Is it all trivial?

[Henry]

Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good grasp
of the language?


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[Greg P.]

Re: Is it all trivial?

"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> wrote in message
news:vldc8mmg7u 6d19@corp.super news.com...
| Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
| programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good
grasp
| of the language?

What I state below is what is the norm for the state I reside in:

Probably. No one wants to hire someone that can just write simple console
applications that add numbers and write to files (that's what perl's for,
and a proper system's admin will do it as part of their job).

To get a good job as a "developer" (that's the professional name for a
programmer), you need to first have some collateral (sourceforge projects
[working ones!], libraries, tech mag articles, etc) to be even be considered
to take the roll of a developer. In essence, a developer, once hired, is
expected to be able to create applications/scripts for various problems and
contexts (in many different languages, not just C). Developers are people
that solve problems with the best, fastest, and stable(hopefull y) tool
available, rather than relying solely on only one or two tools (languages in
this manner) that they know.

I would not get your hopes up at all, unless you live somewhere that lacks a
certain amount of developers.

If you do wish to become a "developer" , you should not expect that once you
read one, two, three, four, or more books that you will have the skill to do
what is demanded. For example: You are working as a developer for a small
company than needs an recovery program for their computers (that reinstalls
the OS and software). Suddenly, your employer approaches you and requests
that you "hurry" and create a daemon for your in-house network that attaches
to all server side execution threads, writes them to a locked part of memory
until a specified time is reached each day, parses them for information with
external scripts (like python), formats the parsed text for printing, then
sends the appropriate signals to open, begin, and end the printing session.
And he/she wants that within a day and all you know how to do is write
simple utility programs.

The industry moves much faster than any person can follow. If you want to
become a developer, I suggest you start digging your nose in everything that
you can find and learning all you can. If won't be overnight (or even in a
year or two).

[Greg P.]

Re: Is it all trivial?

"Greg P." <no@spam.sam> wrote in message
news:ssz5b.7786 $tw6.5089@newsr ead4.news.pas.e arthlink.net...
| what is demanded. For example: You are working as a developer for a small
| company than needs an recovery program for their computers (that
reinstalls
| the OS and software). Suddenly, your employer approaches you and requests
| that you "hurry" and create a daemon for your in-house network that
attaches

And I forgot to mention that the employer wants a pretty and easily
commandable GUI front-end that changes the states in the daemon written in
GTK+. And then he/she adds "Oh, and I'd like to be able to access it from
our Windows desktops too"...which means now you have to distribute gtk
runtime dll's to all the clients or switch to wxwindows and create cross
builds (which means you now have to add an abstraction layer to your program
that wraps windows and Linux directory hierarchies for your simple
configuration/ini files). And yes, all this within the same time frame.

I am not trying to scare you, just stating what I (and some others I know)
have encountered when *thinking* that we had a tight enough *grasp* on the
language to actually make it our occupation.

Read, soak, and absorb all you can.

[Jeff]

Re: Is it all trivial?


"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> wrote in message
news:vldc8mmg7u 6d19@corp.super news.com...[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good[/color]
grasp[color=blue]
> of the language?
>[/color]

You have to learn many things to become a programmer, not only C language.
[color=blue]
>
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> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>[/color]

[Pieter Droogendijk]

Re: Is it all trivial?

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:27:16 -0400
"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> wrote:[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good grasp
> of the language?
>[/color]

Here's what a former collegue of mine thinks it takes to be a competant C
programmer. I agree with him.

http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ccode/debug.html

--
char*x(c,k,s)ch ar*k,*s;{if(!k) return*s-36?x(0,0,s+1):s ;if(s)if(*s)c=1 0+(c?(x(
c,k,0),x(c,k+=* s-c,s+1),*k):(x(* s,k,s+1),0));el se c=10;printf(&x( ~0,0,k)[c-~-
c+"1"[~c<-c]],c);}main(){x(0 ,"^[kXc6]dn_eaoh$%c","-34*1'.+(,03#;+, )/'///*");}

[Martin Dickopp]

Re: Is it all trivial?

"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> writes:
[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer?[/color]

No offence intended, but IMHO the answer is yes. And that goes not only
for C, but for any programming language.

The reason is that there are a lot of people who *love* programming. They
create computer programs no matter if they are paid to do so or not.
Naturally, employers prefer such enthusiastic programmers over people
who consider programming just a means to get a job.

Martin

[Ronald Landheer-Cieslak]

Re: Is it all trivial?

In article <vldc8mmg7u6d19 @corp.supernews .com>, Henry wrote:[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer?[/color]
Short version: yes.
Long version: no.

If you're just trying to learn the language to get a job as a developer
quickly, you're definitely wasting your time - try out for gardening in
stead. Once you've learned the C language, your to-be employer will ask
you a question about that spiffy language you've just learned, and if
your would-be employer is a developer, you won't be able to answer.

If you want to become a developer, you'll have to do a bit more than just
learn a programming language like C: you'll have to understand and be able
to manage the *entire* process of designing and implementing a software
solution *from scratch*, and that solution must be stable, extensible, and
easy to use.

You must also know which tools to use for which problem: there is no need to
re-invent the wheel, so you have to know which wheels already exist; there
is a plethora of programming languages Out There - C is just one of them. A
developer needs to know (about) more than just one language.

Hence, the long version: if you want to become a developer, C is a good start
for a language to learn a language suited for imperitive programming. There's
also object-oriented programming, which comes in different flavours,
functional programming, etc.. You'll probably want to learn C++, Java, Perl,
PHP, VBscript, C#, Lisp, etc. as well - at least some of their basics may come
in handy.
[color=blue]
> How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good grasp
> of the language?[/color]
You apply - send your CV to the company you want to work for and hope for the
best. Be very surprised if they hire you, though :)

rlc

--
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Just: Jail Uses Silly Terms

Join the discussion on the definition of this language at
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[Thomas Matthews]

Re: Is it all trivial?

Henry wrote:
[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer?[/color]

If your only skill is the C language, yes your are wasting your time.
A good programmer knows the language, but also knows design patterns,
data structures, optimization techniques, and design principles.

You can write a simple program knowing just the language. You can
write better programs by using a linked list. Knowing when to
employ a table lookup versus a switch will simplify development
time and produce smaller code (thus saving you time).
[color=blue]
> How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good grasp
> of the language?[/color]
I believe the same way anybody else does:
1. Networking (who do you know in the field).
2. Recruiters
3. Job Banks
4. Internship, co-op, contractor.

Do you want a career or a job?

--
Thomas Matthews

C++ newsgroup welcome message:

http://www.slack.net/~shiva/welcome.txt

C++ Faq: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite
C Faq: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/c-faq/top.html
alt.comp.lang.l earn.c-c++ faq:

http://www.raos.demon.uk/acllc-c++/faq.html

Other sites:
http://www.josuttis.com -- C++ STL Library book

[Henry]

Re: Is it all trivial?

> Hence, the long version: if you want to become a developer, C is a good
start[color=blue]
> for a language to learn a language suited for imperitive programming.[/color]
There's[color=blue]
> also object-oriented programming, which comes in different flavours,
> functional programming, etc.. You'll probably want to learn C++, Java,[/color]
Perl,[color=blue]
> PHP, VBscript, C#, Lisp, etc. as well - at least some of their basics may[/color]
come[color=blue]
> in handy.[/color]


Looks like I am wasting my time. I would go to school and major in computer
sciences but I fear by the time I graduate the jobs will be fewer than they
are now to say the least.

India anyone ?


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[Malcolm]

Re: Is it all trivial?


"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> wrote in message[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a
> computer programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I
> have a good grasp of the language?
>[/color]
Ultimately a computer has to do something that has nothing to do with
computers, if it is to be useful.
If you have some non-computer knowledge, then see if you can combine it with
a knowledge of C to get you a job.

[Isaac Mushinsky]

Re: Is it all trivial?

It is not the question of C, but whether you think you really want to be a
programmer. If you enjoy programming and have reasonable ability and
intelligence, you'll learn languages as you need them. In that case C is a
good one to start. However, it is usually not enough to get you a job,
you'll need to learn operating systems work, and at least one thoroughly,
you should be able to design efficient algorithms (e.g. how many sorting
algorithms do you know and what would you use and when and why), and you
need to learn general software design practices (these mostly come with
experience).

"Henry" <henryhc@knolog y.net> wrote in message
news:vldc8mmg7u 6d19@corp.super news.com...[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C so I can get a job as a computer
> programmer? How do I go about getting a job once I feel I have a good[/color]
grasp[color=blue]
> of the language?
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003
>
>[/color]

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Re: Is it all trivial?

Henry wrote:
[color=blue]
> Am I wasting my time trying to learn C
> so I can get a job as a computer programmer?[/color]

Probably.
[color=blue]
> How do I go about getting a job
> once I feel I have a good grasp of the language?[/color]

It is very hard to get a job as a C programmer
no matter how well you know C.

Employers don't usually hire C programmers.
They hire people who can solve problems.
They expect those people to have whatever
computer programming language skills are required
to solve their problems.
Programming in C or any other language
is usually considered to be a low level skill
like typing or word processing.
You don't really need to know C very well
to write useful programs in a professional environment.
But some jobs may require a deep an fundamental
understanding of mathematics, science, engineering,
finance, computer architecture and software engineering
just to get you to the point where you can write
a C program that will solve the problem.

[Richard Heathfield]

Re: Is it all trivial?

Henry wrote:
[color=blue]
> Looks like I am wasting my time.[/color]


If you really loved programming, you would not have said this. So you are
probably right - it would be a waste of your time.
[color=blue]
> I would go to school and major in
> computer sciences but I fear by the time I graduate the jobs will be fewer
> than they are now to say the least.[/color]

So certain are you. Ever heard of economic cycles?
[color=blue]
> India anyone ?[/color]

<shrug> You get what you pay for. I have had the privilege of meeting an
extremely skilled programmer from India. He's a great guy. He's also very
rare. In fact, extremely skilled programmers from India are just as rare as
extremely skilled programmers from other countries such as the UK and the
USA.

A company that wants talent will have to pay for it. This "all the software
development expertise you can eat for a dollar" marketing is strictly for
those who leave their brains in the cloakroom each morning at 9am, and
don't collect it until it's time to head for home.

The best software is either rather expensive or completely free.

--
Richard Heathfield : binary@eton.pow ernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton

[Richard Heathfield]

Re: Is it all trivial?

E. Robert Tisdale wrote:
[color=blue]
> It is very hard to get a job as a C programmer
> no matter how well you know C.[/color]

Not really. There are plenty of vacancies for C programmers, especially in
the embedded and Unix worlds.
[color=blue]
> Employers don't usually hire C programmers.[/color]

That's true. They usually hire people who claim to know C, but don't.
[color=blue]
> They hire people who can solve problems.[/color]

This is, alas, not the case. If you haven't got
C/C+/C++/C+++/.NET/HTML/JavaScript/VBScript/OakScript/PerlScript/CScript/ASP/BSP/CSP/DSP/ESP,
and at least 10 years in each of those skills, it doesn't matter how good
you are at problem-solving, because you won't even get an interview.
[color=blue]
> They expect those people to have whatever
> computer programming language skills are required
> to solve their problems.[/color]

Actually, they often expect candidates to have whatever programming skills
the previous incumbent had, or they just make stuff up. I recently saw a
role which required five-to-seven years of VB 6, despite the fact that VB 6
had only been released four and a half years prior to the date of the
advertisement.
[color=blue]
> Programming in C or any other language
> is usually considered to be a low level skill
> like typing or word processing.[/color]

Not by experts. At my particular instance of MumbleCo, C skill is highly
valued.
[color=blue]
> You don't really need to know C very well[/color]

Just as well, eh?

--
Richard Heathfield : binary@eton.pow ernet.co.uk
"Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton