Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

**Fergus Cooney** · Nov 22 '05, 05:58 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Hello nospam,

How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and progressing nicely
with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at the usual
bargain prices.

Regards,
Fergus

**Empire City** · Nov 22 '05, 05:58 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
The site looks very nice to me.
[color=blue]
> HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?[/color]

Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle. Subtract
from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to produce
the same result.
[color=blue]
> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????[/color]

They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
and specification.
[color=blue]
> BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST[/color]
DESIGN[color=blue]
> CHANGES ISN'T IT?[/color]

If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?
[color=blue]
> IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!![/color]

I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system to
be able to make me a cheeseburger.
[color=blue]
> world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able[/color]
to[color=blue]
> do it??????[/color]

Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was auditable
they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
day. I think they could afford a good design.
[color=blue]
> Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more[/color]
features

Is that a trick question?
[color=blue]
> and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
> PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?[/color]

Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
leads to flexibility and understandabili ty wether it's oo design or
whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of my
world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).
[color=blue]
> WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
> (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the[/color]
KEY[color=blue]
> things change all the time?[/color]

What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
basement anymore.
[color=blue]
> OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use[/color]
Inheritance,[color=blue]
> why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?[/color]

Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a good
way to use Inheritance.
[color=blue]
> BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING[/color]
QUESTIONS[color=blue]
> ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT[/color]
A[color=blue]
> PDC SEMINAR....[/color]

That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.
[color=blue]
> EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> implementing changes...
> Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
> Fortune 500 web site?????[/color]

So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
[color=blue]
> THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.[/color]

Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
fact.
[color=blue]
> IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
> COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.[/color]

Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated to
see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
[color=blue]
> AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????[/color]

Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?

The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario of
what you are looking at.

You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design, ie:
been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as is
the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of that.
One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level analyst,
senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst, senior
business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.

I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your posting.
It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
limited way.

**Empire City** · Nov 22 '05, 05:58 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.

**Empire City** · Nov 22 '05, 05:58 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.

**Empire City** · Nov 22 '05, 05:58 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.

**Bob Lehmann** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

So, do you only read the csharp group? :>)

PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.

Bob Lehmann

"Empire City" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:sU8rb.1268 22$pT1.21805@tw ister.nyc.rr.co m...[color=blue]
> Forgot to ad that I only read the csharp group if you want to respond.
>
>
>[/color]

**Empire City** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
ignoramus.

I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
into the framework and aspnet side.
[color=blue]
> PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
> unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.[/color]

**Fergus Cooney** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Hi Empire,

Well, the whole VB group is reading you loud and clear, over!
And all the others listed up there in the newsgroups box.

So, inadvertent or not, Welcome to the world outside csharp. ;-))

Regards,
Fergus

**William Ryan** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

My job isn't going offshore... and heck, I have more work than I can shake a
stick at. You live in the richest country in the world and have
opportunities that many people can only dream of. If people many more
hurdles than you ever had to deal with can convince those paying you, to go
with them instead to the point it disrupts your career, that says a lot more
about you than it does about OOP.

You can't build anything worth selling without embracing objects... you are
insane.

Can you show us some examples of your ultra elite web sites or programs?
How about a press release from some of your stellar products? Or a Resume?

Since I have yet to see you post anything positive or productive, why don't
you and Bailo start a PhP newsgroup somewhere, you can even write it in one
tier with procedural code, and hell, use Comma Separated Text files for your
database.
"nospam" <n@ntspam.com > wrote in message
news:exSi1VgpDH A.3616@tk2msftn gp13.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> THIS IS the DOTNETJUNKIES MESSAGE
> -------------------------
> We're Sorry
> As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
> overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.c om also.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> YEP, DOTNET JUNKIES REDESIGN....
>
> What happened to the OOP n-Tier stuff? Huhhhhhh??????
>
> Where is that 2-SECOND CHANGE?
>
> WOW...TOTAL REBUILD OF THE ENTIRE ENGINE!!!!
>
> HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>
> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????
>
> BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST[/color]
DESIGN[color=blue]
> CHANGES ISN'T IT?
>
> BUT GUESS WHAT? IT DIDN"T HAPPEN.
>
> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
>
> IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!!
>
> EVEN A MODERATELY COMPLEX site like DotNetJunkies can't do it, why in the
> world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be able[/color]
to[color=blue]
> do it??????
>
> Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get more
> features and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the[/color]
DESIGN[color=blue]
> PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?
>
> WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a BLUEPRINT
> (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the[/color]
KEY[color=blue]
> things change all the time?
>
> OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use[/color]
Inheritance,[color=blue]
> why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?
>
> Well it's because they want a CLEAN site......INHER ITANCE = LEGACY = LOWER
> QUALITY = 2 CODE BASES = MORE MAINTENANCE = MORE WORK = MORE TIME WASTED
>
>
> You OOP n-TIER fanactics have to face up to the fact the the OOP model[/color]
can't[color=blue]
> work in the business world? Where are all those design patterns?
>
> If these guys can't do it, why should you MVP's and OOP FANATICS who don't
> even have a web site be able to do it?
>
> BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING[/color]
QUESTIONS[color=blue]
> ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING OUT[/color]
A[color=blue]
> PDC SEMINAR....
>
>
>
> EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> implementing changes...
> Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger e-Commerce
> Fortune 500 web site?????
>
>
> STICK THAT IN YOUR EAR!!!!!!
>
> THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.
>
> IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
> COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.
>
> AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????
>
>
>
> THIS IS THE REST OF THEIR MESSAGE...
> ------------------------------------------------
> We're Sorry
> As many of you know we have recently launched SqlJunkies.com. We have
> overhauled our runtime and will be using it on DotNetJunkies.c om also.[/color]
With[color=blue]
> the new runtime and build we implemented a central users database so you
> don't have to sign up on multiple sites. The downfall is that we had to[/color]
put[color=blue]
> a hold on the database currently running DotNetJunkies. What that means to
> you is that we can't add new articles, news, events, or even members.
> Although, new members can sign up on SqlJunkies Here and when we launch[/color]
the[color=blue]
> new build of DotNetJunkies you will automatically be a member.
> Rest assured we have a ton of articles and how to's on hold so when we
> launch you'll see a ton of new stuff.
>
> Again we're sorry for any hassle we may be causing and the new build will[/color]
be[color=blue]
> up shortly.
>
>
>
>
>
>[/color]

**nospam** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Hello Fergus,

Are you calling DotNetJunkies.c om web site a MOM and POP operations?
Don't have anything to say do you? If you do, why not say it to
DotNetJunkies.c om? They are the one who's site is down for an extended
period of time.

What's a matter? Are you in complete denial?

............... ....

"Fergus Cooney" <filter@post.co m> wrote in message
news:OoNhtbgpDH A.1948@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> Hello nospam,
>
> How's MOM and POP these days? I trust that they''re doing well and[/color]
progressing nicely[color=blue]
> with their Windows Server, IIS, ASP.NET, MSDN subscription and all that at[/color]
the usual[color=blue]
> bargain prices.
>
> Regards,
> Fergus
>
>[/color]

**Bob Lehmann** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Sorry, I was ribbing you about the 3 posts with the same message - note the
smiley. No offense intended.

Bob Lehmann

"Empire City" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:_Parb.5665 8$Gq.11647710@t wister.nyc.rr.c om...[color=blue]
> Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
> ignoramus.
>
> I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
> until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
> but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
> into the framework and aspnet side.
>[color=green]
> > PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
> > unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.[/color]
>
>
>[/color]

**nospam** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

COMMENTS INLINE BELOW.......... .....

"Empire City" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:JQ8rb.1267 79$pT1.87256@tw ister.nyc.rr.co m...[color=blue]
> You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
> that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the market.
> The site looks very nice to me.
>[color=green]
> > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?[/color]
>
> Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle.[/color]
Subtract[color=blue]
> from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to[/color]
produce[color=blue]
> the same result.
>[/color]

BLAH BLAH BLAH....
DotNetJunkies.c om are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even have a
web site to even point to.

[color=blue][color=green]
> > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????[/color]
>
> They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for a
> project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the design
> and specification.[/color]

$200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST[/color]
> DESIGN[color=green]
> > CHANGES ISN'T IT?[/color]
>
> If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would be
> best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?[/color]

DUHHHHHHH......
I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web site,
but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you spend
all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to find
the time to actually produce a web site.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!![/color]
>
> I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my system[/color]
to[color=blue]
> be able to make me a cheeseburger.
>[color=green]
> > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be[/color][/color]
able[color=blue]
> to[color=green]
> > do it??????[/color]
>
> Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was[/color]
auditable[color=blue]
> they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million a
> day. I think they could afford a good design.[/color]

PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get[/color][/color]
more[color=blue]
> features
>
> Is that a trick question?
>[color=green]
> > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
> > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?[/color]
>
> Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
> maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good design
> leads to flexibility and understandabili ty wether it's oo design or
> whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to agree
> that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
> Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to a
> physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
> talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
> perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of[/color]
my[color=blue]
> world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
> Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).[/color]

No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP n-TIER
architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from SCRATCH
AGAIN AND AGAIN.

OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL WORLD
because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.

That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.c om are
in right now.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a[/color][/color]
BLUEPRINT[color=blue][color=green]
> > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if the[/color]
> KEY[color=green]
> > things change all the time?[/color]
>
> What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
> basement anymore.[/color]

YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the foundation
changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the FOUNDATION
CHANGES ALL THE TIME.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use[/color]
> Inheritance,[color=green]
> > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?[/color]
>
> Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people overuse
> web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a[/color]
good[color=blue]
> way to use Inheritance.[/color]

Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something SO
SIMPLE.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING[/color]
> QUESTIONS[color=green]
> > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING[/color][/color]
OUT[color=blue]
> A[color=green]
> > PDC SEMINAR....[/color]
>
> That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
> etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.[/color]

YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> > implementing changes...
> > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger[/color][/color]
e-Commerce[color=blue][color=green]
> > Fortune 500 web site?????[/color]
>
> So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
>[color=green]
> > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.[/color]
>
> Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
> fact.[/color]

*PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they got
their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their OWN
WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as they
are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for their
books that works here and there.

[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are in
> > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.[/color]
>
> Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be facinated[/color]
to[color=blue]
> see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing towards
> their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
>[color=green]
> > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????[/color]
>
> Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?[/color]

I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the same
CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.

[color=blue]
>
> The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
> your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the scenario[/color]
of[color=blue]
> what you are looking at.
>
> You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design,[/color]
ie:[color=blue]
> been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
> methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving as[/color]
is[color=blue]
> the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of[/color]
that.[color=blue]
> One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master programmer.
> One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
> mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level[/color]
analyst,[color=blue]
> senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst,[/color]
senior[color=blue]
> business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.
>
> I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your[/color]
posting.[color=blue]
> It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
> personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down people
> who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their own
> limited way.
>
>
>[/color]

**nospam** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

If you really want to LEARN something, TRY ACTUALLY DOING IT instead of
sticking your head in some book made by authors who they themselves don't
produce production code, NOR maintain their web site and see all the
problems. Tiny pieces of *example* code in a book is a way way different
then an entire enterprise application that YOU, YOURSELF, PERSONALLY have to
MAINTAIN.

There is a BIG difference in an OOP / n-TIER architect who sits around
telling other programmers what to do and creating his object model diagram
in Visio or Rational or whatever you want in like UML and USE CASES, AND the
ACTUAL PROGRAMMER who has to understand all that FAILED OOP crap from some
arrogant nitwit whose only accomplishment is their resume that is full of
HOLLOW technical articles or books and a bunch of 3 or 4 letter acronyms.

PERIOD.

"Empire City" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:_Parb.5665 8$Gq.11647710@t wister.nyc.rr.c om...[color=blue]
> Makes you think about the difference between being ignorant and an
> ignoramus.
>
> I'm not sure why I only read the CSharp group. I never did VB. Did FoxPro
> until a few years ago, before that was a mini/mainframe person. I like C#,
> but am still learning it. I guess at some point my learning will get more
> into the framework and aspnet side.
>[color=green]
> > PS - nospam is an idiot. He occasionally trolls the groups with his
> > unifromed, ignorant anti-OOP blatherings.[/color]
>
>
>[/color]

**William Ryan** · Nov 22 '05, 05:59 AM

Re: Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

So what is your alternative to OOP. Be Specific. Every other time I've
asked, you've come up with some platitude about simplicity.

So let me speak from experience. Check out www.devbuzz.com .(check out the
Forums on the CF for instance...I'm a moderator there and can speak to how
Derrick built it). One guy got that site up and running before ASP.NET was
even around...and he's built it with, you guessed it OOP. I didn't design
it but I actively work on it and support it, and without OOP it wouldn't be
worth the effort.!

Check out my company web site.... www.infoprogroup.com (or
https://inforporgroup.com/SecureFTP once again, done with OOP (Flash,
ASP.NET, Infragistics and Dart SecureFTP). I can show you two other sites
that I've built all by my little self, HIPPA compliant, SSL enabled, using
components like Infragistics tools (all OOP components) and Component one.

Check out www.csharpcorner.com and www.ipaq.net both built off of components
and OOP (based on the ASP.NET starter kits). While I had nothing to do with
building either of these...the source is published for free there and one
can take it and get a site up and running in under a few hours if you have
a SQL Server and know IIS at a basic level. OOP at its best.

So what would you use...if not OOP? Glue your businesss logic into your UI?
Be specific about what you would do, or quit trashing the good work that
others do.

Just b/c dotnetjunkies had ONE problem, that's a failure of OOP? Hmm, it's
been up and running quite well for a long time. It's also a project that
the brilliant developers of that site did as a hobby. Where are your URL's?
"nospam" <n@ntspam.com > wrote in message
news:O3T2jukpDH A.2232@TK2MSFTN GP09.phx.gbl...[color=blue]
> COMMENTS INLINE BELOW.......... .....
>
>
> "Empire City" <a@b.com> wrote in message
> news:JQ8rb.1267 79$pT1.87256@tw ister.nyc.rr.co m...[color=green]
> > You make some interesting points but you seem a bit bitter. Did you know
> > that there are many excellent brands of decaffinated coffee on the[/color][/color]
market.[color=blue][color=green]
> > The site looks very nice to me.
> >[color=darkred]
> > > HOW COME THEY COULDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?[/color]
> >
> > Project management 101. The old time, quality, resources triangle.[/color]
> Subtract[color=green]
> > from any item it and you will need to increase one of the others to[/color]
> produce[color=green]
> > the same result.
> >[/color]
>
> BLAH BLAH BLAH....
> DotNetJunkies.c om are supposed to be the EXPERTS. Plus you don't even have[/color]
a[color=blue]
> web site to even point to.
>
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DESIGN PHASE??????[/color]
> >
> > They probably could'nt afford it. I recently quoted someone $200,000 for[/color][/color]
a[color=blue][color=green]
> > project. They were shocked. Then I told them that was just for the[/color][/color]
design[color=blue][color=green]
> > and specification.[/color]
>
>
> $200k !!! ha ha ha... no wonder why you don't have a web site.....
> I guess it would have take you 2 years to do as well right?
>
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > BUT OOP and n-TIER IS SUPPOSED TO FLEXIBLE AND EXTENSIBLE TO ALL VAST[/color]
> > DESIGN[color=darkred]
> > > CHANGES ISN'T IT?[/color]
> >
> > If written properly. It would seem to me that vast design changes would[/color][/color]
be[color=blue][color=green]
> > best off with a new design. Did you ever read a book on oo programming?[/color]
>
>
> DUHHHHHHH......
> I guess you could have written it properly then? I don't see your web[/color]
site,[color=blue]
> but then again it takes you 2 years to do one anyway. So, I guess you[/color]
spend[color=blue]
> all your time reading books on OO programming, YET, just can't seem to[/color]
find[color=blue]
> the time to actually produce a web site.
>
>
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > IT MEANS YOU CAN"T PREDICT THE FUTURE in YOUR DESIGN PHASE!!!![/color]
> >
> > I can predict with absolute 100% certainty that I'd always like my[/color][/color]
system[color=blue]
> to[color=green]
> > be able to make me a cheeseburger.
> >[color=darkred]
> > > world should you think that a corporate site that has COMPETITORS be[/color][/color]
> able[color=green]
> > to[color=darkred]
> > > do it??????[/color]
> >
> > Let's say a JP Morgan sees that if they had a nice system that was[/color]
> auditable[color=green]
> > they could open a new credit derivitave market and could make 20 million[/color][/color]
a[color=blue][color=green]
> > day. I think they could afford a good design.[/color]
>
>
> PERHAPS, BUT you would take 2-3 years to implement it once you finished
> reading your OOP book that you love to be brainwashed with.
>
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > Did it ever occur to you that as the web site gets older, it will get[/color][/color]
> more[color=green]
> > features
> >
> > Is that a trick question?
> >[color=darkred]
> > > and more requirements that will NEVER be designed for in the DESIGN
> > > PHASE of OOP n-Tier methodology?[/color]
> >
> > Totally incorrect. Let's just take a simple example of a customer
> > maintenance screen that you may want to add another field too. Good[/color][/color]
design[color=blue][color=green]
> > leads to flexibility and understandabili ty wether it's oo design or
> > whatever. Poor design leads to less flexibility. In a way I have to[/color][/color]
agree[color=blue][color=green]
> > that the multi-tier design may be seen somewhat as a limitation of MS.
> > Specifically that you might need to take a logical layer and move it to[/color][/color]
a[color=blue][color=green]
> > physical layer on a different machine for performance reasons. Maybe a
> > talking point would be using a Sun/Oracle system instead. No design is
> > perfect because the world is not perfect (possibly with the exception of[/color]
> my[color=green]
> > world, hopefully I'll get to go out rollerblading down to West Broadway
> > Soho, 41 degrees and sunny in the Big Apple).[/color]
>
>
> No design is PERFECT!!!! DUHHHHHH!!!!
> So why do you OOP NITWITS try to design with the same UN-FLEXIBLE OOP[/color]
n-TIER[color=blue]
> architecture AGAIN AND AGAIN only to RE-WRITE the WHOLE thing from SCRATCH
> AGAIN AND AGAIN.
>
> OOP / n-TIER TALKS of FLEXIBILITY but NEVER ACHIEVES it in the REAL WORLD
> because IT has NO IDEA where it should be flexible in the first place.
>
> That's why YOU are always in RE=WRITE mode, just like DotNetJunkies.c om[/color]
are[color=blue]
> in right now.
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > WEB SITES ARE NOT LIKE HOUSES or BUILDING CARS where you have a[/color][/color]
> BLUEPRINT[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > (OR OBJECT MODEL) of what to make. What good is your OBJECT MODEL if[/color][/color][/color]
the[color=blue][color=green]
> > KEY[color=darkred]
> > > things change all the time?[/color]
> >
> > What good is the blueprint of a house if you decide you don't want a
> > basement anymore.[/color]
>
>
> YES, that right! What good is a blueprint or OBJECT MODEL if the[/color]
foundation[color=blue]
> changes? And THAT's exactly what happens in the REAL WORLD, the[/color]
FOUNDATION[color=blue]
> CHANGES ALL THE TIME.
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > OH, but what about INHERITANCE? Well, doesn't seem to be used that
> > > effectively by the DotNetJunkies site does it? IF they did use[/color]
> > Inheritance,[color=darkred]
> > > why did they have to do a complete engine redesign?[/color]
> >
> > Sounds like they are overusing Inheritance in a similar way people[/color][/color]
overuse[color=blue][color=green]
> > web services. Look at the PageBase module of the Duwamish sample for a[/color]
> good[color=green]
> > way to use Inheritance.[/color]
>
>
> Duwamish is a complete MESS....OVER COMPLICATED solution for something SO
> SIMPLE.
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > BUILDING A PRODUCTION WEB SITE IS A LOT HARDER THEN JUST ANSWERING[/color]
> > QUESTIONS[color=darkred]
> > > ON THE NEWSGROUPS or TEACHING ANY and ALL .NET CLASSES OR EVEN GIVING[/color][/color]
> OUT[color=green]
> > A[color=darkred]
> > > PDC SEMINAR....[/color]
> >
> > That seems rather obvious. You might want to figure out a bit of list
> > etiquette. The purpose of these lists is learning.[/color]
>
>
> YOU CAN'T LEARN if you CAN'T ADMIT YOUR MISTAKES.
> THE OOP / n-TIER CULT needs to admit that OOP and N-TIER has SEVERE
> LIMITATIONS and has a POOR TRACK RECORD in the REAL WORLD.
>
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > EVEN THE .NET PORTAL and DOTNETNUKE have LOTS AND LOTS of trouble
> > > implementing changes...
> > > Why should you expect it to be any different for an even larger[/color][/color]
> e-Commerce[color=green][color=darkred]
> > > Fortune 500 web site?????[/color]
> >
> > So should we feel sorry for dotnetnukes?
> >[color=darkred]
> > > THOSE ARE THE FACTS. PERIOD.[/color]
> >
> > Yes, you are often stating facts. Does saying period make them more of a
> > fact.[/color]
>
>
>
> *PERIOD* helps the BRAINWASHED know where things begin and end as they got
> their heads buried in the OOP books whose AUTHORS also don't have their[/color]
OWN[color=blue]
> WEB SITE, NOR built it from scratch and maintain it 100% themselves as[/color]
they[color=blue]
> are TOO busy at conferences speakiing or writing LITE EXAMPLE CODE for[/color]
their[color=blue]
> books that works here and there.
>
>[color=green]
> >[color=darkred]
> > > IF YOU are STILL so BRAINWASHED on the n-TIER / OOP BENEFITS you are[/color][/color][/color]
in[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> > > COMPLETE DENIAL OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD.[/color]
> >
> > Can you propose a different way to go? I'm sure we would all be[/color][/color]
facinated[color=blue]
> to[color=green]
> > see something. Don't confuse corporate, media and MS brainwashing[/color][/color]
towards[color=blue][color=green]
> > their particular products with solid scientific design benefits.
> >[color=darkred]
> > > AND THAT"S WHY YOUR JOBS ARE GOING OFFSHORE. BECAUSE OOP AND N-TIER
> > > ARCHITECTURE PRODUCE LOW QUALITY PRODUCTS and IF I am going to get LOW
> > > quality products why should I pay TOP consulting fee prices....????[/color]
> >
> > Are you saying that programmers in India don't use oo design?[/color]
>
>
> I am saying programmers in India do use OO design which produces the same
> CRAPPY INFLEXIBLE software that you get in this country.
>
>[color=green]
> >
> > The other response I saw on the C# list basically completly responded to
> > your posting with three words "Mom and Pop" That seems to be the[/color][/color]
scenario[color=blue]
> of[color=green]
> > what you are looking at.
> >
> > You can't expect a young person to be a real world expert on oo design,[/color]
> ie:[color=green]
> > been there, done that, now know how to do it again a bit better now. OO
> > methodology has'nt even been around that long. It's definetly evolving[/color][/color]
as[color=blue]
> is[color=green]
> > the speed of computer hardware and how software can take advantage of[/color]
> that.[color=green]
> > One does not learn to be a master programmer by being a master[/color][/color]
programmer.[color=blue][color=green]
> > One learns to be a master programmer by first being a junior programmer,
> > mid-level programmer, senior programmer, junior analyst, mid-level[/color]
> analyst,[color=green]
> > senior analyst, junior business analyst, mid-level business analyst,[/color]
> senior[color=green]
> > business analyst, ..., project leader, project manager, etc.
> >
> > I personally don't really find a problem with the attitude of your[/color]
> posting.[color=green]
> > It was interesting. I believe in throwing a bit of entertainment and
> > personality into our world of computer science. But don't put down[/color][/color]
people[color=blue][color=green]
> > who are trying to help others in what may appear to you to be in their[/color][/color]
own[color=blue][color=green]
> > limited way.
> >
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

Another FAILED n-Tier / OOP Web project.......

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