,
capabilities, and limitations, just as any other tool. Even Microsoft
doesn't recommend using Access for Internet applications, and if anyone ever
loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on databases
and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript, VBA, VB6,
VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written ASP
applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in both
native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML Web
Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and services,
and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere, but let's
hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>[color=green]
>> It uses VBA,
>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
>
> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
> part
> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
> in
> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
> without any real expertise there.
> --
> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
> Microsoft Access
> Free Access Downloads
> http://www.datastrat.com
> http://www.mvps.org/access
>
>[/color]

[gerry]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right



"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:%23sg3bZhO FHA.2348@tk2msf tngp13.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
> You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.
>
> I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for[/color]
free[color=blue]
> on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the[/color]
interest[color=blue]
> and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
> for any other self-appointed hall monitors.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
> news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=green]
> > #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
> >
> > "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
> > usually
> > with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
> > 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> > news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
> >> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
> >>
> >> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >>
> >> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> >> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> >> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
> >> >> thread
> >> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> >> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
> >> >> VBA,
> >> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all[/color]
> > the[color=darkred]
> >> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access[/color]
> > has[color=darkred]
> >> > its
> >> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> >> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> >> > users/developers
> >> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> >> >>
> >> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat[/color]
> > out-of-date[color=darkred]
> >> > (I
> >> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
> >> >> all
> >> > that
> >> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
> >> >> be
> >> > used
> >> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no[/color]
> > licensing[color=darkred]
> >> > fee
> >> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The[/color]
> > Jet[color=darkred]
> >> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are[/color][/color][/color]
based[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> >> upon
> >> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
> >> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> HTH,
> >> >>
> >> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> >> .Net Developer
> >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >> >
> >> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color][/color][/color]
trolling[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>[/color]
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

> and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been[color=blue]
> watching
> your posts on these groups for long enough[/color]

Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
news:eTtZf8hOFH A.4052@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> excuse me ?
> what exactly did I assume ?
> what 'logic' are you referring to ?
> who said I programmed at all ?
>
> I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I
> have
> to assume that you took some offence to my post.
> you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
> how does that definition not apply to what you said ?
>
> and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
> watching
> your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I
> see
> from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.
>
> self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
> people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because
> it
> doesn't happen to coincide with your own.
>
> HTH ? ya right
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:%23sg3bZhO FHA.2348@tk2msf tngp13.phx.gbl. ..[color=green]
>> You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.
>>
>> I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for[/color]
> free[color=green]
>> on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the[/color]
> interest[color=green]
>> and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you,
>> or
>> for any other self-appointed hall monitors.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>> "gerry" <germ@hotmail.c om> wrote in message
>> news:unt8pGhOFH A.3376@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>> > #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
>> >
>> > "deliberate ly provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
>> > usually
>> > with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
>> > 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> > news:e4tawvfOFH A.3076@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...
>> >> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> HTH,
>> >>
>> >> Kevin Spencer
>> >> Microsoft MVP
>> >> .Net Developer
>> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> >>
>> >> "Brian" <bcap@IHATESPAM clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:1112713382 .8870.0@doris.u k.clara.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>> >> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
>> >> >> thread
>> >> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> >> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
>> >> >> VBA,
>> >> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with
>> >> >> all
>> > the
>> >> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
>> >> >> Access
>> > has
>> >> > its
>> >> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> >> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
>> >> > users/developers
>> >> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
>> > out-of-date
>> >> > (I
>> >> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
>> >> >> all
>> >> > that
>> >> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> be
>> >> > used
>> >> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
>> > licensing
>> >> > fee
>> >> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app.
>> >> >> The
>> > Jet
>> >> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are[/color][/color]
> based[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >> >> upon
>> >> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> >> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> HTH,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Kevin Spencer
>> >> >> Microsoft MVP
>> >> >> .Net Developer
>> >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> >> >
>> >> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above[/color][/color]
> trolling[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Paul Overway]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in VBA
is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based on
your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see you're
a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions

http://www.logico-solutions.com

"Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...[color=blue][color=green]
>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>> part
>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
>> in
>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>> been
>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>> VBA
>> without any real expertise there.[/color]
>
> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
>
> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
> many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
> 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
> databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
> VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
> ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in both
> native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML Web
> Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
> applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
> serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
> services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
> but let's hope that's sufficient.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...[color=green]
>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>>[color=darkred]
>>> It uses VBA,
>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.[/color]
>>
>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>> part
>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
>> in
>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>> been
>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>> VBA
>> without any real expertise there.
>> --
>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
>> Microsoft Access
>> Free Access Downloads
>> http://www.datastrat.com
>> http://www.mvps.org/access
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

[Kevin Spencer]

Re: Access or Visual Studio?

I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implicatio n," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know what
I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Paul Overway" <paul@I.hate.sp am.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
news:%23xOKiKiO FHA.1396@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..[color=blue]
> I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
> VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based
> on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see
> you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it
> already.
>
> --
> Paul Overway
> Logico Solutions
> http://www.logico-solutions.com
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
> news:uygxC2hOFH A.1096@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>>> part
>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
>>> in
>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>>> been
>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>>> VBA
>>> without any real expertise there.[/color]
>>
>> A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
>> haven't seen any "denigratio n" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
>> "denigratio n" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
>> ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
>> talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
>> "bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
>> incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
>> As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
>> other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
>> applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.
>>
>> As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
>> many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
>> 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
>> databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
>> VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
>> ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in
>> both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML
>> Web Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
>> applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
>> serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
>> services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
>> but let's hope that's sufficient.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>> "Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
>> news:O4VgMlhOFH A.3668@TK2MSFTN GP14.phx.gbl...[color=darkred]
>>> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@DIESPAMM ERSDIEtakempis. com> wrote in message
>>> news:%23evxxxeO FHA.3856@TK2MSF TNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
>>>
>>>> It uses VBA,
>>>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
>>>> the
>>>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
>>>
>>> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
>>> application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
>>> part
>>> of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
>>> in
>>> the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
>>> arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
>>> platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
>>> been
>>> pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
>>> VBA
>>> without any real expertise there.
>>> --
>>> Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
>>> Microsoft Access
>>> Free Access Downloads
>>> http://www.datastrat.com
>>> http://www.mvps.org/access
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]