unsigned char *

[j0mbolar]

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
long dword = 0xff;

printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
return 0;
}

does the standard say this is legal?
if so or if not, what section?

[Emmanuel Delahaye]

Re: unsigned char *

In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:
[color=blue]
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(void)
> {
> long dword = 0xff;
>
> printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> return 0;
> }
>
> does the standard say this is legal?
> if so or if not, what section?
>[/color]

No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
int. The behaviour is undefined.

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
long dword = 0xff;

printf("%u\n", (unsigned) ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
return 0;
}

--
-ed- get my email here: http://marreduspam.com/ad672570
The C-language FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
C-reference: http://www.dinkumware.com/manuals/reader.aspx?lib=c99
FAQ de f.c.l.c : http://www.isty-info.uvsq.fr/~rumeau/fclc/

[Jack Klein]

Re: unsigned char *

On 29 Jun 2004 10:00:49 GMT, Emmanuel Delahaye <emdelYOURBRA@n oos.fr>
wrote in comp.lang.c:
[color=blue]
> In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:
>[color=green]
> > #include <stdio.h>
> >
> > int main(void)
> > {
> > long dword = 0xff;
> >
> > printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> > return 0;
> > }
> >
> > does the standard say this is legal?
> > if so or if not, what section?
> >[/color]
>
> No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
> int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]

An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
architectures. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
regularly.

So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.
[color=blue]
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(void)
> {
> long dword = 0xff;
>
> printf("%u\n", (unsigned) ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> return 0;
> }[/color]

Of course the above is much more portable.

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.l earn.c-c++

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html

[Jack Klein]

Re: unsigned char *

On 29 Jun 2004 02:27:50 -0700, j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote
in comp.lang.c:
[color=blue]
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(void)
> {
> long dword = 0xff;
>
> printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> return 0;
> }
>
> does the standard say this is legal?
> if so or if not, what section?[/color]

It is not legal except on platforms where sizeof(int) == 1, and there
are some of those but not in the desk top world.

In most common implementations , signed int can hold all possible
values of unsigned char, so the value is converted to signed int, not
unsigned int which the "%u" conversion specifier requires.

The C standard suggests that signed and unsigned integer types should
be acceptable substitutions for each other in function calls, but does
guarantee that this is so.

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.l earn.c-c++

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html

[Peter Nilsson]

Re: unsigned char *

"Jack Klein" <jackklein@spam cop.net> wrote in message
news:r6d4e01mqa 02tpmtno47fis1b 2c5v5nbb8@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On 29 Jun 2004 10:00:49 GMT, Emmanuel Delahaye <emdelYOURBRA@n oos.fr>
> wrote in comp.lang.c:
>[color=green]
> > In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > #include <stdio.h>
> > >
> > > int main(void)
> > > {
> > > long dword = 0xff;
> > >
> > > printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> > > return 0;
> > > }
> > >
> > > does the standard say this is legal?
> > > if so or if not, what section?
> > >[/color]
> >
> > No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
> > int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]
>
> An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,[/color]

Indeed.
[color=blue]
> but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1.[/color]

ITYM: _all_ where sizeof(int) == 1.

The precise criteria for promotion to unsigned int is, of course...

UCHAR_MAX > INT_MAX
[color=blue]
> There are such
> platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
> architectures. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
> regularly.
>
> So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
> I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.
>[color=green]
> > #include <stdio.h>
> >
> > int main(void)
> > {
> > long dword = 0xff;
> >
> > printf("%u\n", (unsigned) ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> > return 0;
> > }[/color]
>
> Of course the above is much more portable.[/color]

It's portable, but not very useful as is. The printed value is unspecified.

--
Peter

[Richard Delorme]

Re: unsigned char *

Jack Klein a écrit :
[color=blue][color=green]
>>No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
>>int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]
>
>
> An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
> but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
> platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
> architectures. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
> regularly.
>
> So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
> I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.[/color]

The lack of portability makes such a construct an undefined behaviour:

3.4.3

1 undefined behavior

behavior, upon use of a *nonportable* or erroneous program construct or
of erroneous data, for which this International Standard imposes no
requirements.

--
Richard

[j0mbolar]

Re: unsigned char *

Jack Klein <jackklein@spam cop.net> wrote in message news:<tpd4e05b4 86jiuh7974i8ias brtic7kul8@4ax. com>...[color=blue]
> On 29 Jun 2004 02:27:50 -0700, j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote
> in comp.lang.c:
>[color=green]
> > #include <stdio.h>
> >
> > int main(void)
> > {
> > long dword = 0xff;
> >
> > printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> > return 0;
> > }
> >
> > does the standard say this is legal?
> > if so or if not, what section?[/color]
>
> It is not legal except on platforms where sizeof(int) == 1, and there
> are some of those but not in the desk top world.
>
> In most common implementations , signed int can hold all possible
> values of unsigned char, so the value is converted to signed int, not
> unsigned int which the "%u" conversion specifier requires.
>
> The C standard suggests that signed and unsigned integer types should
> be acceptable substitutions for each other in function calls, but does
> guarantee that this is so.[/color]

well, I was more concerned with the
casting to unsigned char *

[Dan Pop]

Re: unsigned char *

In <r6d4e01mqa02tp mtno47fis1b2c5v 5nbb8@4ax.com> Jack Klein <jackklein@spam cop.net> writes:
[color=blue]
>On 29 Jun 2004 10:00:49 GMT, Emmanuel Delahaye <emdelYOURBRA@n oos.fr>
>wrote in comp.lang.c:
>[color=green]
>> In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > #include <stdio.h>
>> >
>> > int main(void)
>> > {
>> > long dword = 0xff;
>> >
>> > printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
>> > return 0;
>> > }
>> >
>> > does the standard say this is legal?
>> > if so or if not, what section?
>> >[/color]
>>
>> No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
>> int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]
>
>An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
>but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
>platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
>architecture s. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
>regularly.[/color]

Do they have *conforming* *hosted* implementations , to be relevant in the
context of Emmanuel's comments: the %u conversion specifier of printf?
[color=blue]
>So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
>I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.[/color]

If the implementation is not hosted, calling printf without defining it
invokes undefined behaviour, anyway. Anything the C standard says about
printf is irrelevant on such an implementation.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Dan Pop]

Re: unsigned char *

In <tpd4e05b486jiu h7974i8iasbrtic 7kul8@4ax.com> Jack Klein <jackklein@spam cop.net> writes:
[color=blue]
>On 29 Jun 2004 02:27:50 -0700, j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote
>in comp.lang.c:
>[color=green]
>> #include <stdio.h>
>>
>> int main(void)
>> {
>> long dword = 0xff;
>>
>> printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
>> return 0;
>> }
>>
>> does the standard say this is legal?
>> if so or if not, what section?[/color]
>
>It is not legal except on platforms where sizeof(int) == 1, and there
>are some of those but not in the desk top world.[/color]

Care to mention ONE conforming hosted implementation with sizeof(int) == 1
???

It would break tons of existing code that assumes that EOF is different
from any byte value:

while ((c = getc(fp)) != EOF) /* do whatever */ ;

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Dan Pop]

Re: unsigned char *

In <40e28f69$0$313 $7a628cd7@news. club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <abulmo@nospam. fr> writes:
[color=blue]
>Jack Klein a écrit :
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
>>>int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]
>>
>>
>> An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
>> but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
>> platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
>> architectures. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
>> regularly.
>>
>> So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
>> I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.[/color]
>
>The lack of portability makes such a construct an undefined behaviour:
>
>3.4.3
>
>1 undefined behavior
>
>behavior, upon use of a *nonportable* or erroneous program construct or
>of erroneous data, for which this International Standard imposes no
>requirements .[/color]

Nope, it's undefined behaviour *only* on implementations where the type
resulting from the integral promotions does not match the type expected
by the conversion specifier.

The correct statement is that the lack of portability prevents this
construct from being used in strictly conforming programs.

If you still don't get it, consider a simple example: 12345 * 3.
Undefined behaviour if INT_MAX == 32767, well defined behaviour otherwise.

And if you still don't get it: you cannot use the definition of undefined
behaviour to decide when a program invokes undefined behaviour. It is a
separate paragraph of the standard dealing with this issue:

2 If a ``shall'' or ``shall not'' requirement that appears outside
of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined
behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard
by the words ``undefined behavior'' or by the omission of any
explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in
emphasis among these three; they all describe ``behavior that
is undefined''.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Old Wolf]

Re: unsigned char *

Emmanuel Delahaye <emdelYOURBRA@n oos.fr> wrote:[color=blue]
> In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:
>[color=green]
> > #include <stdio.h>
> >
> > int main(void)
> > {
> > long dword = 0xff;
> >
> > printf("%u\n", ((unsigned char *)&dword)[0]);
> > return 0;
> > }
> >
> > does the standard say this is legal?
> > if so or if not, what section?[/color]
>
> No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
> int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]

If an unsigned char is converted to a signed int, it must be a
non-negative signed int. (otherwise it would have been converted
to unsigned int).

The standard says that non-negative signed ints must have the same
size, alignment and representation as unsigned ints. It can't be
a trap representation, or represent a different value. Therefore, as
far as a variadic function is concerned, it was passed a signed int.
Even the DS9000 could not go wrong here AFAICS, so shouldn't that
mean the behaviour is well-defined?

[Richard Delorme]

Re: unsigned char *

Dan Pop a écrit :[color=blue]
> In <40e28f69$0$313 $7a628cd7@news. club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <abulmo@nospam. fr> writes:
>
>[color=green]
>>Jack Klein a écrit :
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>>No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
>>>>int. The behaviour is undefined.
>>>
>>>
>>>An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
>>>but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
>>>platforms, mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
>>>architecture s. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
>>>regularly.
>>>
>>>So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
>>>I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.[/color]
>>
>>The lack of portability makes such a construct an undefined behaviour:
>>
>>3.4.3
>>
>>1 undefined behavior
>>
>>behavior, upon use of a *nonportable* or erroneous program construct or
>>of erroneous data, for which this International Standard imposes no
>>requirement s.[/color]
>
>
> Nope, it's undefined behaviour *only* on implementations where the type
> resulting from the integral promotions does not match the type expected
> by the conversion specifier.[/color]

I don't think so. Undefined behaviour stands from the Standard's point
of view, not from the implementation' s one. An implementation may define
a behaviour for what the standard leaves undefined.
[color=blue]
> The correct statement is that the lack of portability prevents this
> construct from being used in strictly conforming programs.[/color]

Do you mean the word "nonportabl e" in the definition of "undefined
behaviour" is not correct?

[color=blue]
> If you still don't get it, consider a simple example: 12345 * 3.
> Undefined behaviour if INT_MAX == 32767, well defined behaviour otherwise.[/color]

I know implementations where INT_MAX == 32767 and 12345 * 3 has a well
defined behaviour (the result is -28501); however, this behaviour has to
be found in the implementation documentation, not in the standard, that
do not specify the value of INT_MAX, neither define the behaviour of
12345 * 3 in case of overflow.
[color=blue]
> And if you still don't get it: you cannot use the definition of undefined
> behaviour to decide when a program invokes undefined behaviour.[/color]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^

I do not agree with this sentence. Undefined behaviour is a lack of
definition within the standard, not a property of a program. A program
may be erroneous in a way that seems too complicated for the Standard to
impose a particular behaviour for an implementation.
[color=blue]
> It is a
> separate paragraph of the standard dealing with this issue:
>
> 2 If a ``shall'' or ``shall not'' requirement that appears outside
> of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined
> behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard
> by the words ``undefined behavior'' or by the omission of any
> explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in
> emphasis among these three; they all describe ``behavior that
> is undefined''.[/color]


If you still don't think that undefined behaviour is a portability
issue, guess what is the title of the the annex J, where the undefined
behaviours are recapitulated in J.2.

--
Richard

[Dan Pop]

Re: unsigned char *

In <40e3475e$0$316 $7a628cd7@news. club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <abulmo@nospam. fr> writes:
[color=blue]
>Dan Pop a écrit :[color=green]
>> In <40e28f69$0$313 $7a628cd7@news. club-internet.fr> Richard Delorme <abulmo@nospam. fr> writes:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>Jack Klein a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>>>No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
>>>>>int. The behaviour is undefined.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>An unsigned char will be converted to signed int on many platforms,
>>>>but to unsigned int on some where sizeof(int) == 1. There are such
>>>>platforms , mostly Digital Signal Processors and some exotic RISC
>>>>architectur es. You may not have encountered them, but I work on them
>>>>regularly .
>>>>
>>>>So if the code is compiled on such a platform (such as the TI 2812 DSP
>>>>I am working on currently), the result is perfectly defined.
>>>
>>>The lack of portability makes such a construct an undefined behaviour:
>>>
>>>3.4.3
>>>
>>>1 undefined behavior
>>>
>>>behavior, upon use of a *nonportable* or erroneous program construct or
>>>of erroneous data, for which this International Standard imposes no
>>>requirements .[/color]
>>
>>
>> Nope, it's undefined behaviour *only* on implementations where the type
>> resulting from the integral promotions does not match the type expected
>> by the conversion specifier.[/color]
>
>I don't think so. Undefined behaviour stands from the Standard's point
>of view, not from the implementation' s one. An implementation may define
>a behaviour for what the standard leaves undefined.
>[color=green]
>> The correct statement is that the lack of portability prevents this
>> construct from being used in strictly conforming programs.[/color]
>
>Do you mean the word "nonportabl e" in the definition of "undefined
>behaviour" is not correct?[/color]

It is perfectly correct, it is your interpretation of it that is
incorrect. It is NOT enough for a bit of code to be non-portable to
invoke undefined behaviour, it must satisfy other conditions, clearly
documented in the standard, in the text I have quoted. Why is that so
difficult to understand for you?

Example of non-portable code that does not invoke undefined behaviour:

#include <stdio.h>

int foo(void) { puts("I am foo"); return 1; }
int bar(void) { puts("I am bar"); return 1; }
int main() { return foo() - bar(); }

This is clearly non-portable code, with unpredictable output, as it relies
on unspecified behaviour. Do you claim that it invokes undefined
behaviour? Or that the definition of undefined behaviour is broken?
[color=blue][color=green]
>> If you still don't get it, consider a simple example: 12345 * 3.
>> Undefined behaviour if INT_MAX == 32767, well defined behaviour otherwise.[/color]
>
>I know implementations where INT_MAX == 32767 and 12345 * 3 has a well
>defined behaviour (the result is -28501);[/color]

From the standard's point of view, this is undefined behaviour and, no
matter what the implementation defines/documents, nasal demons are still
allowed by the C standard.
[color=blue]
>however, this behaviour has to
>be found in the implementation documentation, not in the standard, that
>do not specify the value of INT_MAX, neither define the behaviour of
>12345 * 3 in case of overflow.[/color]

And, because it doesn't define it, from its point of view *anything* can
happen after 12345 * 3 is evaluated, the definition provided by the
implementation doesn't change the program status, as far as the C standard
is concerned.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> And if you still don't get it: you cannot use the definition of undefined
>> behaviour to decide when a program invokes undefined behaviour.[/color]
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>
>I do not agree with this sentence.[/color]

Then, you're a patent idiot. I have quoted you the exact chapter and
verse which specifies WHEN undefined behaviour is invoked. It is sheer
stupidity to invent other situations, based on the definition of undefined
behaviour.
[color=blue]
>Undefined behaviour is a lack of
>definition within the standard, not a property of a program.[/color]

Undefined behaviour cannot exist in the absence of a program. Furthermore
in some cases, it is the implementation that decides whether the program
invokes undefined behaviour or not, as in the example with 12345 * 3
(if the implementation defines INT_MAX as 32767, the attempt to evaluate
this expression *unconditionall y* invokes undefined behaviour, regardless
of what the documentation says).

Another example:

6 Any pointer type may be converted to an integer type. Except as
previously specified, the result is implementation-defined. If the
result cannot be represented in the integer type, the behavior
is undefined. The result need not be in the range of values of
any integer type.

According to your interpretation, this is undefined behaviour. Then, why
didn't the standard simply say:

6 Converting any pointer type to an integer type invokes undefined
behaviour.

??? What are all the other extra words for?
[color=blue]
>A program
>may be erroneous in a way that seems too complicated for the Standard to
>impose a particular behaviour for an implementation.[/color]

So what? If it matches any of the conditions listed in the text I have
quoted, it invokes undefined behavior. Otherwise, its behaviour is
unspecified, implementation-defined or well defined.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> It is a
>> separate paragraph of the standard dealing with this issue:
>>
>> 2 If a ``shall'' or ``shall not'' requirement that appears outside
>> of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined
>> behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard
>> by the words ``undefined behavior'' or by the omission of any
>> explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in
>> emphasis among these three; they all describe ``behavior that
>> is undefined''.[/color]
>
>If you still don't think that undefined behaviour is a portability
>issue, guess what is the title of the the annex J, where the undefined
>behaviours are recapitulated in J.2.[/color]

Your reasoning capabilities are severely damaged: undefined behaviour *is*
a portability issue, but this doesn't mean that *any* portability issue
is undefined behaviour. What about the *other* sections of appendix J?
Aren't they portability issues?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Dave Thompson]

Re: unsigned char *

On 30 Jun 2004 14:27:41 -0700, oldwolf@inspire .net.nz (Old Wolf)
wrote:
[color=blue]
> Emmanuel Delahaye <emdelYOURBRA@n oos.fr> wrote:[color=green]
> > In 'comp.lang.c', j0mbolar@engine er.com (j0mbolar) wrote:[/color][/color]
[ (punned) uchar passed to printf %u ][color=blue][color=green]
> > No. An unsigned char will be converted to an int, but "%u" wants an unsigned
> > int. The behaviour is undefined.[/color]
>
> If an unsigned char is converted to a signed int, it must be a
> non-negative signed int. (otherwise it would have been converted
> to unsigned int).
>
> The standard says that non-negative signed ints must have the same
> size, alignment and representation as unsigned ints. It can't be
> a trap representation, or represent a different value. Therefore, as
> far as a variadic function is concerned, it was passed a signed int.
> Even the DS9000 could not go wrong here AFAICS, so shouldn't that
> mean the behaviour is well-defined?[/color]

(Same representation only for values in the intersection of ranges,
but such a promoted value must be in the intersection. Same
representation is *nonnormatively *, in two footnotes, "meant to imply
interchangeabil ity as arguments ....".)

For a user-written variadic function, (necessarily) using va_arg, this
is guaranteed explicitly in C99, as are xchar*/void* and the same
cases for unprototyped functions. There have been at least two rounds
of discussion on c.s.c whether the va_arg guarantees apply to standard
library functions, which aren't required to be implemented in C; there
appears to be a majority, but not necessarily a consensus, that this
was expected, but it's not clear it was actually specified.

And for *printf in particular there is the more local and thus
presumably overriding requirement in 7.19.6.1p9:
If any argument is not the correct type for the corresponding
conversion specification, the behavior is undefined.

In practice it would be exceedingly unlikely, and unhelpful, for any
implementor to break this. But that's not a formal requirement.

- David.Thompson1 at worldnet.att.ne t