PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

[Ed prochak]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released - now OT if not originally

Jonathan Leffler <jleffler@earth link.net> wrote in message news:<rqT_b.845 6$aT1.5985@news read1.news.pas. earthlink.net>. ..[color=blue]
> Nonsense wrote:
>[color=green]
> > SPAM[/color]
>
> In comp.databases. informix, your posting was fine. I suspect the same
> was true of comp.databases. ibm-db2, but would defer to the denizens of
> that group if there is disagreement.
>
> It appears that your posting to comp.databases. oracle.server and
> comp.databases. oracle.misc was misguided under the rules of those
> groups. In future, post to comp.databases. oracle.marketpl ace - simply
> to avoid the barrage of negative emails. I agree that it seems
> unnecessarily hostile - maybe they simply aren't attuned to open source.[/color]

Jon,
being "attuned to open source" has nothing to do with scolding posters
of spam.
Look at the motivations and actions and you'll see that.

And as I mentioned elsewhere, announcing PEAR DBMS in the oracle
marketplace group is likely off topic too. It would be equivalent to
posting ads for DB/2 in the oracle marketplace group.

There are charters that define the topic areas for groups in the main
groups. It may be time for all of us to reread them and see what
belongs and what doesn't.

ed

[Ed prochak]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hot pop.com> wrote in message news:<uwu69g7c4 .fsf@standardan dpoors.com>...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, damorgan@x.wash ington.edu wrote:
>[color=green]
> > All SPAM is bad spam. I don't care if you are giving it away
> > for free. I don't care if you personally show up, install it,
> > configure it train on it, and then give me a check for $50: It
> > is still spam.[/color]
>
> I'm on the fence on this one. What is different from what this
> guy posted and what Jonathan Lewis posts every month?[/color]

Let's see,
Jonathan posted only in one group at a time (I did not find any
multiposts.)
His Ads were ORACLE related and posted in ORACLE groups

This guy posted in multiple discussion groups, none related to his
product announcement.
None of the groups were .announce, .forsale or .marketplace.
[color=blue]
>
> Sure, Jonathan is a great contributor, and well respected, but he
> is "advertisin g" a site. Is it so different, or is every
> posting's "Spam rating" to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.
> I would never call Jonathan's postings spam, but I also have a
> hard time truly distinquishing that from the original posting in
> this thread.
>[/color]
Now I think we did discuss Jonathan's posts and the preferred place
for them is still the marketplace group. But his posts in the other
ORACLE groups have been tolerated since he does CONTRIBUTE to those
groups. Has the OP,
Analysis&Soluti ons (info@analysisa ndsolutions.com ) contributed
anything here?

Well a google search in c.d.oracle.* shows only 4 posts by that email,
one is the original PEAR advert, the other three were all Questions
about date formatting. So I conclude that he contributes NOTHING to
comp.databases. oracle.*

What he contributes to open source movement is a separate issue.

And I think I am consistent here. I would chatise the Pope if he
posted his newest Encyclical in the oracle group, because it would be
off topic, even if the tile of the encyclical was something like "St.
John: ORACLE of the New testament".
[color=blue]
> About a year ago, I had embarked on building an open source Oracle
> extension to Emacs to allow for dynamic query building within
> Emacs by interacting with metadata from Oracle. I never finished
> it, but had I actually published it to the Open source community,
> I certainly would have let people in this group know. Would I
> have been chastised for that?[/color]

Galen, you are also well respected in these groups. But I think you
answered your own question. It would have been an ORACLE related
product. Judging from you past posts, I would expect that, even if you
posted an advert in all the oracle groups, you would NOT post it in
c.d.db2 or c.d.postgresql
I think you are too intelligent to do that.

So the view I follow can be summarized as
newsgroups are not anything-goes chat rooms.
newsgroups have individual cultures
newsgroups ar TOPIC related, so not all messages are welcomed

hth,
ed

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released - now OT if not originally

Ed prochak wrote:
[color=blue]
> Jonathan Leffler <jleffler@earth link.net> wrote in message
> news:<rqT_b.845 6$aT1.5985@news read1.news.pas. earthlink.net>. ..
>
> Jon,[/color]

Jon? Jon!?

Into the bunkers quickly everyone!

--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche

[SkidMark]

MARKED FOR POOP Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released ED PROCHAK

MARKED FOR POOP

Ed,

We had no choice but to mark your post for poop. There was just
too much soil to avoid it, and, well, we had no choice. As we
indicated to Daniel Morgan, you can appeal our decision after
30 days. Just get us that pic of you and your clean diaper.

Some of the things we found in your soil sample:
* Complete misunderstandin gs of what PEAR is
* Statements that had no point or were completely off-track
* Statements that indicated a possible link to mental health issues
such as either low IQ or mental retardation
* Statements filled with inaccuracies

Please take a moment to review your postings and resubmit them
without the errors and we think you'll get out of the poop
quickly.

-IPP-

"Ed prochak" <ed.prochak@mag icinterface.com > wrote in message news:4b5394b2.0 402271156.6c2dd ec7@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hot pop.com> wrote in message news:<uwu69g7c4 .fsf@standardan dpoors.com>...[color=green]
> > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, damorgan@x.wash ington.edu wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > All SPAM is bad spam. I don't care if you are giving it away
> > > for free. I don't care if you personally show up, install it,
> > > configure it train on it, and then give me a check for $50: It
> > > is still spam.[/color]
> >
> > I'm on the fence on this one. What is different from what this
> > guy posted and what Jonathan Lewis posts every month?[/color]
>
> Let's see,
> Jonathan posted only in one group at a time (I did not find any
> multiposts.)
> His Ads were ORACLE related and posted in ORACLE groups
>
> This guy posted in multiple discussion groups, none related to his
> product announcement.
> None of the groups were .announce, .forsale or .marketplace.
>[color=green]
> >
> > Sure, Jonathan is a great contributor, and well respected, but he
> > is "advertisin g" a site. Is it so different, or is every
> > posting's "Spam rating" to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.
> > I would never call Jonathan's postings spam, but I also have a
> > hard time truly distinquishing that from the original posting in
> > this thread.
> >[/color]
> Now I think we did discuss Jonathan's posts and the preferred place
> for them is still the marketplace group. But his posts in the other
> ORACLE groups have been tolerated since he does CONTRIBUTE to those
> groups. Has the OP,
> Analysis&Soluti ons (info@analysisa ndsolutions.com ) contributed
> anything here?
>
> Well a google search in c.d.oracle.* shows only 4 posts by that email,
> one is the original PEAR advert, the other three were all Questions
> about date formatting. So I conclude that he contributes NOTHING to
> comp.databases. oracle.*
>
> What he contributes to open source movement is a separate issue.
>
> And I think I am consistent here. I would chatise the Pope if he
> posted his newest Encyclical in the oracle group, because it would be
> off topic, even if the tile of the encyclical was something like "St.
> John: ORACLE of the New testament".
>[color=green]
> > About a year ago, I had embarked on building an open source Oracle
> > extension to Emacs to allow for dynamic query building within
> > Emacs by interacting with metadata from Oracle. I never finished
> > it, but had I actually published it to the Open source community,
> > I certainly would have let people in this group know. Would I
> > have been chastised for that?[/color]
>
> Galen, you are also well respected in these groups. But I think you
> answered your own question. It would have been an ORACLE related
> product. Judging from you past posts, I would expect that, even if you
> posted an advert in all the oracle groups, you would NOT post it in
> c.d.db2 or c.d.postgresql
> I think you are too intelligent to do that.
>
> So the view I follow can be summarized as
> newsgroups are not anything-goes chat rooms.
> newsgroups have individual cultures
> newsgroups ar TOPIC related, so not all messages are welcomed
>
> hth,
> ed[/color]

[Ed Avis]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

ed.prochak@magi cinterface.com (Ed prochak) writes:

[PEAR DB]
[color=blue]
>This guy posted in multiple discussion groups, none related to his
>product.[/color]

The program (not 'product' - it is not for sale) works with DB2,
Informix and Oracle among other RDBMSes.

I couldn't find the charter for cd.ibm-db2, but I have checked those
for .informix and .oracle.misc and both of those groups appear related
to the program.
[color=blue]
>None of the groups were .announce, .forsale or .marketplace.[/color]

..announce is a fair point, if there were an .announce group that
should probably be used instead. But there isn't.

..forsale is not appropriate because the program is not for sale.
..marketplace is not appropriate because it is not a commercial
announcement. (Again, I say this based on reading the charter for the
..oracle.market place group.)
[color=blue]
>Now I think we did discuss Jonathan's posts and the preferred place
>for them is still the marketplace group. But his posts in the other
>ORACLE groups have been tolerated since he does CONTRIBUTE to those
>groups. Has the OP, Analysis&Soluti ons
>(info@analysis andsolutions.co m) contributed anything here?[/color]

I think you should just the article, not the poster.

Is the article about PEAR DB ontopic for the group? (It is related to
the database systems in question.) Is it prohibited by the charter or
by general Usenet rules against commercial announcements? (It is
non-commercial and unconditionally free software, so I think it is
allowed.)
[color=blue]
>Well a google search in c.d.oracle.* shows only 4 posts by that
>email, one is the original PEAR advert, the other three were all
>Questions about date formatting. So I conclude that he contributes
>NOTHING to comp.databases. oracle.*[/color]

If he has posted a helpful announcement about PEAR DB, and that
program is related to Oracle, then he has contributed something.

But again, judge each article on its merits, don't just the poster.

--
Ed Avis <ed@membled.com >

[Galen Boyer]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

On 27 Feb 2004, ed.prochak@magi cinterface.com wrote:[color=blue]
> Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hot pop.com> wrote in message
> news:<uwu69g7c4 .fsf@standardan dpoors.com>...[color=green]
>> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, damorgan@x.wash ington.edu wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > All SPAM is bad spam. I don't care if you are giving it away
>> > for free. I don't care if you personally show up, install
>> > it, configure it train on it, and then give me a check for
>> > $50: It is still spam.[/color]
>>
>> I'm on the fence on this one. What is different from what
>> this guy posted and what Jonathan Lewis posts every month?[/color]
>
> Let's see,
> Jonathan posted only in one group at a time (I did not find any
> multiposts.)
> His Ads were ORACLE related and posted in ORACLE groups[/color]

Yes. Jonathan's monthly postings where he talks about the FAQ
aren't considered spam but they do very much promote a website.
They actually promote people leaving the newsgroup to work on
that site (or at least they did). Of course, the sole purpose of
the work on this website is to help out this group and Oracle
professionals in general, but I'm conveniently leaving this out
for sake of discussion. ;-)
[color=blue]
> This guy posted in multiple discussion groups, none related to
> his product announcement. None of the groups were .announce,
> .forsale or .marketplace.[/color]

This is the main issue. Not that he was trying to make money.
How could he have been. His issue is that he posted to anything
and everything database related. My debate is with the first
flavor of these. I definitely was annoyed by the plethora of
newsgroups he decided to multi-post to.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Sure, Jonathan is a great contributor, and well respected, but
>> he is "advertisin g" a site. Is it so different, or is every
>> posting's "Spam rating" to be analyzed on a case-by-case
>> basis. I would never call Jonathan's postings spam, but I
>> also have a hard time truly distinquishing that from the
>> original posting in this thread.
>>[/color]
> Now I think we did discuss Jonathan's posts and the preferred
> place for them is still the marketplace group. But his posts in
> the other ORACLE groups have been tolerated since he does
> CONTRIBUTE to those groups. Has the OP, Analysis&Soluti ons
> (info@analysisa ndsolutions.com ) contributed anything here?
>
> Well a google search in c.d.oracle.* shows only 4 posts by that
> email, one is the original PEAR advert, the other three were
> all Questions about date formatting. So I conclude that he
> contributes NOTHING to comp.databases. oracle.*[/color]

Well. This is where I still have the question. What if someone
posts alot and offers alot of help but they also attach a little
URL showing the book they have. Is this so different than
someone just posting a URL? Tom Kyte used to be a regular
contributor here and will be again, I'm sure, but it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that he does this almost as
advertisement. This wouldn't bother me one bit and I quite
appreciate the idea. I bought Tom's book as well as Jonathan's
book because of the great help I saw others getting (as well as
my own personal help). As far as I was concerned, I almost
"owed" it to them. I also purchased any of the books from the
free software society that I might have occasion to read. Didn't
need to, cause I read it for free on my computer, but I use Emacs
so much, I felt I "owed" it to them.

Sure, we all do this newsgroup thing out of the goodness of our
hearts and the genuine love of the technology we are working
with, but I also will have on my resume a little snippet like,
"active contributor to such and such group". I do this so
someone might go look me up and judge for themselves whether I
could fit in on a particular team. Aren't I being financially
motivated to post? Might I have a hidden agenda? Well, actually
it has a very positive affect. Because I know people can look me
up, I try to stay as professional as possible. Even in the
patriots newsgroups. :-)
[color=blue]
> What he contributes to open source movement is a separate
> issue.
>
> And I think I am consistent here. I would chatise the Pope if
> he posted his newest Encyclical in the oracle group, because it
> would be off topic, even if the tile of the encyclical was
> something like "St. John: ORACLE of the New testament".
>[color=green]
>> About a year ago, I had embarked on building an open source
>> Oracle extension to Emacs to allow for dynamic query building
>> within Emacs by interacting with metadata from Oracle. I
>> never finished it, but had I actually published it to the Open
>> source community, I certainly would have let people in this
>> group know. Would I have been chastised for that?[/color]
>
> Galen, you are also well respected in these groups. But I think
> you answered your own question. It would have been an ORACLE
> related product. Judging from you past posts, I would expect
> that, even if you posted an advert in all the oracle groups,
> you would NOT post it in c.d.db2 or c.d.postgresql I think you
> are too intelligent to do that.[/color]

Well, thanks, and yes, the OP totally errored by multi-posting.
I also think he chose groups that had no reason to see the
announcement, like this Oracle group. Leaves a large doubt in my
mind about the quality of his open source product as well.

I do know that, personally, I'm not interested in the OP's
product for the main reason that the poster was so oblivious to
newsgroup charters. But, I disagree with the accusations of his
financial motives that many posters were posting.

--
Galen Boyer

[Ed prochak]

Re: MARKED FOR POOP Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released ED PROCHAK

"SkidMark" <pooppatrol@int ernetpoop.org> wrote in message news:<TrY%b.598 22$dL2.35714@fe 18.usenetserver .com>...[color=blue]
> MARKED FOR POOP
>
> Ed,
>
> We had no choice but to mark your post for poop. There was just
> too much soil to avoid it, and, well, we had no choice. As we
> indicated to Daniel Morgan, you can appeal our decision after
> 30 days. Just get us that pic of you and your clean diaper.
>
> Some of the things we found in your soil sample:
> * Complete misunderstandin gs of what PEAR is
> * Statements that had no point or were completely off-track
> * Statements that indicated a possible link to mental health issues
> such as either low IQ or mental retardation
> * Statements filled with inaccuracies
>
> Please take a moment to review your postings and resubmit them
> without the errors and we think you'll get out of the poop
> quickly.
>
> -IPP-[/color]

Thank you, Skid, for a slightly amusing, though uninformative posting.

If you had anything to say, I wish you would say it. meanwhile, I'll
return to the discussion in c.d.oracle.misc where others are making
some sense, even some that disagree with Daniel and I. When you are
ready to contribute something useful or informative to the group come
on back.


Ed.

[Ed prochak]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

Ed Avis <ed@membled.com > wrote in message news:<l1oerjjzg e.fsf@budvar.fu ture-i.net>...[color=blue]
> ed.prochak@magi cinterface.com (Ed prochak) writes:
>
> [PEAR DB]
>[/color]
[whether appropriate for oracle.misc discussed in a thread in just
..misc]
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >None of the groups were .announce, .forsale or .marketplace.[/color]
>
> .announce is a fair point, if there were an .announce group that
> should probably be used instead. But there isn't.[/color]

Depends.
there's a comp.software.s hareware.announ ce
I thought there was a comp.software.a nnounce but I'm wrong.
there's a php.general
[color=blue]
>
> .forsale is not appropriate because the program is not for sale.[/color]
point granted here.
[color=blue]
> .marketplace is not appropriate because it is not a commercial
> announcement. (Again, I say this based on reading the charter for the
> .oracle.marketp lace group.)[/color]
This is where we disagree. It LOOKS commercial to me.[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >Now I think we did discuss Jonathan's posts and the preferred place
> >for them is still the marketplace group. But his posts in the other
> >ORACLE groups have been tolerated since he does CONTRIBUTE to those
> >groups. Has the OP, Analysis&Soluti ons
> >(info@analysis andsolutions.co m) contributed anything here?[/color]
>
> I think you should just the article, not the poster.[/color]

My comment was in the context of why we jumped on this poster but not
those of someone else. In that context I stand by my remark. (note
this is an oracle.misc issue)[color=blue]
>
> Is the article about PEAR DB ontopic for the group?[/color]
discussed elsewhere in an oracle.misc thread
[color=blue][color=green]
> >Well a google search in c.d.oracle.* shows only 4 posts by that
> >email, one is the original PEAR advert, the other three were all
> >Questions about date formatting. So I conclude that he contributes
> >NOTHING to comp.databases. oracle.*[/color]
>
> If he has posted a helpful announcement about PEAR DB, and that
> program is related to Oracle, then he has contributed something.
>
> But again, judge each article on its merits, don't just the poster.[/color]

And IMHO, that posting did not have any merits deserving to be in
oracle.misc
ed

[Ed prochak]

Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released

Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hot pop.com> wrote in message news:<ubrnhyi08 .fsf@standardan dpoors.com>...[color=blue]
> On 27 Feb 2004, ed.prochak@magi cinterface.com wrote:[color=green]
> > Galen Boyer <galenboyer@hot pop.com> wrote in message
> > news:<uwu69g7c4 .fsf@standardan dpoors.com>...[color=darkred]
> >> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, damorgan@x.wash ington.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> > All SPAM is bad spam. I don't care if you are giving it away
> >> > for free. I don't care if you personally show up, install
> >> > it, configure it train on it, and then give me a check for
> >> > $50: It is still spam.
> >>
> >> I'm on the fence on this one. What is different from what
> >> this guy posted and what Jonathan Lewis posts every month?[/color]
> >[/color][/color]
[][color=blue]
>
> Well, thanks, and yes, the OP totally errored by multi-posting.
> I also think he chose groups that had no reason to see the
> announcement, like this Oracle group. Leaves a large doubt in my
> mind about the quality of his open source product as well.
>
> I do know that, personally, I'm not interested in the OP's
> product for the main reason that the poster was so oblivious to
> newsgroup charters. But, I disagree with the accusations of his
> financial motives that many posters were posting.[/color]

I think my point is, and has been, the announcement is off topic for
at least the oracle.misc group, because it is a product announcement.
Such announcements might fit in the db2 and sybase groups. I don't
read those groups much. But seems to not belong here in oracle.misc

Whether he is or is not making money from it is, IMO, irrelevant.

Have a great day.
Ed

[SkidMark]

Re: MARKED FOR POOP Re: PEAR DB 1.6.0 has been released ED PROCHAK

Ed,

Thanks so much for allowing me to be a part of your world man, you rock!
Do you have any extra ganga you could spare?

-Skid-

"I've said what I've said, and now it's all this"
--John Lennon on his comments about the Beatles being "bigger that Jesus Christ".

"Ed prochak" <ed.prochak@mag icinterface.com > wrote in message news:4b5394b2.0 403021101.32e70 59c@posting.goo gle.com...[color=blue]
> "SkidMark" <pooppatrol@int ernetpoop.org> wrote in message news:<TrY%b.598 22$dL2.35714@fe 18.usenetserver .com>...[color=green]
> > MARKED FOR POOP
> >
> > Ed,
> >
> > We had no choice but to mark your post for poop. There was just
> > too much soil to avoid it, and, well, we had no choice. As we
> > indicated to Daniel Morgan, you can appeal our decision after
> > 30 days. Just get us that pic of you and your clean diaper.
> >
> > Some of the things we found in your soil sample:
> > * Complete misunderstandin gs of what PEAR is
> > * Statements that had no point or were completely off-track
> > * Statements that indicated a possible link to mental health issues
> > such as either low IQ or mental retardation
> > * Statements filled with inaccuracies
> >
> > Please take a moment to review your postings and resubmit them
> > without the errors and we think you'll get out of the poop
> > quickly.
> >
> > -IPP-[/color]
>
> Thank you, Skid, for a slightly amusing, though uninformative posting.
>
> If you had anything to say, I wish you would say it. meanwhile, I'll
> return to the discussion in c.d.oracle.misc where others are making
> some sense, even some that disagree with Daniel and I. When you are
> ready to contribute something useful or informative to the group come
> on back.
>
>
> Ed.[/color]