some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

[Bruce One]

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two big problems:

1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to memory.
If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then you have to query
this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM could make it easier (in a
strongly type manner) to call a dynamic query to directly update/delete
records.

2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return datatype of a
query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or reorder the elements in this
collection...th is restrict a lot the way you can work, specially if you are
iterating in a loop and have to make changes to the same table you are
iterating...

What are your opinions about it ?

[Jimmy]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Sure you can do all of that with HQL in NHibernate.

J.

Bruce One wrote:

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two big problems:
>
1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to memory.
If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then you have to query
this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM could make it easier (in a
strongly type manner) to call a dynamic query to directly update/delete
records.
>
2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return datatype of a
query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or reorder the elements in this
collection...th is restrict a lot the way you can work, specially if you are
iterating in a loop and have to make changes to the same table you are
iterating...
>
What are your opinions about it ?

[Bruce One]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

I may have misexposed what I really meant.
I meant all ORM do HAVE these 2 problems below...
Hibernate (which I have already studied) works exaclty this ways, that is,
it has to bring to memory all records it needs to update/delete, and, since
it works with collections, you just cant update/delete any member of this
collection in such a way the collection gets "lost"....

"Jimmy" wrote:

Sure you can do all of that with HQL in NHibernate.
>
J.
>
Bruce One wrote:

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two big problems:

1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to memory.
If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then you have to query
this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM could make it easier (in a
strongly type manner) to call a dynamic query to directly update/delete
records.

2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return datatype of a
query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or reorder the elements in this
collection...th is restrict a lot the way you can work, specially if you are
iterating in a loop and have to make changes to the same table you are
iterating...

What are your opinions about it ?

>
>

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

I may have misexposed what I really meant.
I meant all ORM do HAVE these 2 problems below...
Hibernate (which I have already studied) works exaclty this ways, that is,
it has to bring to memory all records it needs to update/delete, and, since
it works with collections, you just cant update/delete any member of this
collection in such a way the collection gets "lost"....

No, Hibernate (at least the Java version) does *not* have to fetch
records in order to update/delete them.

See

http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/v3/reference/en/html/batch.html#batch

-direct

aka http://tinyurl.com/4kpug

and scroll down to "DML-style operations".

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Bruce One]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Well the example you linked to me works exaclty the way I put there...look at
a piece of the code presented in the page you forward to me...

............... ...
............... ..
// TAKE A LOOK AT THE getNamedQuery method. IT RETURNS ALL RECORDS THAT WILL
BE UPDATED....

ScrollableResul ts customers = session.getName dQuery("GetCust omers")
.scroll(ScrollM ode.FORWARD_ONL Y);
while ( customers.next( ) ) {
Customer customer = (Customer) customers.get(0 );
customer.update Stuff(...);
session.update( customer);
}

tx.commit();
session.close() ;




"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" wrote:

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

I may have misexposed what I really meant.
I meant all ORM do HAVE these 2 problems below...
Hibernate (which I have already studied) works exaclty this ways, that is,
it has to bring to memory all records it needs to update/delete, and, since
it works with collections, you just cant update/delete any member of this
collection in such a way the collection gets "lost"....

>
No, Hibernate (at least the Java version) does *not* have to fetch
records in order to update/delete them.
>
See

http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/v3/reference/en/html/batch.html#batch

-direct
>
aka http://tinyurl.com/4kpug
>
and scroll down to "DML-style operations".
>
--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
>

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

Well the example you linked to me works exaclty the way I put there...look at
a piece of the code presented in the page you forward to me...
>
............... ..
............... .
// TAKE A LOOK AT THE getNamedQuery method. IT RETURNS ALL RECORDS THAT WILL
BE UPDATED....
>
ScrollableResul ts customers = session.getName dQuery("GetCust omers")
.scroll(ScrollM ode.FORWARD_ONL Y);
while ( customers.next( ) ) {
Customer customer = (Customer) customers.get(0 );
customer.update Stuff(...);
session.update( customer);
}
>
tx.commit();
session.close() ;

Please read my post more carefully. You didn't scroll down to the "DML-
style operations" section as I suggested.

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One wrote:

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two big
problems:
>
1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to
memory. If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then you
have to query this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM could
make it easier (in a strongly type manner) to call a dynamic query to
directly update/delete records.

Not all O/R mappers force that on you. Some, like LLBLGen Pro (which
I'm the lead developer of), offer the ability to update/delete entities
directly in the persistent storage.

The reason why O/R mappers don't offer these query capabilities often
is based on the fact that it would make their internal caches
completely void.

2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return
datatype of a query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or
reorder the elements in this collection...th is restrict a lot the way
you can work, specially if you are iterating in a loop and have to
make changes to the same table you are iterating...

I'm not sure what your question is, but I don't recognize this
limitation in my work. Which 'ORM' frameworks are you talking about?

Frans


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bruce One]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Frans,
You mean you would pass a raw sql to your update/delete method? Or is it
done using Dynamic Query? If so, how an Update command like below would be
called in your BusinessLogic, in such a way you can use all Strongly-Typed
fields?

Update Customers
Set CustomerName = "Bruce"
,CustomerAge = 30
WHERE CustomerID = 30


"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" wrote:

Bruce One wrote:
>

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two big
problems:

1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to
memory. If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then you
have to query this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM could
make it easier (in a strongly type manner) to call a dynamic query to
directly update/delete records.

>
Not all O/R mappers force that on you. Some, like LLBLGen Pro (which
I'm the lead developer of), offer the ability to update/delete entities
directly in the persistent storage.
>
The reason why O/R mappers don't offer these query capabilities often
is based on the fact that it would make their internal caches
completely void.
>

2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return
datatype of a query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or
reorder the elements in this collection...th is restrict a lot the way
you can work, specially if you are iterating in a loop and have to
make changes to the same table you are iterating...

>
I'm not sure what your question is, but I don't recognize this
limitation in my work. Which 'ORM' frameworks are you talking about?
>
Frans
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Bruce One]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Jon, I saw it. But you must agree this is not Dynamic Query, it does not deal
with strongly-typed fields, its just raw sql, as the code extracted from the
Hibernate page (below)...

String hqlUpdate = "update Customer c set c.name = :newName where c.name =
:oldName";


"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" wrote:

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

Well the example you linked to me works exaclty the way I put there...look at
a piece of the code presented in the page you forward to me...

............... ..
............... .
// TAKE A LOOK AT THE getNamedQuery method. IT RETURNS ALL RECORDS THAT WILL
BE UPDATED....

ScrollableResul ts customers = session.getName dQuery("GetCust omers")
.scroll(ScrollM ode.FORWARD_ONL Y);
while ( customers.next( ) ) {
Customer customer = (Customer) customers.get(0 );
customer.update Stuff(...);
session.update( customer);
}

tx.commit();
session.close() ;

>
Please read my post more carefully. You didn't scroll down to the "DML-
style operations" section as I suggested.
>
--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
>

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

Jon, I saw it. But you must agree this is not Dynamic Query, it does not deal
with strongly-typed fields, its just raw sql, as the code extracted from the
Hibernate page (below)...
>
String hqlUpdate = "update Customer c set c.name = :newName where c.name =
:oldName";

No, it's not just raw SQL. You can use the properties to perform a
path, eg

"delete Customer c where c.address.zipco de = ...."

What else would you want out of ORM when it comes to updating or
deleting?

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Frans Bouma [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One wrote:

Frans,
You mean you would pass a raw sql to your update/delete method? Or is
it done using Dynamic Query? If so, how an Update command like below
would be called in your BusinessLogic, in such a way you can use all
Strongly-Typed fields?
>
Update Customers
Set CustomerName = "Bruce"
,CustomerAge = 30
WHERE CustomerID = 30

This uses a dummy entity instance to contain the NEW values for the
fields you're going to set. This also means that I can use an
expression.

CustomerEntity customer = new CustomerEntity( );
customer.Custom erName = "Bruce";
customer.Custom erAge = 30;
using(DataAcces sAdapter adapter = new DataAccessAdapt er())
{
adapter.UpdateE ntitiesDirectly (customer,
new RelationPredica teBucket(
CustomerFields. CustomerID==30) );
}

I also could have increased your age with 10% :) ->

CustomerEntity customer = new CustomerEntity( );
customer.Custom erName = "Bruce";
customer.Custom erAge.Expressio nToApply = (
CustomerFields. CustomerAge +
(CustomerFields .CustomerAge * 0.01f));
using(DataAcces sAdapter adapter = new DataAccessAdapt er())
{
adapter.UpdateE ntitiesDirectly (customer,
new RelationPredica teBucket(
CustomerFields. CustomerID==30) );
}

All strongly-typed compile time checked code.

FB

>
>
"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" wrote:
>

Bruce One wrote:

For all the ORM i have searched around, I have always found two
big problems:
>
1) To update or delete a set of records you must first bring it to
memory. If you are inside a loop and have to do it n times, then
you have to query this set n times as well. Would be nice if ORM
could make it easier (in a strongly type manner) to call a
dynamic query to directly update/delete records.

Not all O/R mappers force that on you. Some, like LLBLGen Pro
(which I'm the lead developer of), offer the ability to
update/delete entities directly in the persistent storage.

The reason why O/R mappers don't offer these query capabilities
often is based on the fact that it would make their internal caches
completely void.

2) I have noticed all ORM work with collection as thei return
datatype of a query. Well, you cannot add, delete, replace, or
reorder the elements in this collection...th is restrict a lot the
way you can work, specially if you are iterating in a loop and
have to make changes to the same table you are iterating...

I'm not sure what your question is, but I don't recognize this
limitation in my work. Which 'ORM' frameworks are you talking about?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead developer of LLBLGen Pro, the productive O/R mapper for .NET
LLBLGen Pro website: http://www.llblgen.com
My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
Microsoft MVP (C#)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bruce One]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Well Jon,
Its not 100% dynamic either...since you have to know table field names, as
in "c.name", rather than strongly typed fields that you could access through
intellisense...

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" wrote:

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

Jon, I saw it. But you must agree this is not Dynamic Query, it does not deal
with strongly-typed fields, its just raw sql, as the code extracted from the
Hibernate page (below)...

String hqlUpdate = "update Customer c set c.name = :newName where c.name =
:oldName";

>
No, it's not just raw SQL. You can use the properties to perform a
path, eg
>
"delete Customer c where c.address.zipco de = ...."
>
What else would you want out of ORM when it comes to updating or
deleting?
>
--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
>

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: some problems with ORM concept....what do you think?

Bruce One <raul@virtualso ftware.com.brwr ote:

Its not 100% dynamic either...since you have to know table field names, as
in "c.name", rather than strongly typed fields that you could access through
intellisense...

That's the current state of ORM though - it's no different in the rest
of the querying etc.

It feels like you're desperately trying to find reasons not to use
ORM...

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too