Freestanding Environment

[Vijay Kumar R Zanvar]

Hi clc,

I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.

--
"There's money in this case, Watson," he continued,
glancing out of the window, "if there is nothing else."
- A Scandal in Bohemia

[Martin Dickopp]

Re: Freestanding Environment

"Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
[color=blue]
> I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]

Cell phones, microwave ovens, washing machines, VCRs, DVD players...

Martin ( <-- that's my name, /not/ an example of a freestanding
environment)


--
,--. Martin Dickopp, Dresden, Germany ,= ,-_-. =.
/ ,- ) http://www.zero-based.org/ ((_/)o o(\_))
\ `-' `-'(. .)`-'
`-. Debian, a variant of the GNU operating system. \_/

[Christopher Benson-Manica]

Re: Freestanding Environment

Martin Dickopp <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> spoke thus:
[color=blue]
> Martin ( <-- that's my name, /not/ an example of a freestanding
> environment)[/color]

Well, you don't walk with a cane, do you? Then you're freestanding ;)

--
Christopher Benson-Manica | I *should* know what I'm talking about - if I
ataru(at)cybers pace.org | don't, I need to know. Flames welcome.

[Dan Pop]

Re: Freestanding Environment

In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
[color=blue]
>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]

Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.
Your computer's keyboard, your computer's hard disk, your computer's OS
(and very likely your computer's monitor and graphics card).

Practically any computing environment that is not under the control of an
operating system is a freestanding environment.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Martin Dickopp]

[OT] Re: Freestanding Environment

Christopher Benson-Manica <ataru@nospam.c yberspace.org> writes:
[color=blue]
> Martin Dickopp <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> spoke thus:
>[color=green]
>> Martin ( <-- that's my name, /not/ an example of a freestanding
>> environment)[/color]
>
> Well, you don't walk with a cane, do you?[/color]

Neither do I, nor does my name.
[color=blue]
> Then you're freestanding ;)[/color]

But I'm not an environment, and neither is my name.

It could be argued that my name is sometimes freestanding in the sense
that it is the only item in a paragraph of text (like in this posting).
However, that was /not/ the case in my previous posting, where my name
wasn't freestanding, but accompanied the statement that it isn't a
freestanding environment. ;)

Martin


--
,--. Martin Dickopp, Dresden, Germany ,= ,-_-. =.
/ ,- ) http://www.zero-based.org/ ((_/)o o(\_))
\ `-' `-'(. .)`-'
`-. Debian, a variant of the GNU operating system. \_/

[Eric Sosman]

Re: Freestanding Environment

Dan Pop wrote:[color=blue]
>
> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
>[color=green]
> >I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]
>
> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.
> Your computer's keyboard, your computer's hard disk, your computer's OS
> (and very likely your computer's monitor and graphics card).
>
> Practically any computing environment that is not under the control of an
> operating system is a freestanding environment.[/color]

.... and as a particular example, the operating system itself
is usually a freestanding environment.

--
Eric.Sosman@sun .com

[Dan Pop]

Re: Freestanding Environment

In <cunllmi3w1r.fs f@zero-based.org> Martin Dickopp <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> writes:
[color=blue]
>"Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
>[color=green]
>> I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]
>
>Cell phones, microwave ovens, washing machines, VCRs, DVD players...[/color]

Your favourite mistake at work again: microwave ovens and washing machines
need not be freestanding environments, for the simple reason that they
can be (and are) built without any embedded computer.

The first VCRs, too, but they are museum exhibits, by now :-)

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Martin Dickopp]

Re: Freestanding Environment

Dan.Pop@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:
[color=blue]
> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
>[color=green]
>>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]
>
> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.[/color]

Your favourite mistake at work again: high end microwave ovens and
washing machines need not be freestanding environments, for the simple
reason that they can be (and are) programmed in languages other than C
where the term "freestandi ng environment" isn't defined.

Martin


--
,--. Martin Dickopp, Dresden, Germany ,= ,-_-. =.
/ ,- ) http://www.zero-based.org/ ((_/)o o(\_))
\ `-' `-'(. .)`-'
`-. Debian, a variant of the GNU operating system. \_/

[Dan Pop]

Re: Freestanding Environment

In <4045F9A5.3687C 983@sun.com> Eric Sosman <Eric.Sosman@su n.com> writes:
[color=blue]
>Dan Pop wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]
>>
>> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.
>> Your computer's keyboard, your computer's hard disk, your computer's OS[/color][/color]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^[color=blue][color=green]
>> (and very likely your computer's monitor and graphics card).
>>
>> Practically any computing environment that is not under the control of an
>> operating system is a freestanding environment.[/color]
>
>... and as a particular example, the operating system itself
>is usually a freestanding environment.[/color]

Any particular point in repeating my own example?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Dan Pop]

Re: Freestanding Environment

In <cunr7w9eu2r.fs f@zero-based.org> Martin Dickopp <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> writes:
[color=blue]
>Dan.Pop@cern.c h (Dan Pop) writes:
>[color=green]
>> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.[/color]
>>
>> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.[/color]
>
>Your favourite mistake at work again: high end microwave ovens and
>washing machines need not be freestanding environments, for the simple
>reason that they can be (and are) programmed in languages other than C
>where the term "freestandi ng environment" isn't defined.[/color]

Freestanding environment is a general concept, that has precious little
to do with one programming language or another. Ditto for hosted
environment.

And an executable binary is an executable binary, regardless of the
language(s) it was written in, before being translated to an executable
binary.

Try engaging your brain next time!

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de

[Mike Wahler]

Re: [OT] Re: Freestanding Environment

"Martin Dickopp" <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> wrote in message
news:cunishm2f9 b.fsf_-_@zero-based.org...[color=blue]
> Christopher Benson-Manica <ataru@nospam.c yberspace.org> writes:
>[color=green]
> > Martin Dickopp <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> spoke thus:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> Martin ( <-- that's my name, /not/ an example of a freestanding
> >> environment)[/color]
> >
> > Well, you don't walk with a cane, do you?[/color]
>
> Neither do I, nor does my name.
>[color=green]
> > Then you're freestanding ;)[/color]
>
> But I'm not an environment,[/color]

Tell that to bacteria. :-)

-Mike

[Mike Wahler]

Re: Freestanding Environment

"Dan Pop" <Dan.Pop@cern.c h> wrote in message
news:c2595r$cl3 $1@sunnews.cern .ch...[color=blue]
> In <cunr7w9eu2r.fs f@zero-based.org> Martin Dickopp[/color]
<expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> writes:[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> >Dan.Pop@cern.c h (Dan Pop) writes:
> >[color=darkred]
> >> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R[/color][/color][/color]
Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>
> >>>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.
> >>
> >> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.[/color]
> >
> >Your favourite mistake at work again: high end microwave ovens and
> >washing machines need not be freestanding environments, for the simple
> >reason that they can be (and are) programmed in languages other than C
> >where the term "freestandi ng environment" isn't defined.[/color]
>
> Freestanding environment is a general concept, that has precious little
> to do with one programming language or another. Ditto for hosted
> environment.[/color]

Well, I'd apply context here (which due to the description
of comp.lang.c is ISO C):

=============== =============== =============== ============
ISO/IEC 9899:1999 (E)

[....]

4. Conformance

[....]

6 The two forms of conforming implementation are hosted and
freestanding. A conforming hosted implementation shall accept
any strictly conforming program. A conforming freestanding
implementation shall accept any strictly conforming program
that does not use complex types and in which the use of the
features specified in the library clause (clause 7) is confined
to the contents of the standard headers <float.h>, <iso646.h>,
<limits.h>, <stdarg.h>, <stdbool.h>, <stddef.h>, and <stdint.h>.
A conforming implementation may have extensions (including
additional library functions), provided they do not alter the
behavior of any strictly conforming program.

[....]

5.1.2.1 Freestanding environment

1 In a freestanding environment (in which C program execution
may take place without any benefit of an operating system),
the name and type of the function called at program startup
are implementation-defined. Any library facilities available
to a freestanding program, other than the minimal set required
by clause 4, are implementation-defined.

2 The effect of program termination in a freestanding environment
is implementation-defined.

[....]

=============== =============== =============== ============

-Mike

[Keith Thompson]

Re: Freestanding Environment

Dan.Pop@cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:[color=blue]
> In <cunr7w9eu2r.fs f@zero-based.org> Martin Dickopp
> <expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> writes:[color=green]
> >Dan.Pop@cern.c h (Dan Pop) writes:[color=darkred]
> >> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R
> >> Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:
> >>>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.
> >>
> >> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.[/color]
> >
> >Your favourite mistake at work again: high end microwave ovens and
> >washing machines need not be freestanding environments, for the simple
> >reason that they can be (and are) programmed in languages other than C
> >where the term "freestandi ng environment" isn't defined.[/color]
>
> Freestanding environment is a general concept, that has precious little
> to do with one programming language or another. Ditto for hosted
> environment.
>
> And an executable binary is an executable binary, regardless of the
> language(s) it was written in, before being translated to an executable
> binary.
>
> Try engaging your brain next time![/color]

Ahem.

This is comp.lang.c. If someone asks about "freestandi ng
environments" in this newsgroup, it's reasonable to assume that the
question is about the C programming language, especially since the C99
standard defines the term "freestandi ng implementation" in section 4,
paragraph 6 (and the C90 standard defines the same term in section 4,
paragraph 2). (I assumed you already knew that, since you replied to
the question with useful information without complaining that the
question was off-topic.)

Before telling people to engage their brains, you might pause to
consider the possibility that they already have.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keit h) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
Schroedinger does Shakespeare: "To be *and* not to be"

[Grumble]

Re: Freestanding Environment

Dan Pop wrote:
[color=blue]
> Any particular point in repeating my own example?[/color]

Dan,

I think you need a hug, or a role model :-)

Yours truly,

Bliss

[Dan Pop]

Re: Freestanding Environment

In <Bqs1c.17633$yZ 1.6007@newsread 2.news.pas.eart hlink.net> "Mike Wahler" <mkwahler@mkwah ler.net> writes:
[color=blue]
>"Dan Pop" <Dan.Pop@cern.c h> wrote in message
>news:c2595r$cl 3$1@sunnews.cer n.ch...[color=green]
>> In <cunr7w9eu2r.fs f@zero-based.org> Martin Dickopp[/color]
><expires-2004-04-30@zero-based.org> writes:[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>> >Dan.Pop@cern.c h (Dan Pop) writes:
>> >
>> >> In <c24imn$1p8p17$ 1@ID-203837.news.uni-berlin.de> "Vijay Kumar R[/color][/color]
>Zanvar" <vijoeyz@hotpop .com> writes:[color=green][color=darkred]
>> >>
>> >>>I want to know few examples of freestanding environments.
>> >>
>> >> Any high end microwave oven, washing machine, TV set etc etc.
>> >
>> >Your favourite mistake at work again: high end microwave ovens and
>> >washing machines need not be freestanding environments, for the simple
>> >reason that they can be (and are) programmed in languages other than C
>> >where the term "freestandi ng environment" isn't defined.[/color]
>>
>> Freestanding environment is a general concept, that has precious little
>> to do with one programming language or another. Ditto for hosted
>> environment.[/color]
>
>Well, I'd apply context here (which due to the description
>of comp.lang.c is ISO C):[/color]

Is a freestanding environment without any freestanding C implementation
any different from a freestanding environment with one or more
freestanding C implementations ?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
DESY Zeuthen, RZ group
Email: Dan.Pop@ifh.de