submit form...created with php

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  • MJ

    #16
    Re: submit form...created with php

    [color=blue][color=green]
    > >Actual research. Over 99% of users use Javascript compatible browsers.[/color]
    >
    > Rubbish, possibly the majority of browsers in the world are not script
    > enabled (the ones shipped with the majority of mobile phones) Of
    > course they're rarely used, especially on sites that TheCounter uses.[/color]

    Hmmm, somebody can't read. What does that say up there? "99% of users USE
    Javascript compatible browsers". Not the majority of browsers in the world
    are script enabled. Who cares if the majority of cell phone browsers don't
    support Javascript. The majority of cell phone browsers are NEVER used.
    [color=blue][color=green]
    > > If
    > >TheCounter.c om is reporting 5%, more than 4% of that is people who have
    > >Javascript turned off.[/color]
    >
    > Right... and they use statistically representative sample because?
    >[color=green][color=darkred]
    > >> Not if it's a commercial site. Then it's the competition's luck. Or
    > >> the ADA (or similar other-nationality legislation) litigation lawyers'
    > >> luck[/color]
    > >
    > >At this time web sites are not required to conform to the ADA, although a
    > >few people have brought court cases, nobody has won yet. Even if the ADA
    > >did apply[/color]
    >
    > Remember he said or similar other nationality.[/color]

    International lawsuits regarding accessibility are going to be EXTREMELY
    rare if they ever happen at all and they are extremely hard for the
    plaintiff to win unless you actively market to the specific country that the
    unhappy visitor is in.
    [color=blue][color=green]
    > > Redesigning a site to ADA standards would be too costly and
    > >take too many man hours for many commercial sites.[/color]
    >
    > Ooops! Unfortunately that defence didn't work in SOCOG-Maguire and
    > won't elsewhere, simply because it's patently not true, and there are
    > of lots of genuine experts capable of standing up in court and saying
    > it.[/color]

    Now who's talking rubbish. For every "genuine expert" that says one thing
    there's another "genuine expert" who says the complete opposite. It all
    depends on what your web site offers. Interactive, multimedia rich sites
    can be next to impossible to conform to such accessibility standards. If
    the site is mostly text based content, then sure, making it accessible is
    much easier. It also depends on the size of the site.
    [color=blue][color=green]
    > > Losing less than 1% of my visitors to a competitor's site
    > >doesn't bother me, because I'm gaining exponentially more customers by
    > >having a much better site than my competitors.[/color]
    >
    > Except of course, he chose to employe competent techniques, and his
    > site not only works without javascript, but is also more visible to
    > google, and works for all his customers.[/color]

    I have no problem with my visibility in Google (I rank higher than the
    majority of my competitors) or any other search engines. The competitors'
    sites may have been created with "competent techniques" as defined by a 7
    year old document, but their sites are static, uninteresting, horribly
    designed, and not very useful. That's not just my opinion. I have heard it
    many, many times from people who have migrated to my business. My
    competitors are losing customers because they hasn't updated their sites to
    what today's customers want. My business is booming while several of my
    competitors have gone under. Since adding more interactive features with
    Javascript, Flash, etc. my numbers have spiked even more.

    By the way, you act as if I said that my sites are 100% javascript. They
    are still accessible by non-javascript enabled browsers, but some features
    might not be completely functional as they were intended. I use Javascript
    mostly for client-side form validation which is then run through server-side
    validation as well. Menus have rollovers that work fine with non-javascript
    browsers. I test my sites thoroughly with many different browsers.

    So, go ahead and follow your 7 year old W3C HTML standards as strictly as
    you can. I'm sure you have it all printed out, nicely bound, in a
    protective sleeve, and under your pillow. You are obviously a follower,
    while others of us choose to drive. Those who drive tend to get ahead while
    others play catch-up. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a ton of web
    customers to assist.


    Comment

    • Jim Ley

      #17
      Re: submit form...created with php

      On Mon, 31 May 2004 10:02:32 -0700, "MJ" <no_spam@thank. you> wrote:
      [color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
      >> >At this time web sites are not required to conform to the ADA, although a
      >> >few people have brought court cases, nobody has won yet. Even if the ADA
      >> >did apply[/color]
      >>
      >> Remember he said or similar other nationality.[/color]
      >
      >Internationa l lawsuits regarding accessibility are going to be EXTREMELY
      >rare if they ever happen at all and they are extremely hard for the
      >plaintiff to win unless you actively market to the specific country that the
      >unhappy visitor is in.[/color]

      This is an international group, do not give legal advice based on your
      regional prejudices, if you're going to give advice saying "use
      javascript" the ADA doesn't apply (even though you later concede it
      does) then preface this with "if in the USA"
      [color=blue][color=green]
      >> Ooops! Unfortunately that defence didn't work in SOCOG-Maguire and
      >> won't elsewhere, simply because it's patently not true, and there are
      >> of lots of genuine experts capable of standing up in court and saying
      >> it.[/color]
      >
      >Now who's talking rubbish. For every "genuine expert" that says one thing
      >there's another "genuine expert" who says the complete opposite.[/color]

      Unlikely - and remember you're defending this in a court, with a poor
      blind kid in the dock, and persuasive sounding experts (and the cheap
      to do, will be standing up for free, you'll be paying your experts
      lots of cash to be there)
      [color=blue]
      > Interactive, multimedia rich sites
      >can be next to impossible to conform to such accessibility standards.[/color]

      Of course they can, look if you're going to talk about accessibility
      standards, _please_ learn about them, captioning a 3 hour video is not
      reasonable accommodation, but loads of other stuff is.
      [color=blue]
      >I have no problem with my visibility in Google (I rank higher than the
      >majority of my competitors) or any other search engines.[/color]

      URL, if you're so proud?

      Jim.
      --
      comp.lang.javas cript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

      Comment

      • Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

        #18
        Re: submit form...created with php

        MJ wrote:

        Who wrote that? Please provide proper
        attribution as recommended in RFC 1855.
        vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvv[color=blue][color=green]
        >> So you are creating invalid HTML and/or create forms that are useless for
        >> users without client-side J(ava)Script and will malfunction for some with
        >> client-side J(ava)Script (as the "action" is either not changed or not
        >> changed fast enough).
        >> [...][/color]
        >
        > It's only invalid HTML under outdated W3C standards written 7 years ago.[/color]

        This is utter nonsense and you know that.
        [color=blue]
        > All versions from the past four years of the most popular browsers (IE,
        > Netscape, Opera, Mozilla) support doing this.[/color]

        If so, what about all the others?
        [color=blue]
        > I have never heard of any sort of "malfunctio n" on the client side.[/color]

        That does not mean there is none. Do you really expect every annoyed
        visitor/customer to complain explicitely? They tell their friends,
        colleagues and family that this site is junk and you have not only
        one, but probably more customers/visitors less without knowing it.
        [color=blue]
        > I know several extremely high traffic web sites that use similar functions.[/color]

        So people should eat sh*t instead because a billion flies cannot be wrong?
        [color=blue]
        > Who doesn't have client-side Javascript these days?[/color]

        I sometimes have. Surprised?

        But you do have read that it does not need to work (as supposed) even if
        J(ava)Script is present and enabled, don't you? It is a DOM and timing
        problem discussed several times before. To know of problems and to ignore
        them anyway is not a behavior I would expect from a competent author.
        [color=blue]
        > [unfounded assumptions about who uses what][/color]

        That's ridiculous. But, after all, what to expect from a OjE user with
        a faked From ...


        PointedEars

        Comment

        • Dr John Stockton

          #19
          Re: submit form...created with php

          JRS: In article <r7t0hiwi.fsf@h otpop.com>, seen in
          news:comp.lang. javascript, Lasse Reichstein Nielsen <lrn@hotpop.com >
          posted at Mon, 31 May 2004 14:37:33 :
          [color=blue]
          > After all, the most important part
          >of a page *is* the content.[/color]

          But the really most important property, IMHO, is that the page should
          not jam or crash any browser or its operating system.

          There is an accessibility tester that does that to my machine. And, on
          a newer machine, it by default produces a large table in tiny writing
          with the error reports buried deep therein. Should an accessibility
          tester be accessible?

          --
          © John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon. co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4 ©
          <URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/> Jim Ley's FAQ for news:comp.lang. javascript
          <URL:http://www.merlyn.demo n.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
          <URL:http://www.merlyn.demo n.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.

          Comment

          • Dr John Stockton

            #20
            Re: submit form...created with php

            JRS: In article <40BB8F80.80304 04@PointedEars. de>, seen in
            news:comp.lang. javascript, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
            <PointedEars@nu rfuerspam.de> posted at Mon, 31 May 2004 22:03:12 :
            [color=blue]
            >Who wrote that? Please provide proper
            >attribution as recommended in RFC 1855.
            >vvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvv[/color]

            To which part of RFC1855 do you refer?

            I have here FYI28/RFC1855 dated October 1955; if you are referring to
            any other version (AIUI, there will be none), then you have been hoisted
            by your own petard.

            The only reference to attribution therein is specifically for Mail, and
            does not describe "proper attribution".

            Please verify references *before* giving them.




            Son-of-RFC1036 (1994) does refer to "attributio n lines" containing more
            than just a name. Note the implication that more than one line may be
            needed.

            A draft RFC by C H Lindsey ( a well-known News expert), dated August
            2002, envisages a line containing name, E-address, newsgroup, Message-
            ID, date, and time; and that it may be folded. It is called draft-ietf-
            usefor-article-08.txt

            Therefore, your customary tedious insistence on minimal attributions is
            contrary to recent thinking.

            --
            © John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon. co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME ©
            Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
            Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demo n.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
            No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

            Comment

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