C to Java Byte Code

[Dik T. Winter]

Re: Not STD C is "not C" ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <2uv57gF2e8g87U 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:[color=blue]
> Why not have readers post in one format, ie "> " or so, that is,
> unpadded quotings? I think readers should just modify the /OUTPUT/,
> meaning the post being read, to add coloring, padding, or both, whatever
> the user wants to see the output.[/color]

Hrm. My newsreader is not configurable in that way.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Dik T. Winter]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <2uv7saF2franfU 1@uni-berlin.de> "Alfred Z. Newmane" <a.newmane.remo ve@eastcoastcz. com> writes:
....[color=blue]
> That said, if I'm right, I'm guessing you are using that form of quoting
> from habit? (At least from part?)[/color]

That is one of the reasons. The other is that my newsreader will refuse
to post, etc...
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[Dik T. Winter]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <Enyid.719$Zb3. 491@trndny07> "Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
....[color=blue]
> I'd like to add further that (right or wrong) I have no idea why Dik would
> want to make it tough for so many people to respond coherently to him in the
> first place. And to see his quotes in color.[/color]

As I wrote before, before this thread I have only had three complaints in
all the 17 years that I am using the way I quote. Only this thread is
quite vehement about it, and in that thread only three people. I also
see many replies to articles I write in various newsgroups. I am reading
in black on white, and for me a quote stands out better when it is
well-indented. (And, yes, you will not find it in the header, the
newsreader I am using is good old rn, which satisfies my needs very
well.)

But whatever, if you do not want to see it, put in your killfile
instructions to avoid all articles by me or all articles where I
am quoted. A little bit decent newsreader (like rn in 1984) could
do that easily enough.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

[joe@invalid.address]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> I'd like to add further that (right or wrong) I have no idea why Dik
> would want to make it tough for so many people to respond coherently
> to him in the first place. And to see his quotes in color.
>
> Forget whether or not it's ideal. It's the /way it is/: OE + OE
> QuoteFix is very common, and all those people are going to have a
> problem replying, or worse, they won't even bother trying.[/color]

I suspect that the percentage of people who use OE and read these
newsgroups will be a relatively small proportion of all OE users. I'd
guess that most people who read these groups use more functional
newsreaders.

Just my two cent's worth.

Joe
--
Nothing cures like time and love
- Laura Nyro

[G. S. Hayes]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

jcoffin@taeus.c om (Jerry Coffin) wrote in message news:<b2e4b04.0 410291754.29b5d d46@posting.goo gle.com>...[color=blue]
> "Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> wrote in message news:<Bltgd.6$3 04.0@trndny06>. ..[color=green]
> > There is a *prevailing* notion that:
> >
> > If it ain't standard C, it ain't C[/color]
>
> This is more than a mere notion: it's a tautology, since C is defined
> by the standard.[/color]
[SNIP][color=blue]
> If it ain't C, it ain't topical in comp.lang.c, and if it ain't C++ it
> ain't topical in comp.lang.c++. Since these languages are defined by
> standards, "C" and "standard C" are synonymous. While I'm not a
> regular participant in comp.unix.progr amming, I'd imagine it's run
> along more or less similar lines.[/color]

In my experience, I would say it's not. At least not in the sense of
"if it ain't standard, it ain't Unix". Certainly there are
discussions about how to do things in platform-specific manners on
SysV, BSD, Linux, and other platforms that are more or less "Unixish",
but it's not limited to any of:

a) Machines that are trademark Unix
b) Machines that are derived from the Unix source code
c) Machines that comply strictly with POSIX (or the Single Unix
Specification, or any other standard) (there are other POSIX-related
newsgroups).

Indeed, while you can make an argument for any of those
definitions--and probably most correctly for a), at least
legally--casual and newsgroup usage often treats anything that
"behaves a lot like Unix" as on-topic. That's in contrast to
comp.lang.c, where discussion of GNU C or something else that is "a
lot like C" is considered off-topic.

Both of the following are common answers on c.u.p:

"That's not possible in POSIX, but on BSD try foo(), on SVR4 try bar()
and on Linux try baz()"
"that can't be done on most Unix systems, but Coolix 3.0 has the qux()
call and Portix has wobble()"

Indeed, a huge number of questions which get answers like this are not
considered off-topic.

It's a fuzzy line. Ask how to get information about what processes
are running, and you'll probably be considered on-topic even though
there are a lot of platform-specific details involved. Ask about how
to use the TV grabber interface on your Linux box or the OpenBSD
firewalling tables and you're likely to be redirected to a
platform-specific group.

But c.u.p, for better or worse, is more lenient than comp.lang.c,
where answering with "that's not possible in standard C, but on
Windows you can do x, on Macs you can do Y, and on Unix you can do z"
is not the norm for things that aren't in the standard--and if an
answer like that IS given, it's usually either accompanied by "this is
really off-topic, you should ask on a system-specific group" or
followed up by someone saying "you shouldn't have answered that since
people here can't vet your answers and correct your mistakes". Or
both.

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Alfred Z. Newmane coughed up:[color=blue]
> Thomas G. Marshall wrote:[color=green]
>> Dik T. Winter coughed up:[color=darkred]
>>> In article <td8id.3820$rZ1 .2733@trndny05> "Thomas G. Marshall"
>>> <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes: >
>>> Dik T. Winter coughed up: ...
>>> > > quoted text was needed, you should do:
>>> > > :%s/^>/</
>>> > > to change the quoting symbol. I am very sure that in earlier
>>> releases > > it was advised that you should do:
>>> > > :%s/^>/ >/
>>> >
>>> > I saw this as well yesterday----Not sure what it means.
>>>
>>> First I was wrong. Next, let me explain. When in 1984 rn came out
>>> to replace readnews as a newsreader (they were, I think, second and
>>> first respectively), the system would reject articles where the
>>> number of lines
>>> of quoted text was larger than the number of lines of new text.
>>> This according to a guideline that had come into force around that
>>> time (readnews did not impose such limits). In some cases this was
>>> too severe (but it helped quite a bit, as it suggested severely
>>> trimming the
>>> quoted material). So around that time ways were thought to allow
>>> such postings if you did put in enough effort. One way was to
>>> follow the advice above: when you were put into 'vi' (as text
>>> editor) to create your follow-up, first delete any stuff that was
>>> irrelevant, next change
>>> the quotation character. (The command ":%s/^>/</" is a 'vi' command
>>> to change any ">" that occurs at the start of a line to "<".) Doing
>>> that would interfere with the check of new text against quoted text.
>>> By the time that advice got to the guidelines (I think December
>>> 1987) many people had already done various things with the quoting
>>> string, as it was easy with rn to change the quoting string to
>>> anything you fancied (about three years of frustration have gone
>>> into it). That is why you see the proliferation of quoting styles,
>>> none of them have ever been disallowed (but it was suggested that
>>> you did not use specific symbols).
>>>
>>> BTW, one of the big advantages of 'rn' over 'readnews' was the
>>> introduction of 'kill-files', another one was that now you no longer
>>> needed to see *all* header lines of an article.[/color]
>>
>> I recognized the vi / ex / sed-like command, and knew what it did per
>> se. I just didn't know what they were trying to accomplish. To
>> defeat the more quote than substance rule makes sense. (I hope we're
>> way past ever needing that silly rule again).[/color]
>
> I hope so. I haven't seen such a rule imposed on any server in the
> past few years now, and I don't know of any newer (version) readers
> that check it either. Please correct me if i'm wrong.
>
> That said, if I'm right, I'm guessing you are using that form of
> quoting from habit? (At least from part?)[/color]


I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone reply heatedly

"I see you've conveniently snipped away what
I said about [...]"

I think that these days, the server storage and internet bandwidth issues
are such that fully quoted everything all the time isn't going to kill
anyone. {author ducks inevitable flame}

And, ironically, I've just been told this, in
microsoft.publi c.windows.inete xplorer.ie6_out lookexpress:

<quote from PA Bear>
TGM: If you want people to follow this thread and offer advice,
include all
of Previous Message in all of your replies, please.
</quote>

{chuckle}.

[Måns Rullgård]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
[color=blue]
> I think that these days, the server storage and internet bandwidth issues
> are such that fully quoted everything all the time isn't going to kill
> anyone. {author ducks inevitable flame}[/color]

Removing the irrelevant bits saves the reader the time to scan through
the entire message looking for a reply.
[color=blue]
> And, ironically, I've just been told this, in
> microsoft.publi c.windows.inete xplorer.ie6_out lookexpress:
>
> <quote from PA Bear>
> TGM: If you want people to follow this thread and offer advice,
> include all
> of Previous Message in all of your replies, please.
> </quote>[/color]

If you ask him, he probably advocates top-posting as well. Be careful
with where you take your advice.

--
Måns Rullgård
mru@inprovide.c om

[Willem]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Thomas wrote:
) I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone reply heatedly
)
) "I see you've conveniently snipped away what
) I said about [...]"
)
) I think that these days, the server storage and internet bandwidth issues
) are such that fully quoted everything all the time isn't going to kill
) anyone. {author ducks inevitable flame}

Irrelevant.

Not snipping it would simply change the above statement to:

"I see you've conveniebtly declined to answer what
I said about [...]"

(Unless whoever sais that is too stupid to notice you didn't answer all of
his statements, but can see that you snip away some statements that you
know you don't respond to, in which case snipping it is actually a service
to said stupid person.)


SaSW, Willem
--
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Willem coughed up:[color=blue]
> Thomas wrote:
> ) I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone reply heatedly
> )
> ) "I see you've conveniently snipped away what
> ) I said about [...]"
> )
> ) I think that these days, the server storage and internet bandwidth
> issues ) are such that fully quoted everything all the time isn't
> going to kill ) anyone. {author ducks inevitable flame}
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> Not snipping it would simply change the above statement to:
>
> "I see you've conveniebtly declined to answer what
> I said about [...]"[/color]


Sure, that's probably right. I was regarding the larger problem of people
not understanding the full statement of the prior person before replying.
To me, biasing everything over over-snippage is fair.

Note that I /do/ snip. Er, actually, I "rip", "twack", "stomp", etc...


....[rip]...


--
Iamamanofconsta ntsorrow,I'vese entroubleallmyd ays.Ibidfarewel ltoold
Kentucky,Thepla cewhereIwasborn andraised.Forsi xlongyearsI'veb eenin
trouble,Nopleas ureshereonearth Ifound.Forinthi sworldI'mboundt oramble,
Ihavenofriendst ohelpmenow....M aybeyourfriends thinkI'mjustast rangerMyface,
you'llneverseen omore.Buttherei sonepromisethat isgivenI'llmeet youonGod's
goldenshore.

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

Måns Rullgård coughed up:

....[rip]...
[color=blue]
> Removing the irrelevant bits saves the reader the time to scan through
> the entire message looking for a reply.[/color]

You're right.

[color=blue][color=green]
>> And, ironically, I've just been told this, in
>> microsoft.publi c.windows.inete xplorer.ie6_out lookexpress:
>>
>> <quote from PA Bear>
>> TGM: If you want people to follow this thread and offer
>> advice, include all
>> of Previous Message in all of your replies, please.
>> </quote>[/color]
>
> If you ask him, he probably advocates top-posting as well. Be careful
> with where you take your advice.[/color]

Fair enough. I suspect, upon reflection, that he was specifically
advocating this because of the problem at hand. But you're right.



--
Iamamanofconsta ntsorrow,I'vese entroubleallmyd ays.Ibidfarewel ltoold
Kentucky,Thepla cewhereIwasborn andraised.Forsi xlongyearsI'veb eenin
trouble,Nopleas ureshereonearth Ifound.Forinthi sworldI'mboundt oramble,
Ihavenofriendst ohelpmenow....M aybeyourfriends thinkI'mjustast rangerMyface,
you'llneverseen omore.Buttherei sonepromisethat isgivenI'llmeet youonGod's
goldenshore.

[Dik T. Winter]

Re: Not STD C is &quot;not C&quot; ? ----WAS: Re: C to Java Byte Code

In article <G%9jd.1131$Zl2 .122@trndny01> "Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thp ower@replacetex twithnumber.hot mail.com> writes:
....[color=blue]
> Sure, that's probably right. I was regarding the larger problem of people
> not understanding the full statement of the prior person before replying.
> To me, biasing everything over over-snippage is fair.[/color]

Of course, that does occur. Pulling statements out of context and whatever.
But if such happens the original poster will probably notice it and correct
it. And if not it is very probably that somebody else will notice.
Discussion with people doing that is very problematical however.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/