Java or C++?

[James Kanze]

Re: Java or C++?

On 20 avr, 02:00, Matthias Buelow <m...@incubus.d ewrote:

s0s...@gmail.co m wrote:

I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

Both of course. Both are important contemporary languages that
a professional programmer ought to have at least some basic
knowledge of.

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a
Python programmer? Which one will educate me the best?

Any Lisp dialect.

That's actually a good point. If the goal is learning, a
language which gets you out of the OO/procedural mold will
probably teach you a lot more than a language which is, when all
is said and done, pretty similar to the one you already know.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:james.kan ze@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientier ter Datenverarbeitu ng
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34

[noagbodjivictor@gmail.com]

Re: Java or C++?

On Apr 19, 8:26 am, s0s...@gmail.co m wrote:

I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
>
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?

Are you sure you've been programming Python for years now? I believe
that Python is similar and better than Java, and the natural language
that a person would switch to after python is C/C++ (because Python
modules are extended by C).

So, No, you've not been programming Python for years. And you should
stop saying it.

[Krice]

Re: Java or C++?

On 20 huhti, 06:29, Razii <whatever1...@h otmail.comwrote :

You can malke the class final and make everything static.

I guess that is not the same thing, just doesn't sound good.
Does java even have pointers?

[s0suk3@gmail.com]

Re: Java or C++?

On Apr 20, 11:10 am, "noagbodjivic.. .@gmail.com"
<noagbodjivic.. .@gmail.comwrot e:

On Apr 19, 8:26 am, s0s...@gmail.co m wrote:
>

I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

>

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?

>
Are you sure you've been programming Python for years now? I believe
that Python is similar and better than Java, and the natural language
that a person would switch to after python is C/C++ (because Python
modules are extended by C).
>
So, No, you've not been programming Python for years. And you should
stop saying it.

Yes, I have.

[Crazy c]

Re: Java or C++?

On Apr 19, 7:26 am, s0s...@gmail.co m wrote:

I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.
>
Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer? Which one will educate me the best?

To get a good handle on Java, C++ is the best foundation. Java is a
very friendly C++. Yes, sometimes C++ is like oral surgery, but once
you somewhat get it, Java is a cake walk, so to speak.

[Pete Becker]

Re: Java or C++?

On 2008-04-20 12:28:55 -0400, Krice <paulkp@mbnet.f isaid:

On 20 huhti, 06:29, Razii <whatever1...@h otmail.comwrote :

>You can malke the class final and make everything static.

>
I guess that is not the same thing, just doesn't sound good.
Does java even have pointers?

No, but it has object of type NullPointerExce ption.

--
Pete
Roundhouse Consulting, Ltd. (www.versatilecoding.com) Author of "The
Standard C++ Library Extensions: a Tutorial and Reference
(www.petebecker.com/tr1book)

[Razii]

Re: Java or C++?

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:23:58 -0700, "Chris Thomasson"
<cristom@comcas t.netwrote:

>No. However, you can add them if your want:

>fairly simple.

Would compiler be able to optimize this, like JIT compiler? i.e if
the compiler is sure that there won't be array out of bound, the check
is never done?

[Ian Collins]

Re: Java or C++?

Razii wrote:

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:23:58 -0700, "Chris Thomasson"
<cristom@comcas t.netwrote:
>

>No. However, you can add them if your want:

>

>fairly simple.

>
Would compiler be able to optimize this, like JIT compiler? i.e if
the compiler is sure that there won't be array out of bound, the check
is never done?

Yes.

--
Ian Collins.

[Lambda]

Re: Java or C++?

On Apr 19, 10:32 pm, s0s...@gmail.co m wrote:

On Apr 19, 8:59 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <al...@start.no wrote:
>
>
>

* s0s...@gmail.co m:

>

I've been programming Python for a couple of years now. Now I'm
looking to move on to either C++ or Java, but I'm not sure which.

>

Which one do you think will be a better transition for a Python
programmer?

>

Define "better".

>

Going to Java will be easier.

>

Which one will educate me the best?

>

Define "best".

>

Cheers, & hth.,

>

- Alf

>
Well, I mean "better" and "best" in a very general sense, whichever
sense you want to interpret it on. More useful, more fun, more
educational, etc; or, as you already suggested, easier. Thanks.

I recommend learn C++ and Java all.
If you learn C++ first, you'll find Java is much easier to learn.
C++ is more fun, more educational, as you can handle details.

Java has more full library than C++, such as networking, GUI, web.
But C++'s container and algorithm libraries are more powerful than
Java's.

I'd like to learn Python next. You know why?
C++, Java and Python are Google's favorite languages. :)

Stephen Hsu

[Krice]

Re: Java or C++?

On 20 huhti, 23:14, Razii <whatever1...@h otmail.comwrote :

Does C++ even have array index out of bounds check?

For programmers that make simple mistakes?

[xtrigger303@gmail.com]

Re: Java or C++?

Hi to all,

I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.

I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)

All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

My understanding is that (correct me if I'm wrong ):

- Almost all today's audio technologies/apps (like Cubase, Logic, VST
and Core Audio stuff )
are written in C and C++. For an awesome audio app that is written
mainly in C++ check out
Propellerheads Reason.

- 90% of todays video-game engines are written in C or C++. I'm
totally sure about Unreal Engine.
Plus I've seen source code for Quake and others. Never seen any Java
code for POPULAR GAMES.

- My personal favourite Metal Gear Solid for PS2 had its engine
written in C. I'm sure about MGS2,
cannot be sure about the others, but...

So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

Please PROs enlighten a lost soul... :-)

Regards to all,
Francesco

P.S.
All this said I've to say that some Razii's thread are very
interesting...

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Re: Java or C++?

xtrigger303@gma il.com writes:

Hi to all,
>
I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.
>
I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)
>
All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.

So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.

[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmer s".


Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.


--
__Pascal Bourguignon__

[xtrigger303@gmail.com]

Re: Java or C++?

On 21 Apr, 11:44, p...@informatim ago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:

xtrigger...@gma il.com writes:

Hi to all,

>

I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.

>

I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)

>

All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

>
Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.

VST plug-ins were built by sub-classing a C++ class (this a few years
ago,
don't know now)
Core Audio on the Mac is a C framework, with C++ wrappers
Programming on the Mac is mostly Obj-C (these days)

>

So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

>
Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.
>

I don't know if an Audio Sequencer is a "real-time" app, for sure has
to complete
all its rendering functions in a given amount of time (forget about
buffering...)
The faster the code is, the better, isnt'it? For example, the amount
of audio plug-ins
that can work "simultaneously " is affected by the "speed" of the code.
If I were able to build Reverbs in Visual Basic I'm pretty sure that I
could run fewer of them at the same time, compared to ones written in
Java, C, C++
or whatever... Giving for granted that "equivalent " Basic interpreted
code
is slower... Is it?

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.
>

[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

>
McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

I thought that Java was owned by Sun, while C and C++ are standardized
and
steered by independent committees...

>
Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmer s".
>

So great games and apps are made by forcing sub-intelligent people
to work in ways they do not like and that are proven obsolete?

Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.
>

I care about what the pros use because it's the only criteria I have
to
choose the tool of the trade. If all the apps, technologies,
literature, examples,etc...
in a certain genre are made in C or C++, why would I choose something
else?

Actually I have fun with C++, probably I would have fun also with Java
or 0Caml. The problem is the TIME i have at my disposal.

Anyway thanks for the answer. One more thing: if you were in charge of
bulilding
the next crushing video-game engine for the PS3, what language would
you choose?

Ciao,
Francesco

[xtrigger303@gmail.com]

Re: Java or C++?

On 21 Apr, 11:44, p...@informatim ago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon)
wrote:

xtrigger...@gma il.com writes:

Hi to all,

>

I've to say that all these threads C++ vs the world are very
interesting.

>

I'am an amateur programmer, I do small MIDI and audio apps just for
fun,
mainly for my electronic music productions( always just for fun, no
talent at all, sigh... ;-)

>

All the statements made in recent threads make me think that all the
hours spent in
learning how to program in C and C++ were useless.

>
Not entirely. But to have fun developping small MIDI and audio
application, indeed I wouldn't consider C or C++ indicated.

VST plug-ins were built by sub-classing a C++ class (this a few years
ago,
don't know now)
Core Audio on the Mac is a C framework, with C++ wrappers
Programming on the Mac is mostly Obj-C (these days)

>

So out of frustration I would like to ask to Java, 0Caml or whatever
else supporters:
How many POPULAR COMMERCIAL APPS in "real-time" fields like audio,
video or video-games
are made in Java or whatever else. I ask about these kind of apps
because they're the ones
I'm mostly interested in and because I would think they're the ones
where speed is of great importance.

>
Remember that real-time is not the same as fast. Real-time means that
the time needed to do some computation is bounded, the bound is known,
and is less than the period in which it must be computed.
>

I don't know if an Audio Sequencer is a "real-time" app, for sure has
to complete
all its rendering functions in a given amount of time (forget about
buffering...)
The faster the code is, the better, isnt'it? For example, the amount
of audio plug-ins
that can work "simultaneously " is affected by the "speed" of the code.
If I were able to build Reverbs in Visual Basic I'm pretty sure that I
could run fewer of them at the same time, compared to ones written in
Java, C, C++
or whatever... Giving for granted that "equivalent " Basic interpreted
code
is slower... Is it?

For MIDI applications, that means that you need to compute one byte
every 1/3125 second = 320 microsecond. There's time to execute more
than 320000 instructions on a modern processor to compute that byte.
And a note on command is three bytes, meaning that you have more than
one millisecond to compute the next note on or note off... An eternity
on current processors.
>

[...]
So if EVERYTHING can be done more productively in Java or 0Caml ( or
whatever ) and the final result should
be even faster (??) than the C or C++ equivalent, WHY all pros in the
above mentioned genres are still using
obsolete languages?

>
McDonald vs. La Tour d'Argent.

I thought that Java was owned by Sun, while C and C++ are standardized
and
steered by independent committees...

>
Also, most often, it's not programmers who get to choose the
programming language, but the managers. And what matters to the
manager is not that programming be efficient or fun, but that they be
able to hire easily (ie. cheaply) a lot of monkeys^W "programmer s".
>

So great games and apps are made by forcing sub-intelligent people
to work in ways they do not like and that are proven obsolete?

Anyways, you're in the game for fun, not for money, so why should you
care what the so called "pro" do or don't? Choose a programming
language in which you don't spend time on trivial technicalities, and
with which you have fun programming your little applications.
>

I care about what the pros use because it's the only criteria I have
to
choose the tool of the trade. If all the apps, technologies,
literature, examples,etc...
in a certain genre are made in C or C++, why would I choose something
else?

Actually I have fun with C++, probably I would have fun also with Java
or 0Caml. The problem is the TIME i have at my disposal.

Anyway thanks for the answer. One more thing: if you were in charge of
bulilding
the next crushing video-game engine for the PS3, what language would
you choose?

Ciao,
Francesco

[Matthias Buelow]

Re: Java or C++?

Lambda wrote:

C++, Java and Python are Google's favorite languages. :)

Google? Hmm.. rings a bell... Aren't they those Usenet spammers?