Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

[Prisoner at War]

Okay, I think I'll soon be getting all the JavaScript/CSS/DHTML-
related "site mechanics" wrapped up...at least until I decide on real
Ajax-style interactivity next year!

But until then, I'd be interest in strategies for dealing with those
visitors who don't have JavaScript enabled...how I can not only give
them the same access, but not make that access "corny"?

Like, for example, I want a modal window to pop up on a
hyperlink...but someone without JavaScript enabled would not get that
modal window effect, and would instead simply be sent along as if to a
"real" hyperlink, complete with a "page redraw," totally breaking the
design! How can I prevent that, while ensuring that such a visitor
still gets the information?

Etc.

As always, so many thanks for all your time and help!!

[Gregor Kofler]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

Prisoner at War meinte:

Okay, I think I'll soon be getting all the JavaScript/CSS/DHTML-
related "site mechanics" wrapped up...at least until I decide on real
Ajax-style interactivity next year!
>
But until then, I'd be interest in strategies for dealing with those
visitors who don't have JavaScript enabled...how I can not only give
them the same access, but not make that access "corny"?
>
Like, for example, I want a modal window to pop up on a
hyperlink...but someone without JavaScript enabled would not get that
modal window effect, and would instead simply be sent along as if to a
"real" hyperlink, complete with a "page redraw," totally breaking the
design! How can I prevent that, while ensuring that such a visitor
still gets the information?
>
Etc.
>
As always, so many thanks for all your time and help!!

Design your site without any JS involved. If it works decently, add JS
stuff as "nice-to-have-or-look-at". E.g. the non JS version comes
without popup calendar, error messages are not in modals, but plain
server-generated messages. Forms must be validated on the server-side,
but one can add AJAX functionality for a better response times.

However, some features will lead to "parallel" (and labor-intense)
solutions. E.g. the online shop. The classic one with checkboxes, the
nice one with drag-and-drop baskets.

Gregor


--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

[Prisoner at War]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On Apr 30, 7:03 pm, Gregor Kofler <use...@gregork ofler.atwrote:

>
>
Design your site without any JS involved. If it works decently, add JS
stuff as "nice-to-have-or-look-at".

Actually, that's exactly how I started out...then I realized that some
folks choose to disable JavaScript!

E.g. the non JS version comes
without popup calendar, error messages are not in modals, but plain
server-generated messages.

Unfortunately, my webhost doesn't allow server-side scripting!

http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html

Forms must be validated on the server-side,
but one can add AJAX functionality for a better response times.

Oh no, does Ajax involve any server-side scripting, then? Hmmm, I
figured I'd learn with this webhost of mine, but it seems I may be
coming up against its technical limitations sooner or later!

However, some features will lead to "parallel" (and labor-intense)
solutions. E.g. the online shop. The classic one with checkboxes, the
nice one with drag-and-drop baskets.

Well, I was wondering how to avoid parallel or duplicate solutions,
too, which falls under the heading of "corny" and "inelegant"...I 've
only got a few bits of JavaScript, actually, but they're "legit" and
important, like a JavaScript search engine (technically, a directory
pretending to be a search engine!)...I was wondering how best to
gracefully provide for such circumstances.. ..

[Gregor Kofler]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

Prisoner at War meinte:

On Apr 30, 7:03 pm, Gregor Kofler <use...@gregork ofler.atwrote:

>>
>Design your site without any JS involved. If it works decently, add JS
>stuff as "nice-to-have-or-look-at".

>
Actually, that's exactly how I started out...then I realized that some
folks choose to disable JavaScript!

So what? They get the not-soooo-pretty-but-still-perfectly-usable page.

Unfortunately, my webhost doesn't allow server-side scripting!

Hey, then it's easy. You can forget about all the "serious" stuff, since
XHR (aka AJAX) doesn't make (much) sense without server side scripting.

>

http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html

>

>Forms must be validated on the server-side,
>but one can add AJAX functionality for a better response times.

>
Oh no, does Ajax involve any server-side scripting, then?

Practically speaking: Yes.

>However, some features will lead to "parallel" (and labor-intense)
>solutions. E.g. the online shop. The classic one with checkboxes, the
>nice one with drag-and-drop baskets.

>
Well, I was wondering how to avoid parallel or duplicate solutions,

As I said: It's *extremely* unlikely, to find a solution, where you just
add some JS to your classic checkbox-driven shopping cart, and it
becomes automagically a smooth drag-and-drop-application.

Gregor


--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

[VK]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 1, 2:57 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_.. .@yahoo.comwrot e:

I'd be interest in strategies for dealing with those
visitors who don't have JavaScript enabled

Such strategy depends on the solution you are making.
If it is a conventional Web 1.0 site with Javascript used to "nice up"
your pages then check your pages with Javascript disabled to make sure
that they are still accessible, navigable and usable.
for a sample see for instance amazon.com or hotmail.com

If it is a Web 2.0 solution where client-side script-driven interface
is an essential part then don't forget to provide a user notification
with instructions what does he/she have to do to use your resources.
for a sample see for instance www.youtube.com or www.facebook.com

In either case <noscriptbloc ks are very handy.

[David Stone]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

In article
<69ab50ea-28e1-4e93-9f65-cc27e536d128@56 g2000hsm.google groups.com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_wa r@yahoo.comwrot e:

On Apr 30, 7:03 pm, Gregor Kofler <use...@gregork ofler.atwrote:

Design your site without any JS involved. If it works decently, add JS
stuff as "nice-to-have-or-look-at".

>
Actually, that's exactly how I started out...then I realized that some
folks choose to disable JavaScript!
>

E.g. the non JS version comes
without popup calendar, error messages are not in modals, but plain
server-generated messages.

>
Unfortunately, my webhost doesn't allow server-side scripting!
>
http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html

I would start by having your basic page layout contained within
the <bodyof your of your document, rather than a completely
empty one!

Figure out what you need to have so that visitors have something
to see _without_ resorting to JS or <noscriptblocks .

If you have stuff that absolutely has to be delivered via JS, load
it into <div>s with specific id values rather than constructing
the entire page that way.

Here's what I see when I visit your site in Firefox with the
NoScript plug-in enabled:

http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/~dstone/sunnyside.tiff

- stunning, isn't it? ;)

[Prisoner at War]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 1, 8:17 am, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:

>
>
I would start by having your basic page layout contained within
the <bodyof your of your document, rather than a completely
empty one!

Huh?? Have basic page layout in the <bodytag instead of an external
CSS file?!

Figure out what you need to have so that visitors have something
to see _without_ resorting to JS or <noscriptblocks .

"Look and feel" is very important to the "ethos" of my site, and I use
JavaScript as a kind of communication, since to my mind "special
effects" are like a sort of "body language" -- stuff that
communicates, but non-verbally. For visitors who would put on
"JavaScript blinders" I need to make content accessible, but without
making duplicate pages. Problem is, something like a modal window --
how else to get that same info across when JavaScript is disabled??

If you have stuff that absolutely has to be delivered via JS, load
it into <div>s with specific id values rather than constructing
the entire page that way.

Well, that JavaScript site search engine (again, really a directory)
needs to work...I was thinking of using the Google Free thinggy in
case JavaScript is disabled (Google Free isn't JavaScript, too, is
it??)....

Here's what I see when I visit your site in Firefox with the
NoScript plug-in enabled:
>

http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/~dstone/sunnyside.tiff

>
- stunning, isn't it? ;)

Hey, wait a minute!!

I have JavaScript disabled in Internet Explorer 7 (it was disabled by
default for some reason) and I can still view that site nicely, with
the JavaScript working just fine -- I think I wrote about it in my
"browser weirdness" thread on CLJ a month ago...for some reason,
http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html with all its JavaScript
worked fine but my offline site, which I tested in IE7 with JavaScript
disabled, didn't work (no image-swaps, etc.) -- ?!?!

But how did your NoScript plug-in do that??? How come simply
disabling JavaScript doesn't result in the same thing???

[Prisoner at War]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 1, 4:59 am, VK <schools_r...@y ahoo.comwrote:

>
>
Such strategy depends on the solution you are making.
If it is a conventional Web 1.0 site with Javascript used to "nice up"
your pages then check your pages with Javascript disabled to make sure
that they are still accessible, navigable and usable.

It's Web 1.0, though hopefully one day it will be so popular that the
trouble of implementing Web 2.0 would be justified!

My main concerns involve the JavaScript search engine and modal
windows.

for a sample see for instance amazon.com or hotmail.com

I think amazon insists on cookies. I hate sites that insist on
placing cookies, though I usually have no choice if I am to access
them.

If it is a Web 2.0 solution where client-side script-driven interface
is an essential part then don't forget to provide a user notification
with instructions what does he/she have to do to use your resources.
for a sample see for instancewww.you tube.comorwww.f acebook.com
>
In either case <noscriptbloc ks are very handy.

Hmmm...how can I use <noscripttags for a modal window? That's my
main issue right now (aside from a JavaScript search engine that
wouldn't work -- any work-arounds for that??): how to provide the
information given by modal windows when JavaScript is disabled....

And speaking of modal windows...I'd e-mailed you about the subModal
hyperlink you'd provided in another thread...if you don't check e-
mail, let me ask you here: how do I hack the code so as to prevent
horizontal scrollbars from showing up?? They appear when the webpage
already has vertical scrollbars. I looked on the subModal group in
Google Groups but wasn't able to make sense of the suggestion offered,
about subtracting 18 pixels from "the offset div" in the
JavaScript....

[David Stone]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

In article
<135d7795-7148-44d7-845e-b90683994ffb@a1 g2000hsb.google groups.com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_wa r@yahoo.comwrot e:

On May 1, 8:17 am, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:

I would start by having your basic page layout contained within
the <bodyof your of your document, rather than a completely
empty one!

>
Huh?? Have basic page layout in the <bodytag instead of an external
CSS file?!

No, actual CONTENT - the page you gave in your URL was completely
empty, apart from some links server up by the JS.
[snip]

Here's what I see when I visit your site in Firefox with the
NoScript plug-in enabled:

http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/~dstone/sunnyside.tiff

- stunning, isn't it? ;)

>
Hey, wait a minute!!
>
I have JavaScript disabled in Internet Explorer 7 (it was disabled by
default for some reason) and I can still view that site nicely, with
the JavaScript working just fine -- I think I wrote about it in my

Java or JavaScript? (Not the same thing!)
Disabled for ALL site, or only ones which aren't flagged as
trusted? It's been a long time since I poked preferences in
IE, and I don't have access to IE 7 at all, but my recollection
is that things a bit, um, "clearer" in Firefox and related browsers
compared to IE versions.

But how did your NoScript plug-in do that??? How come simply
disabling JavaScript doesn't result in the same thing???

Try installing Firefox and No-Script on your test box, and see if
you get the same thing...

[Gregor Kofler]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

Prisoner at War meinte:

On May 1, 12:28 pm, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:

>>
>No, actual CONTENT - the page you gave in your URL was completely
>empty, apart from some links server up by the JS.

>
Hmm, didn't realize their page was like that! That's my webhost, you
know, and they're always preaching about web standards and "KISS"....

Er... what? You're talking bout this sitesell blokes? The ones, whose
webpage issues 24 warnings when sent through the validator? The ones
using <fontand several proprietary attributes? The ones defining font
sizes in "px"?

Gregor


--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

[David Stone]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

In article
<4e7fe1f5-05ef-4eb0-8fa4-77868e45d542@x4 1g2000hsb.googl egroups.com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_wa r@yahoo.comwrot e:

On May 1, 12:28 pm, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:

No, actual CONTENT - the page you gave in your URL was completely
empty, apart from some links server up by the JS.

>
Hmm, didn't realize their page was like that! That's my webhost, you
know, and they're always preaching about web standards and "KISS"....
>

[snip]

Java or JavaScript? (Not the same thing!)

>
Actually, it's some kind of ActiveX "firewall" that seems to only
affect *my* JavaScript! Other sites' JavaScripts work fine, but the
one I'm creating offline gets that MSIE 7 warning about ActiveX
Controls...?!

Can't help you there - like I said, I don't have access to IE.
You could try the Help function...

[snip]

>
Another thing, please, since you seem really knowledgeable about
browser matters: Firefox' JavaScript console popped up for the first
time today over a modal window I was wrestling with, but it never did
before, despite my being far from being even a competent Script
Kid...so why did it decide to do that today all of a sudden?

Preferences Content - note the different options, the ability
to set site-specific exceptions, and the Advanced... button for
JavaScript settings.

Furthermore, I erased the "log activity" of the console ('cause I
couldn't understand them anyway and wanted to regenerate the error
messages by re-running that problematic modal window script) but
despite still popping up, no more error messages were posted by the
console! What the font?!?!

No idea - try the Help function...

[Prisoner at War]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 2, 7:13 am, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:

>
Can't help you there - like I said, I don't have access to IE.
You could try the Help function...
>
[snip]
>
Preferences Content - note the different options, the ability
to set site-specific exceptions, and the Advanced... button for
JavaScript settings.
>
No idea - try the Help function...

"Help" is usually not helpful -- funny how they write those
things...they'r e basically reference material which would only be
relevant to people who already know how to use the app!

But thanks for all your suggestions!

[Prisoner at War]

Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 2, 2:48 am, Gregor Kofler <use...@gregork ofler.atwrote:

>
>
Er... what? You're talking bout this sitesell blokes? The ones, whose
webpage issues 24 warnings when sent through the validator? The ones
using <fontand several proprietary attributes? The ones defining font
sizes in "px"?

Wow, that's funny! But it doesn't surprise me...they're "unique" over
there, shall we say...they're a multi-million dollar company that's
been around since ~1997 but they're first and foremost network
marketing types, so basically they're about "making money" and much
less so about "technology " and "clean code"...you know, the
"whatever's clever" sort of people (which many of us are, from time to
time concerning certain things)....

Not to badmouth my webhost, now -- they're very good in other ways,
especially for a certain kind of newbie...unfort unately, I might be
leaving them sooner or later 'cause they won't even let me upload
simple .ani or .cur files and there's no explanation why not!

If anyone else has an opinion, please check out http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html
and let me know...I've got three months "invested" in this service
and, like I said, there are many things I like about it as a n00b, but
certain little things bother me, yet the thought of transferring my
domain, etc., isn't all that appealing...plu s, their private forums
can be pretty good, especially WRT business ideas -- but like any
forum, unfortunately, there are the "top-posting police" who like to
tell people what to say and how to say it! Anyway, if anyone knows of
a comparable host (not just another webhost, but a "comparable " one,
which *they* claim there isn't!), please let me know, thanks....

[Bergamot]

Re: GG Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...


Prisoner at War wrote:

>
If anyone else has an opinion, please check out http://buildit.sitesell.com/sunnyside.html

Is there supposed to be something at that sunnyside.html page?
I just get redirected to http://buildit.sitesell.com/main/home.html

Of course, with JS disabled I only get a blank page.

--
Berg

[Prisoner at War]

Re: GG Re: Strategies for Non-JavaScript-Enabled Visitors...

On May 2, 4:35 pm, Bergamot <berga...@visi. comwrote:

Prisoner at War wrote:
>

If anyone else has an opinion, please check outhttp://buildit.sitesel l.com/sunnyside.html

>
Is there supposed to be something at that sunnyside.html page?
I just get redirected tohttp://buildit.sitesel l.com/main/home.html
>
Of course, with JS disabled I only get a blank page.
>
--
Berg

??

Sorry, I don't know what could be going on with that; it's just
supposed to be one of the webhost's pages. If you see the pitch about
why they're the best thing on the internet, blah blah blah, then
you've arrived where you should be!

You know, I'm going to try to disable JavaScript myself and
see...these guys kind of have me feeling a bit cynical...their advice
is KISS but obviously they've got JavaScript out the wazoo and their
site doesn't degrade gracefully at all! Well, what do yo expect from
MLM/network-marketing guys...even though the founder and president was
a medical doctor, oddly enough....

Oh, BTW, anybody know of a similar webhost (SBI! claims that they're
the only ones who do what they do), please let me know...I might be
looking to move my site next year once my current subscription expires
(with SBI! you pay a year in advance, though they offer pro-rated
refunds at any time)....