If .net and j2ee are so great...

43 · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

Roedy Green:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:22:49 GMT, 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote or
> quoted :
>[color=green]
>>how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
>>
>>how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?[/color]
>
> Because these are both server side technologies. Editing a document
> is a solitary activity. It works best with instantaneous response to
> each keystroke.[/color]

they are not 'server side'

web services are 'server side'

windows client and console applications are client side.

java applications and applets are both client side.

net beans can be either. rmi means strong clients and servers.

bottom line .net/j2ee can't write the p2p applications
that are going to dominate the next 10 years.

--
http://geeks4dean.com Dean '04
Linux - Where the Beat, Meet the Elite

**Chad Myers** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

"Roedy Green" <roedy@mindprod .com> wrote in message
news:hmm8kvskiv 8u7207cep18v7sc fuj0hgois@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:22:49 GMT, 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote or
> quoted :
>[color=green]
> >how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
> >
> >how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?[/color]
>
> Because these are both server side technologies. Editing a document
> is a solitary activity. It works best with instantaneous response to
> each keystroke.[/color]

Actually,there is a good chunk of Office 2003 in .NET and it will
be moving to completely .NET switfly like most if not all MS products.

Windows 2003 Server depends heavily on the .NET Framework (whack your
c:\windows\asse mbly folder in Safe Mode and reboot and check the
Event Viewer).

I recall hearing a statistic that in Longhorn, large chunks of the
Win32 API are being moved to managed code. The API will go from
something
like 5x,xxx functions to 8,xxx functions with the difference existing
in new OO .NET assemblies.

Most of the new server products coming out require the Framework to
be installed. They are either entirely written in .NET (CMS, BizTalk),
or
partially (Commerce Server), or have strong ties (Win2K3 Server,
Exchange 2003, etc)

-c

**Chad Myers** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

"43" <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.0 8.21.05.41.41.2 16954@earthlink .net...[color=blue]
> Roedy Green:
>[color=green]
> > On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:22:49 GMT, 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote[/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green]
> > quoted :
> >[color=darkred]
> >>how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
> >>
> >>how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?[/color]
> >
> > Because these are both server side technologies. Editing a document
> > is a solitary activity. It works best with instantaneous response[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> > each keystroke.[/color]
>
> they are not 'server side'
>
> web services are 'server side'
>
> windows client and console applications are client side.
>
> java applications and applets are both client side.
>
> net beans can be either. rmi means strong clients and servers.
>
> bottom line .net/j2ee can't write the p2p applications
> that are going to dominate the next 10 years.[/color]

..NET certainly can. I don't know about Java/J2EE, I won't comment
in that regard, but .NET certainly can.

In fact, MS Research has a rather large P2P project implemented
in the .NET Framework and it's pretty impressive.

-c

**Tim Tyler** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

In comp.lang.java. advocacy 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote:
: 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote or quoted :

:>>how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
:>>
:>>how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
:>
:> Because these are both server side technologies. Editing a document
:> is a solitary activity. It works best with instantaneous response to
:> each keystroke.

: they are not 'server side'

J2EE is - as much as, say PHP is.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

**Moshe Sayag** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

..Not is not a technology but a marketing crap (AKA markitecture).
Converting M$Office to the .Not environment is easy... just start market
it as M$Office.Not

43 wrote:[color=blue]
> how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
>
> how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
>
> how come dbms systems aren't written in either?
>
> how come browsers aren't written in either?
>
> how come RealPlayer, MediaPlayer and all applications
> that need speed are written in c++ ? (except for
> LimeWire, which is a piece of shit ).
>
> how come Linux and all Linux applications are written
> in c/c++ ?
>[/color]

**Mark Marsella** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

Look what Moshe Sayag wrote in article <bi1vgg$qhv$1@n ew-usenet.uk.sun.c om>,
on Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:24:33 +0200[color=blue]
> .Not is not a technology but a marketing crap (AKA markitecture).
> Converting M$Office to the .Not environment is easy... just start market
> it as M$Office.Not
>
>
> 43 wrote:[color=green]
> > how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
> >
> > how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
> >[/color][/color]

You show your lack of knowledge, .Net is a fully developed technology
designed by the best. C# for example is a programmers dream lang.
--
Thanks
Mark Marsella

**mlw** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

43 wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> how come m$Office isn't written in .net?[/color]

I bet parts of it will be in the near future, but M$ office is so slow aqnd
disgusting that it doesn't make a difference. It will be crap, but people
will still get it on their systems and still have to pay for it.[color=blue]
>
> how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?[/color]

Because Java, and languages like it, including .NET, are interpreted
environments. They may play tricks with JITs "just in time" compilers, but
make no mistake, it is an interpreted environment.

C/C++ are not interpreted, they are compiled to machine code. Sure there are
a few theoretical examples of how a "JIT" enabled language may be able to
be faster than a compiled one, but for the most part both .NET and Java
have a huge amount of overhead and enforce an object model and programming
model that is very inefficient.

Say what you will, a well written C/C++ program will always be faster and
use less memory than a well written Java/.NET program because there is less
overhead.[color=blue]
>
> how come dbms systems aren't written in either?[/color]

Similarly, a DBMS is a complex animal. Most DBMS designs require very
carefull control over memory, disk access, arrays, data types, etc. Items
in a database have to be as efficient as possible. A byte or two or eight,
dedicated to the programming language, would cause the system to choose a
disk based algorithm over a memory based one. At that point, you just lost
to your competitor.[color=blue]
>
> how come browsers aren't written in either?[/color]

Anyone remember the "HotJava" browser? It was junk.[color=blue]
>
> how come RealPlayer, MediaPlayer and all applications
> that need speed are written in c++ ? (except for
> LimeWire, which is a piece of shit ).[/color]
Actually, I like LimeWire[color=blue]
>
> how come Linux and all Linux applications are written
> in c/c++ ?[/color]

Because all the systems come with these compilers, you have to get Java
elsewhere (usually)

Hey, Java and .NET, like VisualBasic and COBOL, are high level languages
intended for inexperienced developers or business applications. As such,
they are fine for things like LimeWire, Instant Message clients, and
perhaps some business logic stuff.

If you are going to write a system which needs 24x7 uptime, uses memory
extensively, needs to be fast, or needs to be efficient, those environments
just will not cut it. The VMs are huge to begin with and you have no real
control over memory or the specifics of your process. The only alternative
is C/C++.

**mlw** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

Mark Marsella wrote:
[color=blue]
> Look what Moshe Sayag wrote in article
> <bi1vgg$qhv$1@n ew-usenet.uk.sun.c om>, on Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:24:33 +0200[color=green]
>> .Not is not a technology but a marketing crap (AKA markitecture).
>> Converting M$Office to the .Not environment is easy... just start market
>> it as M$Office.Not
>>
>>
>> 43 wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
>> >
>> > how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
>> >[/color][/color]
>
> You show your lack of knowledge, .Net is a fully developed technology
> designed by the best. C# for example is a programmers dream lang.[/color]

Having programmed and designed software and hardware for over 20 years, I
can honestly say .NET is a dreadful language and environment. Not only is
it a virtual copy of Java with just enough syntactic differences to be
annoying, its so much like Java that it is not usable for non-trivial
applications.

Interpreted languages will *NEVER* be sufficient for hard core performance
or 24x7x365 reliability. For these types of applications, you need serious
control over every aspect of the application, which these system do not
provide.

**Tim Tyler** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

mlw <mlw@nospam.n o> wrote:

: Having programmed and designed software and hardware for over 20 years, I
: can honestly say .NET is a dreadful language and environment. Not only is
: it a virtual copy of Java with just enough syntactic differences to be
: annoying, its so much like Java that it is not usable for non-trivial
: applications.

: Interpreted languages will *NEVER* be sufficient for hard core performance
: or 24x7x365 reliability. [...]

You may have a long track record - but if you think Java and .NET are
interpreted... I reckon you are probably in need of a refresher course.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

**Tim Tyler** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

mlw <mlw@nospam.n o> wrote:

[Re: how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?]

: Because Java, and languages like it, including .NET, are interpreted
: environments. They may play tricks with JITs "just in time" compilers, but
: make no mistake, it is an interpreted environment.

Uh - no they aren't. C'mon - get with the program here.

Java bytecodes were interpreted back in 1995. Things have moved on since then.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1.org

**asj** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

j2ee is a SERVER-SIDE specification. it would be pretty hard to write
a desktop application using serverside implementations .

..net however, is pretty much EVERYTHING on microsoft's side, so they
are not actually directly comparable, and i do expect .net stuff to be
coming out on desktops in large numbers.

43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2003. 08.21.05.21.43. 335274@earthlin k.net>...[color=blue]
> how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
>
> how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
>
> how come dbms systems aren't written in either?
>
> how come browsers aren't written in either?
>
> how come RealPlayer, MediaPlayer and all applications
> that need speed are written in c++ ? (except for
> LimeWire, which is a piece of shit ).
>
> how come Linux and all Linux applications are written
> in c/c++ ?[/color]

**mlw** · Jul 19 '05, 03:56 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

Tim Tyler wrote:
[color=blue]
> mlw <mlw@nospam.n o> wrote:
>
> [Re: how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?]
>
> : Because Java, and languages like it, including .NET, are interpreted
> : environments. They may play tricks with JITs "just in time" compilers,
> : but make no mistake, it is an interpreted environment.
>
> Uh - no they aren't. C'mon - get with the program here.
>
> Java bytecodes were interpreted back in 1995. Things have moved on since
> then.[/color]

So, are you saying java programs are native binaries now? I can open one up
and see native x86 code? of course not, they are tokenized source. So much
so that you can dump out the originating source from a decompiler (sans
comments).

Not everything is JITed, and JITing takes time. It is a high level
interpretor, to claim otherwise is really being misinformed.

**John Straumann** · Jul 19 '05, 03:57 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

This is an idiotic question, and Erik's response is pretty close to teh
mark. .NET is a new technology and MS Office has been around for years. What
would the value to Microsoft be in committing teams of programmers to
rewrite MS Office in .NET? The same goes for SQL server or any other
exisiting product.

..NET is a fantastic platform for distributed development, far superior to
J2EE (and I've used both extensively)...

John.

"43" <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.0 8.21.05.21.43.3 35274@earthlink .net...[color=blue]
>
> how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
>
> how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?
>
> how come dbms systems aren't written in either?
>
> how come browsers aren't written in either?
>
> how come RealPlayer, MediaPlayer and all applications
> that need speed are written in c++ ? (except for
> LimeWire, which is a piece of shit ).
>
> how come Linux and all Linux applications are written
> in c/c++ ?
>
> --
> http://geeks4dean.com Dean '04
> Linux - Where the Beat, Meet the Elite
>[/color]

**Michael A. Covington** · Jul 19 '05, 03:57 AM

Re: If .net and j2ee are so great...

"Roedy Green" <roedy@mindprod .com> wrote in message
news:hmm8kvskiv 8u7207cep18v7sc fuj0hgois@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:22:49 GMT, 43 <jabailo@earthl ink.net> wrote or
> quoted :
>[color=green]
> >how come m$Office isn't written in .net?
> >
> >how come Open Office isn't written in j2ee?[/color]
>
> Because these are both server side technologies. Editing a document
> is a solitary activity. It works best with instantaneous response to
> each keystroke.[/color]

I think you are confusing .NET with ASP.NET. .NET is an object-oriented
API that has no particular association with servers. It's a great way to
write applications.

The reason MS Office isn't written in .NET has something to do with MS
Office being invented about 10 years before .NET was invented! Same reason
the battle reports of Julius Caesar aren't written in English...

If .net and j2ee are so great...

If .net and j2ee are so great...

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment