Re: VB or C#
Hi Cor,
While Clinton's remarks are unkind, he is correct about the usefulness of
learning C# if one is going to be a web application developer. Clinton is a
self-described "curmudgeon ," but he is truly often helpful, and I know that
he is motivated by kind intentions.
Your response which I (and probably Clinton, although I can't speak for him)
take issue with is this:
Now, I have some trouble parsing your messages, but I get better at it with
practice! If I understand you correctly, this statement is incorrect.
ASP.Net is a web application technology, used about 95% of the time to
develop ASP.Net web pages, which generate HTML and have a client-side and a
server-side aspect to them. In fact, there is little that one can do on the
client side without JavaScript, and the ASP.Net programming model makes
liberal use of it, particularly for event-handling, but also for other
purposes. In a web application of any size and/or complexity, it is vital
for the developer to be familiar with not only the server-side programming
language used, but all of the client-side technologies as well, including
(but not limited to) HTTP, HTML, CSS, and yes, JavaScript. Only IE supports
client-side VBScript.
Clinton is also correct in pointing out that C# and JavaScript use the same
syntax, almost entirely. And he is correct in that if you learn C, C++, C#,
Java, or JavaScript, you have learned the syntax to all of these. As a side
note, you have also learned the syntax for DirectX High-Level Shader
Language (HLSL). So, that makes 6 languages for the price of one. And that
is a compelling reason, if one is learning this stuff for the first time, to
begin with C#.
Now, you are correct in that most ASP.Net developers currently came from an
ASP background, and are familiar with VBScript already, which makes it
easier for them to transition to VB.Net than C#. For these people, VB.Net is
often useful. But the OP is not a seasoned ASP developer. He is just
starting out. So, I have to agree with Clinton that, under the
circumstances, taking a good look at learning C# would make sense.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Software Composer
A watched clock never boils.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
news:eVnz%230m3 GHA.4588@TK2MSF TNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
Hi Cor,
While Clinton's remarks are unkind, he is correct about the usefulness of
learning C# if one is going to be a web application developer. Clinton is a
self-described "curmudgeon ," but he is truly often helpful, and I know that
he is motivated by kind intentions.
Your response which I (and probably Clinton, although I can't speak for him)
take issue with is this:
>Beside that do I find it really a pity that you are using C# as
>JavaScript. JavaScript is seldom OOP used, this can as well with C#,
>however with that you are in my idea misusing the language.
>JavaScript. JavaScript is seldom OOP used, this can as well with C#,
>however with that you are in my idea misusing the language.
practice! If I understand you correctly, this statement is incorrect.
ASP.Net is a web application technology, used about 95% of the time to
develop ASP.Net web pages, which generate HTML and have a client-side and a
server-side aspect to them. In fact, there is little that one can do on the
client side without JavaScript, and the ASP.Net programming model makes
liberal use of it, particularly for event-handling, but also for other
purposes. In a web application of any size and/or complexity, it is vital
for the developer to be familiar with not only the server-side programming
language used, but all of the client-side technologies as well, including
(but not limited to) HTTP, HTML, CSS, and yes, JavaScript. Only IE supports
client-side VBScript.
Clinton is also correct in pointing out that C# and JavaScript use the same
syntax, almost entirely. And he is correct in that if you learn C, C++, C#,
Java, or JavaScript, you have learned the syntax to all of these. As a side
note, you have also learned the syntax for DirectX High-Level Shader
Language (HLSL). So, that makes 6 languages for the price of one. And that
is a compelling reason, if one is learning this stuff for the first time, to
begin with C#.
Now, you are correct in that most ASP.Net developers currently came from an
ASP background, and are familiar with VBScript already, which makes it
easier for them to transition to VB.Net than C#. For these people, VB.Net is
often useful. But the OP is not a seasoned ASP developer. He is just
starting out. So, I have to agree with Clinton that, under the
circumstances, taking a good look at learning C# would make sense.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Software Composer
A watched clock never boils.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
news:eVnz%230m3 GHA.4588@TK2MSF TNGP04.phx.gbl. ..
Clinton,
>
>
I am smiling now; I am glad that you think I am so young, so I leave you
in that delusion
>
You write about "pragmatism " as an English word and state a complete
message on it, maybe should you investigate something first before you
write it. The same is in fact for almost all what you wrote beside the
things about yourself, those I cannot check.
>
It is not only that I can speak with people in English, I can speak more
languages. That writing a language is much more difficult than speaking or
reading, is something people who are only able to speak the language they
learned at their mothers tit, is something those people don't understand.
They are often glad when they can speak 10 words in another language.
>
But your message was funny to read and I am glad about your compliment
that my behaviour makes that you have the idea that I am so young.
>
That your tone from the message is in a way you never will see me done, is
something I forgive you. If that is the only language you learned than you
cannot help that.
>
:-)
>
Cor
>
>
>
>
"clintonG" <csgallagher@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com schreef in
bericht news:e3oCwTm3GH A.4748@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...
>
>
>
>
I am smiling now; I am glad that you think I am so young, so I leave you
in that delusion
>
You write about "pragmatism " as an English word and state a complete
message on it, maybe should you investigate something first before you
write it. The same is in fact for almost all what you wrote beside the
things about yourself, those I cannot check.
>
It is not only that I can speak with people in English, I can speak more
languages. That writing a language is much more difficult than speaking or
reading, is something people who are only able to speak the language they
learned at their mothers tit, is something those people don't understand.
They are often glad when they can speak 10 words in another language.
>
But your message was funny to read and I am glad about your compliment
that my behaviour makes that you have the idea that I am so young.
>
That your tone from the message is in a way you never will see me done, is
something I forgive you. If that is the only language you learned than you
cannot help that.
>
:-)
>
Cor
>
>
>
>
"clintonG" <csgallagher@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com schreef in
bericht news:e3oCwTm3GH A.4748@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...
>Cor, Cor, Cor, you ignorant slut (that is a joke from an old TV show)
>>
>First of all, I have been writing code since the mid 1980s using BASIC,
>Fortran, and C on DOS and Unix machines. I never really did well at it --
>very poorly in fact -- and I didn't take coding seriously until I started
>getting serious about web development.
>>
>After about 10 years of administration experience and the explosion of
>growth of the Amiga, Mac, DOS/Windows and Unix OS systems I was
>supporting I was no longer able to cope. Since I was working as an
>architect I decided to focus on the Windows platform because we used DOS
>and Windows almost exclusively because CAD was the fundamental
>application used by the AEC-CAFM disciplines. The Mac was used a lot in
>those days too but most CAD vendors dumped the Mac because it was a dog
>compared to the PC. Those were the days when a 10 MB hard drive cost more
>than $3,000 US and a box of 3.5" floppies was more than $80 US. You were
>probably still wearing diapers :-)
>>
>So when the web came around I started getting serious about coding. Since
>I was a "Microsoft guy" I naturally used ASP/VBScript, JavaScript and of
>course CSS which I note has syntax also derived from the legacy syntax of
>the C programming language. I wrote all HTML and code by hand because I
>had already learned the pitfalls of push-button monkey coding and how it
>cripples a would-be web developer. I developed solutions for both
>intranet and internet websites.
>>
>When the .NET Framework was released I started using VB.NET but then I
>had what is called an epiphany (that word is in the dictionary). In case
>you don't understand big words it means I pulled my head out of my @ss,
>took a breath of fresh air and realized what a lame mistake I had made
>because half of web development is done on the server and the other half
>is done on the client and the half done on the client requires the use of
>JavaScript which has been derived from C.
>>
>So I have to tell you Cor I enjoy arguing with you now and then but I
>have to ask you to pull your head out of your @ss because you just don't
>know what you're talking about when you criticize me. Furthermore, you
>seem to have misunderstood what I said. I know you are learning English
>and words and phrases may not make sense sometimes so just remember, I
>still love you even though you have your head stuck up your @ss but it
>really is much nicer out here where there is fresh air. The fresh air
>helps people think clearly and understand why it is wiser and more
>efficient to do web development using C#. So I'll repeat it again...
>>
>Half of web development is done on the server using C# and the other half
>is done on the client using JavaScript so why use different languages
>with different syntax?
>>
>The English word that will help you understand is the word "pragmatism ."
>Although it has several meanings, when you look it up in a dictionary and
>cross reference how the word is used by those speaking and writing the
>contemporary form of the English language you will understand why it is
>pragmatic to learn three languages for the price of one. After all, isn't
>that why you are trying to learn English? So you can speak and write with
>others in many other nations?
>>
>Just think how small your world would be if you could only speak and
>write in Dutch (which I'm assuming is your native language). The same
>pragmatic principle works with programming languages. It is pragmatic to
>learn languages that derive from the legacy of the C programming language
>because doing so allows a developer to speak and write to many platforms.
>>
>Have a nice day over there...
>>
><%= Clinton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
>news:OESjI%23f 3GHA.2228@TK2MS FTNGP03.phx.gbl ...
>>
>>
>>
>First of all, I have been writing code since the mid 1980s using BASIC,
>Fortran, and C on DOS and Unix machines. I never really did well at it --
>very poorly in fact -- and I didn't take coding seriously until I started
>getting serious about web development.
>>
>After about 10 years of administration experience and the explosion of
>growth of the Amiga, Mac, DOS/Windows and Unix OS systems I was
>supporting I was no longer able to cope. Since I was working as an
>architect I decided to focus on the Windows platform because we used DOS
>and Windows almost exclusively because CAD was the fundamental
>application used by the AEC-CAFM disciplines. The Mac was used a lot in
>those days too but most CAD vendors dumped the Mac because it was a dog
>compared to the PC. Those were the days when a 10 MB hard drive cost more
>than $3,000 US and a box of 3.5" floppies was more than $80 US. You were
>probably still wearing diapers :-)
>>
>So when the web came around I started getting serious about coding. Since
>I was a "Microsoft guy" I naturally used ASP/VBScript, JavaScript and of
>course CSS which I note has syntax also derived from the legacy syntax of
>the C programming language. I wrote all HTML and code by hand because I
>had already learned the pitfalls of push-button monkey coding and how it
>cripples a would-be web developer. I developed solutions for both
>intranet and internet websites.
>>
>When the .NET Framework was released I started using VB.NET but then I
>had what is called an epiphany (that word is in the dictionary). In case
>you don't understand big words it means I pulled my head out of my @ss,
>took a breath of fresh air and realized what a lame mistake I had made
>because half of web development is done on the server and the other half
>is done on the client and the half done on the client requires the use of
>JavaScript which has been derived from C.
>>
>So I have to tell you Cor I enjoy arguing with you now and then but I
>have to ask you to pull your head out of your @ss because you just don't
>know what you're talking about when you criticize me. Furthermore, you
>seem to have misunderstood what I said. I know you are learning English
>and words and phrases may not make sense sometimes so just remember, I
>still love you even though you have your head stuck up your @ss but it
>really is much nicer out here where there is fresh air. The fresh air
>helps people think clearly and understand why it is wiser and more
>efficient to do web development using C#. So I'll repeat it again...
>>
>Half of web development is done on the server using C# and the other half
>is done on the client using JavaScript so why use different languages
>with different syntax?
>>
>The English word that will help you understand is the word "pragmatism ."
>Although it has several meanings, when you look it up in a dictionary and
>cross reference how the word is used by those speaking and writing the
>contemporary form of the English language you will understand why it is
>pragmatic to learn three languages for the price of one. After all, isn't
>that why you are trying to learn English? So you can speak and write with
>others in many other nations?
>>
>Just think how small your world would be if you could only speak and
>write in Dutch (which I'm assuming is your native language). The same
>pragmatic principle works with programming languages. It is pragmatic to
>learn languages that derive from the legacy of the C programming language
>because doing so allows a developer to speak and write to many platforms.
>>
>Have a nice day over there...
>>
><%= Clinton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstname @planet.nlwrote in message
>news:OESjI%23f 3GHA.2228@TK2MS FTNGP03.phx.gbl ...
>>clinton,
>>>
>>You probably never have created as Webdevelopper an ASP page, which is
>>always loaded with VBS.
>>>
>>And because that this are Microsoft newsgroups and not Linux newsgroups
>>it the change that somebody who ask here a question is as webdeveloper
>>more familiar with ASP.
>>>
>>Beside that do I find it really a pity that you are using C# as
>>JavaScript. JavaScript is seldom OOP used, this can as well with C#,
>>however with that you are in my idea misusing the language.
>>>
>>(Almost everything you can do with C#, you can do with VB.Net by the way
>>especially when it is about webdevelopment, the last weeks are there
>>more enthusiast messages in the vb newsgroup from people using VB.Net
>>while using before other languages as C++ about the possibilities and
>>performance results with that language).
>>>
>>Just as answer on your reply. Beside the in my idea better VB.Net IDE,
>>I don't have any preference in both languages.
>>>
>>Cor
>>>
>>>
>>"clintonG" <csgallagher@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com schreef in
>>bericht news:%23Fy2yVc3 GHA.1464@TK2MSF TNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>>If you're going to be a web developer learning C# is the better choice
>>>because the syntax is exactly the same as JavaScript and the grammar is
>>>similar. The same is true when comparing C# and the Java language.
>>>There's no such thing as a competent web developer that does not know
>>>how to code using JavaScript and there's nobody who can honestly say
>>>JavaScript is not required to master web development.
>>>>
>>>You can actually learn three languages for the price of one:
>>>JavaScript , C# and Java. Then you apply the language to the .NET
>>>Framework. Its true that the framework makes using different
>>>languages -- mostly equal to one another -- but the white lie from
>>>those that support VB is the fact that what they say is only partially
>>>true on the server because language features leap frog one another all
>>>the time. So at any given point in time VB may support more features
>>>and be optimized at a greater level than C# or C# may have an edge for
>>>some time and VB will lag behind -- BUT -- those concerns are only
>>>relevant for server-side code. Web developers also have to master
>>>cleint-side code and that requires learning JavaScript. In fact the
>>>entire web has for all intents and purposes become all about
>>>client-side JavaScript at this point in time.
>>>>
>>>The people who support VB or those that babble about the languages
>>>being the same keep forgetting to mention these facts.
>>>>
>>>Learn JavaScript and C#.
>>>>
>>><%= Clinton Gallagher
>>> NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee. com
>>> URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
>>> MAP 43°2'17"N 88°2'37"W : 43°2'17"N 88°2'37"W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"esha" <esha@newsgroup s.comwrote in message
>>>news:%231tJi ts1GHA.1292@TK2 MSFTNGP03.phx.g bl...
>>>>I'm going to learn one of Framework based languages. I have a friend
>>>>who knows VB 2005 and he could help me with lessons. But I know from
>>>>other friends that C# is more popular and has higher demand.
>>>>My question - what to learn if I know in both VB and C# almost
>>>>nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>Esha
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>You probably never have created as Webdevelopper an ASP page, which is
>>always loaded with VBS.
>>>
>>And because that this are Microsoft newsgroups and not Linux newsgroups
>>it the change that somebody who ask here a question is as webdeveloper
>>more familiar with ASP.
>>>
>>Beside that do I find it really a pity that you are using C# as
>>JavaScript. JavaScript is seldom OOP used, this can as well with C#,
>>however with that you are in my idea misusing the language.
>>>
>>(Almost everything you can do with C#, you can do with VB.Net by the way
>>especially when it is about webdevelopment, the last weeks are there
>>more enthusiast messages in the vb newsgroup from people using VB.Net
>>while using before other languages as C++ about the possibilities and
>>performance results with that language).
>>>
>>Just as answer on your reply. Beside the in my idea better VB.Net IDE,
>>I don't have any preference in both languages.
>>>
>>Cor
>>>
>>>
>>"clintonG" <csgallagher@RE MOVETHISTEXTmet romilwaukee.com schreef in
>>bericht news:%23Fy2yVc3 GHA.1464@TK2MSF TNGP03.phx.gbl. ..
>>>If you're going to be a web developer learning C# is the better choice
>>>because the syntax is exactly the same as JavaScript and the grammar is
>>>similar. The same is true when comparing C# and the Java language.
>>>There's no such thing as a competent web developer that does not know
>>>how to code using JavaScript and there's nobody who can honestly say
>>>JavaScript is not required to master web development.
>>>>
>>>You can actually learn three languages for the price of one:
>>>JavaScript , C# and Java. Then you apply the language to the .NET
>>>Framework. Its true that the framework makes using different
>>>languages -- mostly equal to one another -- but the white lie from
>>>those that support VB is the fact that what they say is only partially
>>>true on the server because language features leap frog one another all
>>>the time. So at any given point in time VB may support more features
>>>and be optimized at a greater level than C# or C# may have an edge for
>>>some time and VB will lag behind -- BUT -- those concerns are only
>>>relevant for server-side code. Web developers also have to master
>>>cleint-side code and that requires learning JavaScript. In fact the
>>>entire web has for all intents and purposes become all about
>>>client-side JavaScript at this point in time.
>>>>
>>>The people who support VB or those that babble about the languages
>>>being the same keep forgetting to mention these facts.
>>>>
>>>Learn JavaScript and C#.
>>>>
>>><%= Clinton Gallagher
>>> NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee. com
>>> URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
>>> MAP 43°2'17"N 88°2'37"W : 43°2'17"N 88°2'37"W
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>"esha" <esha@newsgroup s.comwrote in message
>>>news:%231tJi ts1GHA.1292@TK2 MSFTNGP03.phx.g bl...
>>>>I'm going to learn one of Framework based languages. I have a friend
>>>>who knows VB 2005 and he could help me with lessons. But I know from
>>>>other friends that C# is more popular and has higher demand.
>>>>My question - what to learn if I know in both VB and C# almost
>>>>nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>Thank you
>>>>>
>>>>Esha
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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