Quick questions...

[Mark McIntyre]

Re: Quick questions...

On 29 Oct 2005 18:15:28 -0700, in comp.lang.c ,
earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net wrote:
[color=blue]
>...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
>of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?[/color]

I learned basic, pascal and Fortran first, in that order. Though I
admit to stopping using Fortran as soon as I could...
[color=blue]
>Would you suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?[/color]

No idea, never played with realbasic. Pascal is a good language to
start with though.

Or if you're on a Mac why not install gcc and play with that and a
good C learning book?

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >

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[Randy Howard]

Re: Quick questions...

Thad Smith wrote
(in article
<43643f2e$0$273 10$892e0abb@aut h.newsreader.oc tanews.com>):
[color=blue][color=green]
>> What course
>> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?[/color][/color]

I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Would you
>> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
>> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
>> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
>> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.[/color]
>
> I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac.[/color]

OS X is basically BSD UNIX with a nicer than usual window
manager on top of it. Any language available open source is
pretty much available. Apart from Microsoft proprietary
(despite marketing claims to the contrary) language is available
on it. Many come pre-installed or on the distribution DVD.
[color=blue]
> I suggest asking for
> suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
> comp.lang.c, consider C![/color]

True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
first language, unless you have a really good teacher. Back in
the day, you started out in assembler first, to understand the
basics of the system, but that doesn't seem to be much in form
any more, and most people /never/ learn the low-level details,
and admittedly don't need to learn them.

For a first language, you might consider something like Ruby,
which is useful for a lot of purposes, relatively clean
syntactically, object-oriented (in a more rational manner than
most) and has a very active development community right now.

--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

[vishnuvyas]

Re: Quick questions...


earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net wrote:[color=blue]
> ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.[/color]

I started out with logo, moved onto gwbasic, pascal, and then C. But
even then, C is much trickier than it seems. Its a lot easier to 'shoot
yourself in the foot', and can get hard if really don't have a kick-ass
debugger.

So I would suggest something like scheme/python to get started with,
and if you are doing scheme get Dr.Scheme/PLTScheme, it has a decent
IDE, and comes with a bunch of mature libraries to get you doing some
nice stuff.

Though that might teach you what programming in C is like the way a
flight simulator teaches you what flying a f-14 is about. But when
doing C, you would have to worry about a lot more (things that you
shouldn't be worrying about without a very good reason, like say memory
management).

But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..
So it ain't a bed of roses, but if you like the challenge, there ain't
anything that gives such a high as seeing your program working right
(and it lasts till you figure out that evantual bug, or worse, some one
else points it out).

So, with an ominous 'best of luck'.. welcome to programming.

Cheers
Vishnu

[Walter Roberson]

Re: Quick questions...

In article <1130707900.048 712.58940@g14g2 000cwa.googlegr oups.com>,
vishnuvyas <vishnuvyas@gma il.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
>programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
>declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
>no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
>compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..[/color]

[OT]

I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
monstrosity ;-)


[It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
together with "portabilit y".]
--
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman

[Skarmander]

Re: Quick questions...

Walter Roberson wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <1130707900.048 712.58940@g14g2 000cwa.googlegr oups.com>,
> vishnuvyas <vishnuvyas@gma il.com> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
>>programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
>>declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
>>no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
>>compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..[/color]
>
>
> [OT]
>
> I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
> monstrosity ;-)
>
>
> [It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
> then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
> Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
> the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
> together with "portabilit y".][/color]

"With gratitude to my parents, Mother Teresa and the Pope."

Googling for "serial comma" gets you the details of the sordid debate
for and against, of which, as obscure points go, there is of course
plenty. :-)

S.

[Greg Comeau]

Re: Quick questions...

In article <0001HW.BF8A89E 6006FB4B7F04075 50@news.verizon .net>,
Randy Howard <randyhoward@FO OverizonBAR.net > wrote:[color=blue]
>Thad Smith wrote
>(in article
><43643f2e$0$27 310$892e0abb@au th.newsreader.o ctanews.com>):
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> What course
>>> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?[/color][/color]
>
>I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
>age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
>probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
>Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.[/color]

IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.
[color=blue]
>...
>True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
>first language, unless you have a really good teacher.[/color]

IMO, the problem is that this is true of any language.
Obviously some more than others, but often a rock and
a hard place through which to legitamately choose something
truly superior for first language, whatever that means or
should mean anyway.
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[vishnuvyas]

Re: Quick questions...


Walter Roberson wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <1130707900.048 712.58940@g14g2 000cwa.googlegr oups.com>,
> vishnuvyas <vishnuvyas@gma il.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
> >programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
> >declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
> >no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
> >compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..[/color]
>
> [OT]
>
> I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
> monstrosity ;-)[/color]

Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
bits what type should I actually use).
[color=blue]
> If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman[/color]

[Walter Roberson]

[OT] Re: Quick questions...

In article <1130714099.206 152.190130@z14g 2000cwz.googleg roups.com>,
vishnuvyas <vishnuvyas@gma il.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Walter Roberson wrote:[color=green]
>> In article <1130707900.048 712.58940@g14g2 000cwa.googlegr oups.com>,
>> vishnuvyas <vishnuvyas@gma il.com> wrote:[/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>> >Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
>> >compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..[/color][/color][/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
>> monstrosity ;-)[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>Well, I din't mean friends in the C++ sense if thats what you mean.
>What I meant was you have to worry about things like portability and
>things associated with portability (things like when i exactly need 32
>bits what type should I actually use).[/color]

Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
another meaning completely.

As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
"... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous. It's the
stereotypical geek anti-socialization effect -- that the more technoid
you become, the fewer friends you make.

The sentance you wanted to write should have an 'and' before
'portability', but there is debate over which of these two to use:

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations and portability and friends..

versus

Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, and portability and friends..
--
If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman

[Erik de Castro Lopo]

Re: Quick questions...

earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net wrote:[color=blue]
>
> ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?[/color]

Before C I had programmed in BASIC, Pascal, Modula2 and
assembler.
[color=blue]
> What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?[/color]

I did a Baechelor of Engineering degree in Computer
Engineering.
[color=blue]
> Would you
> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?[/color]

Probably no. The BASIC family of langugaes are not
highy reguarded in the programing world.

Python is at least as good a learning language as
BASIC and it will prevent you learning some of
the bad habits that BASIC may teach you.

Erik
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Erik de Castro Lopo
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
Open Source and Free Software means that you never sacrifice quality
of the code for meeting deadlines set up by people not participating
directly in the software development process.

[Randy Howard]

Re: Quick questions...

Greg Comeau wrote
(in article <dk3kj1$hcs$1@p anix1.panix.com >):
[color=blue]
> In article <0001HW.BF8A89E 6006FB4B7F04075 50@news.verizon .net>,
> Randy Howard <randyhoward@FO OverizonBAR.net > wrote:[color=green]
>> Thad Smith wrote
>> (in article
>> <43643f2e$0$273 10$892e0abb@aut h.newsreader.oc tanews.com>):
>>[color=darkred]
>>>> What course
>>>> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?[/color]
>>
>> I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
>> age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
>> probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
>> Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.[/color]
>
> IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
> either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.[/color]

You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
sure I follow what you intended to say.


--
Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

[Greg Comeau]

Re: Quick questions...

In article <0001HW.BF8B6FE F00A59FDBF04075 50@news.verizon .net>,
Randy Howard <randyhoward@FO OverizonBAR.net > wrote:[color=blue]
>Greg Comeau wrote
>(in article <dk3kj1$hcs$1@p anix1.panix.com >):[color=green]
>> In article <0001HW.BF8A89E 6006FB4B7F04075 50@news.verizon .net>,
>> Randy Howard <randyhoward@FO OverizonBAR.net > wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> Thad Smith wrote
>>> (in article <43643f2e$0$273 10$892e0abb@aut h.newsreader.oc tanews.com>):
>>>>> What course
>>>>> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?
>>> I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
>>> age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
>>> probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
>>> Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.[/color]
>>
>> IMO, the problem is that you don't not want something like that
>> either, given whatever the flavor of the month is today.[/color]
>
>You can you decode all the extra negatives in there? I'm not
>sure I follow what you intended to say.[/color]

You said something won't be of much use and that we probably
don't want to do something. I'm saying it might be of use,
and that we might want to.
--
Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

[vishnuvyas]

Re: Quick questions...


Walter Roberson wrote:[color=blue]
> Heh, no, I knew what you -meant-... I was just remarking OT-ishly
> on a bit of grammatical trivia according to which your sentance has
> another meaning completely.[/color]
Thanks for the grammar check.
[color=blue]
> As written, your sentance was equivilent to,
> "... with monstrosities like friends, standards, compliance [...]"
> implying that as you develop a career in programming, those whom you
> have friendships with start to appear to become monsterous.[/color]

I guess the opposite is rather true, I do get 'You look scary' comments
after a 16hr hackathon ;-)

Cheers
Vishnu.

[Emmanuel Delahaye]

Re: Quick questions...

earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net a écrit :[color=blue]
> ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.[/color]

82-84 : BASIC (Apple II, Commodore, IBM-PC) (self-learning)
87 : Pascal (The Revelation !) (self-learning)
87 : ASM 86 (course), C (self-learning)
88 : C (course), HP BASIC (HP 9000) (job)
91 : ASM 51 (job)
93 : ASM 68k, some VB.. (job)
94 til now : C (job)

--
C is a sharp tool

[Das]

Re: Quick questions...


earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net wrote:[color=blue]
> ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.[/color]

Are You serious??? then discuss the pros and cons and field of
application then decide.

If you ask me how i started then, Well there were some stuffs we called
it HC(Home Computers BBC Micro), They have a BASIC Interpreter inside
the ROM. So it it infered i started with BASIC. Then To some other
BASICs e.g BASICA,GWBASIC. ..
Well Then to FORTRAN(My graduate course included it), Then to PASCAL,
Assembly-x86, C and then C++.

To your surprise i have forgotten all except C and some Assembly Stuff.
And For your information I am learning C and Assembly everyday.

[John B]

Re: Quick questions...

earthlinkmail@e arthlink.net wrote:[color=blue]
> ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.[/color]

If you want to be a programmer, the language you must learn first is
pseudo-code.

The secret of a good programmer is nothing to do with which language you
write your code in but everything to do with planning the program correctly,
understanding what the program is supposed to do and getting the logic
correct. Once you have written your program in pseudo-code then translate it
to whichever language you need to use for the customer that is paying your
wages.

--
John B