negative zeroes in program output?

[Elliot Marks]

Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing
that is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation
with doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that
does operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in
the result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0. (I know that
floating point arithmetic algorithms use positive and negative
zero but this is the first time I've seen negative zeroes in
program output.)

[Mark McIntyre]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:41:31 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Elliot Marks
<emarks@email.n et> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing
>that is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation
>with doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that
>does operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in
>the result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0.[/color]

Floating point is not exact. What mathematically might be zero is quite
likely to be 0 +/- some small amount. Your printf format string will then
round it and display as -0.0

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >


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[Elliot Marks]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

Mark McIntyre wrote:[color=blue]
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:41:31 GMT, in comp.lang.c , Elliot Marks
> <emarks@email.n et> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing
>>that is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation
>>with doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that
>>does operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in
>>the result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0.[/color]
>
>
> Floating point is not exact. What mathematically might be zero is quite
> likely to be 0 +/- some small amount. Your printf format string will then
> round it and display as -0.0
>[/color]
I cancelled the original post because this behaviour went away
after using a different compiler. Your answer makes good sense
though.

Thanks,
Elliot

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

Mark McIntyre wrote:
[color=blue]
> Elliot Marks wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing
>>that is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation
>>with doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that
>>does operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in
>>the result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0.[/color]
>
> Floating point is not exact. What mathematically might be zero
> is quite likely to be 0 +/- some small amount.
> Your printf format string will then round it and display as -0.0[/color]

No.
[color=blue]
> cat main.c[/color]
#include <stdio.h>

int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
double x = -0.0;
double y = +0.0;
fprintf(stdout, "%lf = x\n", x);
fprintf(stdout, "%lf = y\n", y);
if (x == y)
fprintf(stdout, "They are equal!\n");
return 0;
}
[color=blue]
> gcc -Wall -std=c99 -pedantic -o main main.c
> ./main[/color]
-0.000000 = x
0.000000 = y
They are equal!

A floating-point number has two representations for zero --
one positive and the other negative.

[pete]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Mark McIntyre wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Elliot Marks wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing
> >>that is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation
> >>with doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that
> >>does operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in
> >>the result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0.[/color]
> >
> > Floating point is not exact. What mathematically might be zero
> > is quite likely to be 0 +/- some small amount.
> > Your printf format string will then round it and display as -0.0[/color]
>
> No.[/color]

That's what I was thinking.
[color=blue]
> double x = -0.0;
> double y = +0.0;
> fprintf(stdout, "%lf = x\n", x);
> fprintf(stdout, "%lf = y\n", y);
> if (x == y)
> fprintf(stdout, "They are equal!\n");[/color]
[color=blue]
> -0.000000 = x
> 0.000000 = y
> They are equal!
>
> A floating-point number has two representations for zero --
> one positive and the other negative.[/color]

It's allowed to have two, but floating point representation
is implementation defined.

The '-' character output of your program
is also implementation defined, even on implementations that
have two representations for zero --
one positive and the other negative.

--
pete

[Keith Thompson]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

"E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisda le@jpl.nasa.gov > writes:[color=blue]
> Mark McIntyre wrote:[color=green]
> > Elliot Marks wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> Under what circumstances would a C program, containing nothing that
> >> is not standard C, prefix a zero result of a calculation with
> >> doubles with a minus sign? I have written a program that does
> >> operations on matrices. Some, but not all, of the zeroes in the
> >> result matrices are displayed by printf as -0.0.[/color]
> > Floating point is not exact. What mathematically might be zero
> > is quite likely to be 0 +/- some small amount. Your printf format
> > string will then round it and display as -0.0[/color]
>
> No.[/color]

Yes.
[color=blue][color=green]
> > cat main.c[/color]
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(int argc, char* argv[]) {
> double x = -0.0;
> double y = +0.0;
> fprintf(stdout, "%lf = x\n", x);
> fprintf(stdout, "%lf = y\n", y);
> if (x == y)
> fprintf(stdout, "They are equal!\n");
> return 0;
> }
>[color=green]
> > gcc -Wall -std=c99 -pedantic -o main main.c
> > ./main[/color]
> -0.000000 = x
> 0.000000 = y
> They are equal![/color]

Why do you use fprintf(stdout, ...) rather than printf(...)?

The correct format for type double is "%f". The "%lf" format is not
defined by the standard, so your first two fprintf calls invoke
undefined behavior.
[color=blue]
> A floating-point number has two representations for zero --
> one positive and the other negative.[/color]

That's true for many (most?) existing floating-point representations ,
but I don't think the C standard says anything about it. An
implementation for which the above program prints

0.000000 = x
0.000000 = y
They are equal!

would be conforming as far as I know.

But the following program:

#include <stdio.h>
int main(void)
{
double x = -1e-20;
double y = +1e-20;
printf("x = %lf\n", x);
printf("y = %lf\n", y);
printf(x == y ? "They're equal\n" : "They're not equal\n");
return 0;
}

produces the following output (in at least one implementation) :

x = -0.000000
y = 0.000000
They're not equal

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[pete]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

Keith Thompson wrote:
[color=blue]
> The correct format for type double is "%f".[/color]

Yes.
[color=blue]
> The "%lf" format is not defined by the standard,
> so your first two fprintf calls invoke
> undefined behavior.[/color]

Undefined in C89
Defined in C99


C89 last public draft:
4.9.6 Formatted input/output functions
4.9.6.1 The fprintf function

an optional l (ell) specifying that a following d , i , o ,
u , x , or X conversion specifier applies to a long int or unsigned
long int argument; an optional l specifying that a following n
conversion specifier applies to a pointer to a long int argument; or
an optional L specifying that a following e , E , f , g , or G
conversion specifier applies to a long double argument.
If an h , l ,
or L appears with any other conversion specifier, the behavior is
undefined.

N869
7.19.6.1 The fprintf function

l (ell) ... or has no effect on a following a,
A, e, E, f, F, g, or G conversion
specifier.

--
pete

[Joe Wright]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

Keith Thompson wrote:

[ snip ][color=blue]
>
> That's true for many (most?) existing floating-point representations ,
> but I don't think the C standard says anything about it. An
> implementation for which the above program prints
>
> 0.000000 = x
> 0.000000 = y
> They are equal!
>
> would be conforming as far as I know.
>
> But the following program:
>
> #include <stdio.h>
> int main(void)
> {
> double x = -1e-20;
> double y = +1e-20;
> printf("x = %lf\n", x);
> printf("y = %lf\n", y);
> printf(x == y ? "They're equal\n" : "They're not equal\n");
> return 0;
> }
>
> produces the following output (in at least one implementation) :
>
> x = -0.000000
> y = 0.000000
> They're not equal
>[/color]

That program, on my implementation (gcc 3.1) looks like..

C:\work\c\clc>k t
x = 0.000000
y = 0.000000
They're not equal

Negative zero is weird.

Also on my implementation, "%f" suffices for both double and long
double. "%lf" is allowed by C99 and accepted quietly by gcc but is
not defined.

--
Joe Wright mailto:joewwrig ht@comcast.net
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---

[Keith Thompson]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

pete <pfiland@mindsp ring.com> writes:[color=blue]
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>[color=green]
> > The correct format for type double is "%f".[/color]
>
> Yes.
>[color=green]
> > The "%lf" format is not defined by the standard,
> > so your first two fprintf calls invoke
> > undefined behavior.[/color]
>
> Undefined in C89
> Defined in C99[/color]
[snip][color=blue]
> N869
> 7.19.6.1 The fprintf function
>
> l (ell) ... or has no effect on a following a,
> A, e, E, f, F, g, or G conversion
> specifier.[/color]

You're right, I missed that. (It's also in the final C99 standard.)

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Dan Pop]

Re: negative zeroes in program output?

In <lnwu0wrbt8.fsf @nuthaus.mib.or g> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> writes:
[color=blue]
>pete <pfiland@mindsp ring.com> writes:[color=green]
>> Keith Thompson wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > The correct format for type double is "%f".[/color]
>>
>> Yes.
>>[color=darkred]
>> > The "%lf" format is not defined by the standard,
>> > so your first two fprintf calls invoke
>> > undefined behavior.[/color]
>>
>> Undefined in C89
>> Defined in C99[/color]
>[snip][color=green]
>> N869
>> 7.19.6.1 The fprintf function
>>
>> l (ell) ... or has no effect on a following a,
>> A, e, E, f, F, g, or G conversion
>> specifier.[/color]
>
>You're right, I missed that. (It's also in the final C99 standard.)[/color]

Official reason: to improve symmetry between scanf and printf.
Unofficial reason: far too much broken code used %lf in printf and
practically all implementors ignored the l in this context:

fangorn:~/tmp 573> gcc -Wall test.c
fangorn:~/tmp 574> gcc -pedantic -Wall test.c
test.c: In function `main':
test.c:5: warning: ISO C90 does not support the `%lf' printf format

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de