to learn jQuery if already using prototype

**Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

liketofindoutwh y wrote:

I am learning more and more Prototype and Script.aculo.us and got the
Bungee book... and wonder if I should get some books on jQuery (jQuery
in Action, and Learning jQuery) and start learning about it too?
[...]

Prototype.js, and consequently everything based upon it, like
Script.aculo.us , is junk. The jQuery junk support forums are
elsewhere, too.

PointedEars
--
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee

**kangax** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

On Apr 15, 9:04 am, liketofindoutwh y <liketofindout. ..@gmail.com>
wrote:

I am learning more and more Prototype and Script.aculo.us and got the
Bungee book... and wonder if I should get some books on jQuery (jQuery
in Action, and Learning jQuery) and start learning about it too?
>
Once I saw a website comparing Prototype to Java and jQuery to Ruby...
but now that I read more and more about Prototype, it is said that
Prototype actually came from Ruby on Rails development and the creator
of Prototype created it with making Prototype work like Ruby in mind.
Is jQuery also like Ruby? Thanks so much for your help.

Questions regarding prototype.js are better to be asked at

http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-spinoffs

Best,
kangax

**beegee** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

On Apr 15, 9:04 am, liketofindoutwh y <liketofindout. ..@gmail.com>
wrote:

Once I saw a website comparing Prototype to Java and jQuery to Ruby...

In a very, very superficial way, yes but no, forget what I just said.
I can't make the connection (not having read the site). Ruby and
Javascript are dynamic languages. JQuery and Prototype would not be
possible if Javascript was a compiled language like Java. And I
personally think Ruby is a beautiful language whereas I haven't
experienced a library whose "use code" looks quite as ugly as JQuery.

As PointedEars said, they are both junk. If you insist on a library,
check out YUI which is a lot like Javascript.

**Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

beegee wrote:

[...] liketofindoutwh y [...] wrote:

>Once I saw a website comparing Prototype to Java and jQuery to Ruby...

>
In a very, very superficial way, yes but no, forget what I just said.
I can't make the connection (not having read the site). Ruby and
Javascript are dynamic languages. JQuery and Prototype would not be
possible if Javascript was a compiled language like Java.

For that matter, at least JavaScript[tm] *is* a compiled language like Java.
Don't confuse prompt execution with no-compilation.

[...]
As PointedEars said, they are both junk. If you insist on a library,
check out YUI which is a lot like Javascript.

I think you miss the point. YUI is *supposedly* only "more like
'Javascript'" (whatever that might be) than Prototype or jQuery in the sense
that its developers *supposedly* knew enough about the programming languages
to unleash their full potential without having to resort to inefficient and
error-prone detours of inventing "classes" and "initialize rs" where there
are already prototypes and constructors.

PointedEars
--
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
-- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm>

**liketofindoutwhy** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

On Apr 15, 4:47 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedE...@we b.de>
wrote:

liketofindoutwh y wrote:

I am learning more and more Prototype and Script.aculo.us and got the
Bungee book... and wonder if I should get some books on jQuery (jQuery
in Action, and Learning jQuery) and start learning about it too?
[...]

>
Prototype.js, and consequently everything based upon it, like
Script.aculo.us , is junk. The jQuery junk support forums are
elsewhere, too.

So you mean Prototype and jQuery are both junk? Can you give some
points as to why you think so? For example, how else would you pass a
call back function binding to the current scope, such as
processData.bin d(this) ? I kind of like the arr.each(functi on(x)
{ ... }) or the arr.sort().uniq ().join(" ") syntax.

**Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

liketofindoutwh y wrote:

On Apr 15, 4:47 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedE...@we b.de>
wrote:

>Prototype.js , and consequently everything based upon it, like
>Script.aculo.u s, is junk. The jQuery junk support forums are
>elsewhere, too.

>
So you mean Prototype and jQuery are both junk? Can you give some
points as to why you think so?

I want popcorn.

PointedEars
--
Use any version of Microsoft Frontpage to create your site.
(This won't prevent people from viewing your source, but no one
will want to steal it.)
-- from <http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help/hidesource.htm>

**humeniuc** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

On Apr 16, 2:47 am, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedE...@we b.de>
wrote:

Prototype.js, and consequently everything based upon it, like
Script.aculo.us , is junk. The jQuery junk support forums are
elsewhere, too.
>
PointedEars

The list of the ones who uses, and consider Prototype or jQuery is
good coded is long... very long.
Some famous users:

Apple(http://www.apple.com/) uses Prototype
Google code (http://code.google.com/) uses jQuery
NASA(http://www.nasa.gov/) uses Prototype
Mozilla Addons (http://addons.mozilla.org/) uses jQuery
CNN (betaversion http://beta.cnn.com/) uses Prototype

I think PointedEars is wrong. If he could do better than jQuery,
Prototype, or YUI, maybe he could make examples of his 'great' work.
But i think he could not.

**Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

humeniuc wrote:

On Apr 16, 2:47 am, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedE...@we b.de>
wrote:

>Prototype.js , and consequently everything based upon it, like
>Script.aculo.u s, is junk. The jQuery junk support forums are
>elsewhere, too.
>[...]

>
The list of the ones who uses, and consider Prototype or jQuery is
good coded is long... very long.
Some famous users:
>
Apple(http://www.apple.com/) uses Prototype
Google code (http://code.google.com/) uses jQuery
NASA(http://www.nasa.gov/) uses Prototype
Mozilla Addons (http://addons.mozilla.org/) uses jQuery
CNN (betaversion http://beta.cnn.com/) uses Prototype

So what? They all have made the wrong design decision. Whether source code
is good is not defined by those who use it but by the source code itself.

Yours is an "appeal to authority" fallacy, BTW.

I think PointedEars is wrong. If he could do better than jQuery,
Prototype, or YUI, maybe he could make examples of his 'great' work.
But i think he could not.

And an ad hominem fallacy in addition.

PointedEars
--
realism: HTML 4.01 Strict
evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict
madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml
-- Bjoern Hoehrmann

**Gregor Kofler** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

humeniuc meinte:

The list of the ones who uses, and consider Prototype or jQuery is
good coded is long... very long.
Some famous users:

And I suppose equally groundbreaking when it comes to web authoring.

Apple(http://www.apple.com/) uses Prototype

The website is HTML 4 *Transitional* - still issues several warnings.
YSlow rates it "F". Flexible layouts? Never heard of these.

Google code (http://code.google.com/) uses jQuery

More or less the same. Can't find jQuery in the scripts list, perhaps it
is included in another one.

NASA(http://www.nasa.gov/) uses Prototype

As another one with pointed ears would have put it: "Fascinatin g".
Proprietary doctype. 48 warnings. Again: Layouting from the last century.
Starts with:

<script type="text/javascript">
/**
* Browser Detect Class (sic!)
*/
function detectBrowserCl ass(modern){
var nBrowser = navigator.appNa me;
var nVersion = navigator.appVe rsion;
var nAgent = navigator.userA gent;
this.version;
this.browser;
this.os;
this.modern = (typeof modern == 'object') == true ? modern:0;
if(nVersion.ind exOf('Windows') !=-1){
this.os = 'win';
}else{
this.os = (nVersion.index Of('Macintosh') !=-1) == true ? 'mac':'other';
}

Those guys definitely know, what they're doing... Apart from that
they've added around 400kB of various JS libraries. Seems as if
prototype isn't capable of anything.

CNN (betaversion http://beta.cnn.com/) uses Prototype

Super slow loading - about 50% of the 630kB payload is eaten up by JS
files...

I think PointedEars is wrong. If he could do better than jQuery,
Prototype, or YUI, maybe he could make examples of his 'great' work.

He frequently posts links to his "work". Anyway, I suppose since Richard
Cornford, Douglas Crockford, Randy Webb and others also question the
quality of these libraries frequently, they're clueless ignorants, too.

Gregor

--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

VK · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

On Apr 17, 9:32 pm, Gregor Kofler <use...@gregork ofler.atwrote:

Apple(http://www.apple.com/) uses Prototype

>
The website is HTML 4 *Transitional* - still issues several warnings.

So what? HTML 4 Transitional is the only usable doctype so far - until
HTML 5 will finally arrive. HTML 4 Strict is missing some vital
features like target attribute for links and iframe. Moreover HTML 4
Strict puts IE6 into W3C box model and it doesn't understand box-
sizing: border-box to switch it back to normal. So while IE6 is still
in consideration and while HTML 5 is not ready, HTML 4 Transitional is
the only one you can really work with.

Flexible layouts? Never heard of these.

Nor me. At least not a single one that could be trusted. The choice is
very simple here: do you want flexible (liquid) layout or do you want
another contract work?

Moreover any modern browser now supports Ctrl+/- magnifier, so the
need of flexible (liquid) layouts - which was a workaround for IE4/5/6
display augmentation weakness - is mostly over.

Google code (http://code.google.com/) uses jQuery

>
More or less the same. Can't find jQuery in the scripts list, perhaps it
is included in another one.

Look at the http://code.google.com page source itself. It loads

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

http://code.google.com/js/codesite.pack.01312008.js

which is jQuery 1.2.3

NASA(http://www.nasa.gov/) uses Prototype

>
As another one with pointed ears would have put it: "Fascinatin g".
Proprietary doctype. 48 warnings. Again: Layouting from the last century.
Starts with:
>
<script type="text/javascript">
/**
* Browser Detect Class (sic!)
*/
function detectBrowserCl ass(modern){
var nBrowser = navigator.appNa me;
var nVersion = navigator.appVe rsion;
var nAgent = navigator.userA gent;
this.version;
this.browser;
this.os;
this.modern = (typeof modern == 'object') == true ? modern:0;
if(nVersion.ind exOf('Windows') !=-1){
this.os = 'win';}else{
>
this.os = (nVersion.index Of('Macintosh') !=-1) == true ? 'mac':'other';
>
}
>
Those guys definitely know, what they're doing... Apart from that
they've added around 400kB of various JS libraries. Seems as if
prototype isn't capable of anything.

NASA is a US governmental unit, their site is under FOIA and ADA
rules. Whatever they had to be done to not be sued they had to do. If
you are a US citizen - or you know one to help you - contact NASA at
http://www.nasa.gov/help/contact/index.html showing where and how the
site accessibility or usability is broken for you.

CNN (betaversionhtt p://beta.cnn.com/) uses Prototype

>
Super slow loading - about 50% of the 630kB payload is eaten up by JS
files...

It takes 3sec on my 4Mb/sec downstream DSL for the initial page
display where the download itself takes 0.39sec You may want to
consider switching from Dial-Up to something more speedy ;-)

**humeniuc** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

Yours is an "appeal to authority" fallacy, BTW.
I am not an authority at all. I am just a developer. But I think I
have the right to an opinon. Prototype helped me in developement and
other found a help in jQuery.

"They all have made the wrong design decision."
From this afirmation, I could say you are with "appeal to authority".
If you sad that they made wrong descisions, show us some good
decision. Where did they made wrong decisions?
Invitation: post here some links of your works, so anybody could see
good code, better than Prototype or jQuery.
Could you, please?
---------------------

Gregor, I only wanted to point that many sites uses that libraryes.
Google code have an "/js/codesite.pack.0 1312008.js" -- minified
version of jQuery

He frequently posts links to his "work".

I haven't seen any work of this person, I will search deeply in his
archive, but until now all that I saw was a lot of sarcasm and acid
remarks, but maibe PointedEars is a great programmer, in which case
wee should see some great code or some urls with that work from
him. :) (eventualy....)

All my best

**Gregor Kofler** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

humeniuc meinte:

Gregor, I only wanted to point that many sites uses that libraryes.
Google code have an "/js/codesite.pack.0 1312008.js" -- minified
version of jQuery

That's what I meant with "included in another one".

>He frequently posts links to his "work".

>
I haven't seen any work of this person, I will search deeply in his
archive, but until now all that I saw was a lot of sarcasm and acid
remarks, but maibe PointedEars is a great programmer, in which case
wee should see some great code or some urls with that work from
him. :) (eventualy....)

The discussion about the "quality" of jQuery et al pops up frequently.

Anyway, as I noted: Thomas is not the only one. You can search for
previous threads on this topic. You can search for the other names (and
their work; David Mark comes to my mind, too). You know how to use
search engines.

Anyway, the point that somebody has to show off his own work before
being allowed to critize others work, is a poor one. You don't have to
be a chef to rate something as tasty or not.

Gregor

--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

**humeniuc** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

Anyway, the point that somebody has to show off his own work before

being allowed to critize others work, is a poor one. You don't have to
be a chef to rate something as tasty or not.

I agree with you. I exagerated a little here, but i was a little
iritated about Tomas atitude and his acid posts, not only in this
topic.
I reached his site, I see that he is a good programmer, but his
atitude ....

about jQuery quality, can't make a statement, I have coleagues who use
it and are happy with it.
I prefer Prototype. I don't know what programing rules broke Prototype
developers (if you have some links, discutions, please share), but
works for me.

Sorry if I offended someone, and happy programming. In pure
Javascript, Prototype, jQuery, YUI or what suits :)

Good day to all.

**Gregor Kofler** · Jun 27 '08, 07:08 PM

Re: to learn jQuery if already using prototype

humeniuc meinte:

I agree with you. I exagerated a little here, but i was a little
iritated about Tomas atitude and his acid posts, not only in this
topic.
I reached his site, I see that he is a good programmer, but his
atitude ....
>
about jQuery quality, can't make a statement, I have coleagues who use
it and are happy with it.
I prefer Prototype. I don't know what programing rules broke Prototype
developers (if you have some links, discutions, please share), but
works for me.

Perhaps this one:
<http://groups.google.a t/group/comp.lang.javas cript/browse_frm/thread/2072e63631688fc 4/d63033d712a89e0 2>

Gregor

--
http://photo.gregorkofler.at ::: Landschafts- und Reisefotografie
http://web.gregorkofler.com ::: meine JS-Spielwiese
http://www.image2d.com ::: Bildagentur für den alpinen Raum

to learn jQuery if already using prototype

to learn jQuery if already using prototype

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