open source?

[Peter Kirk]

Hi there

I know there is a lot of "open source" software written in java. But is the
language itself "open source"? Is there an open source java compiler (and/or
ide) (is eclipse a compiler or just an ide)?

Thanks,
Peter

[Oliver Wong]

Re: open source?


"Peter Kirk" <xdzgor@hotmail .com> wrote in message
news:443109f2$0 $177$edfadb0f@d read11.news.tel e.dk...[color=blue]
> Hi there
>
> I know there is a lot of "open source" software written in java. But is
> the language itself "open source"? Is there an open source java compiler
> (and/or ide) (is eclipse a compiler or just an ide)?[/color]

As for the language itself, there is some debate. The source code for
almost everything Java related from Sun is available, though you have to
agree to some fairly restrictive licenses to see the source. Thus the
language can be said to be "open source, but not free".

You can compile Java files from within Eclipse, though perhaps it uses
Sun's javac in the background occasionally. Otherwise, there do exist open
source stand alone Java compilers. A quick google search for the Sable
projects (SableCC, SableVM, etc.) will probably turn up something.

- Oliver

[Edmond Dantes]

Re: open source?

Oliver Wong wrote:

>
"Peter Kirk" <xdzgor@hotmail .comwrote in message
news:443109f2$0 $177$edfadb0f@d read11.news.tel e.dk...

>Hi there
>>
>I know there is a lot of "open source" software written in java. But is
>the language itself "open source"? Is there an open source java compiler
>(and/or ide) (is eclipse a compiler or just an ide)?

>
As for the language itself, there is some debate. The source code for
almost everything Java related from Sun is available, though you have to
agree to some fairly restrictive licenses to see the source. Thus the
language can be said to be "open source, but not free".
>
You can compile Java files from within Eclipse, though perhaps it uses
Sun's javac in the background occasionally. Otherwise, there do exist open
source stand alone Java compilers. A quick google search for the Sable
projects (SableCC, SableVM, etc.) will probably turn up something.
>
- Oliver

Java itself is NOT opensource. It is not considered *free* software. Would
be nice if it were, though.

I used to be a top Java programmer, but these days I see little need to use
Java. It's become overly complex for most things, and represents a very
steep learning curve.

PHP, Python, and Perl *are* FOSS. I actually like Python better than Java.
There are things you can do in Python that is simply not possible in Java,
like lambda functions, for instance.

The only reason to do anything in Java nowadays, as I see it, is that the
corporate whigs wish it. For server-side stuff, PHP is clearly superior.
And for client-side, Flash may be a better choice. I see less and less Java
being used in the browser these days. A pity, really. But AJAX has come
along and eaten much of what you'd want to use Java for there.

Well, let this not be the beginning of a nasty flame war. But perhaps some
of you can tell this old Java vet what *clear* advantages Java has over the
many -- and free -- alternatives.

--
-- Edmond Dantes
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[Lew]

Re: open source?

Edmond Dantes wrote:

Java itself is NOT opensource. It is not considered *free* software. Would
be nice if it were, though.

Java itself is a language, and has no source.

Sun's implementation of Java is now open source.

I used to be a top Java programmer, but these days I see little need to use
Java. It's become overly complex for most things, and represents a very
steep learning curve.

Your opinion. Mine differs.

PHP, Python, and Perl *are* FOSS. I actually like Python better than Java.
There are things you can do in Python that is simply not possible in Java,
like lambda functions, for instance.

Ooh! Lamda functions!

Everyone trots these out like they are actually needed. There are some cases
where they make a notational convenience, but as to being absolutely essential
to enterprise programming, well, I doubt it. For most purposes one shouldn't
even use reflection.

The only reason to do anything in Java nowadays, as I see it, is that the
corporate whigs wish it. For server-side stuff, PHP is clearly superior.

"Clearly"? "superior"?

Even if you and I were to agree on a definition of "superior for server-side
stuff", I don't think the issue is so very clear-cut.

And for client-side, Flash may be a better choice. I see less and less Java
being used in the browser these days. A pity, really. But AJAX has come
along and eaten much of what you'd want to use Java for there.

Flash? Really? For all client-side operations?

I guess except for its security flaws and lack of overt support for
general-purpose programming, and, oh, yes, the fact that it is not free as in
beer or speech, and that Adobe themselves suggest that

'Flash was created to make small, streamable, vector-based files for web
delivery. This is the usage addressed by the bulk of the documentation, and it
is where Flash performs best. Flash can also be used for nonstandard purposes,
such as CD authoring, desktop publishing, stand-alone application building,
and other uses. While you can do these things, it's important to ask yourself,
"Is this program designed to do what I am attempting? Is there a better
program for this use, should this one fail?"'

and that it also requires a plugin, you're right.

Well, let this not be the beginning of a nasty flame war. But perhaps some
of you can tell this old Java vet what *clear* advantages Java has over the
many -- and free -- alternatives.

The many *other* free alternatives. Java has always been free "as in beer",
and as Oliver pointed out, has always had free "as in speech" alternatives,
even before Sun jumped on the open-source bandwagon.

- Lew