Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

[jose luis fernandez diaz]

Hi,

My OS is:

cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license


I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:

cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
#include <iostream.h>
#include <limits>

int main()
{
long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<
endl;


return 0;
}
cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out
8 8
-922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308



The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits
are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?

Thanks,
Jose Luis.

[Lew Pitcher]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> My OS is:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
>
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();[/color]
[snip]

Well, since you are using a different language from C, we in the comp.lang.c
newsgroup cannot assist you. Your question does not relate to C, and should be
(presumably, from the crossposting, was) asked in a forum related to the
language in which you wrote your example. This appears to be C++, so that forum
would be comp.lang.c++.


- --
Lew Pitcher
IT Consultant, Enterprise Application Architecture,
Enterprise Technology Solutions, TD Bank Financial Group

(Opinions expressed are my own, not my employers')
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFAljf6agV FX4UWr64RAnujAJ wJ4mOsZZ9THxxul 4vwzrvTo/acYwCcDLiJ
+EqfYBtEqbJjlf/u1b7p2DQ=
=7HZL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Karl Heinz Buchegger]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Hi,
>
> My OS is:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<
> endl;
>
> return 0;
> }
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out
> 8 8
> -922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308
>
> The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits
> are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?[/color]

Well.

1.79769E308

does not mean that the number is accurate to the last digit. It means

179769000000000 0000000....0000 00.....000000
and the next smallest number is probably something like
179768000000000 0000000....0000 00.....000000

so there are large gaps between numbers. Those gaps get smaller when
the numbers get smaller.

--
Karl Heinz Buchegger
kbuchegg@gascad .at

[Jeff Schwab]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long?

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> My OS is:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
>
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>[/color]

#include <iostream> // No ".h" extension.
[color=blue]
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {[/color]

using namespace std;
[color=blue]
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<
> endl;
>
>
> return 0;
> }
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out
> 8 8
> -922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308
>
>
>
> The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits
> are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?[/color]

Typically, some of the bits representing a double are interpreted as an
exponent, and the rest as a multiplier. Floating-point math results in
approximate results, whereas any operation closed over the field of
integers will give an exact result when applied to long int's (if we
discount {over,under}flo w).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating-point_standard

[James McIninch]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

<posted & mailed>

The code below isn't C language code, but the question still applies.

A double can represent larger numbers because it lacks the resolution of the
long type. For a long integer, you have one number with absolute precision
for each integer within the range. For a double, you have exactly the same
number of values as the long, but on average, the difference between each
individual value and the next is much greater. Instead of counting by 1's,
you are counting by tens of thousands.

It may be easier to understand if you think about it this way, a integer
simply stores a number. A double uses the same number of bits to store two
numbers: one an integer, and one to tell it where to stick the decimal
point. The range of integers (where there is precision) is much smaller
because only a portion of the double is used to store the integral part
(mantissa) while another portion of the bits is used to store the position
of the decimal point (exponent). That's a simplification, but you get the
idea.

Integers are perfectly precise with a narrow range, and doubles are, on
average, very imprecise but cover a much wider range. Both doubles and
integers (in this case, since they are the same number of bits on your
system) have the same number of values.

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> My OS is:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
>
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<
> endl;
>
>
> return 0;
> }
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out
> 8 8
> -922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308
>
>
>
> The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits
> are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?
>
> Thanks,
> Jose Luis.[/color]

--
remove .spam from address to reply by e-mail.

[Terry]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?


"Lew Pitcher" <Lew.Pitcher@td .com> wrote in message
news:MHqlc.1745 5$3Q4.280308@ne ws20.bellglobal .com...[color=blue]
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=green]
> > Hi,
> >
> > My OS is:
> >
> > cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> > HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
> >
> >
> > I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
> >
> > cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> > #include <iostream.h>
> > #include <limits>
> >
> > int main()
> > {
> > long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> > long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();[/color]
> [snip]
>
> Well, since you are using a different language from C, we in the[/color]
comp.lang.c[color=blue]
> newsgroup cannot assist you. Your question does not relate to C, and[/color]
should be[color=blue]
> (presumably, from the crossposting, was) asked in a forum related to the
> language in which you wrote your example. This appears to be C++, so that[/color]
forum[color=blue]
> would be comp.lang.c++.
>
>
> - --
> Lew Pitcher
> IT Consultant, Enterprise Application Architecture,
> Enterprise Technology Solutions, TD Bank Financial Group
>[/color]

Not very helpful.

Regards

[CBFalconer]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max << endl;
>
> return 0;
> }[/color]

C++ is off topic on c.l.c. Please refrain from any such
cross-postings.

--
Some useful references:
<http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >
<http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
<http://benpfaff.org/writings/clc/off-topic.html>
<http://anubis.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n869/> (C99)

[joe durusau]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?



CBFalconer wrote:
[color=blue]
> jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
> >
> > cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> > #include <iostream.h>
> > #include <limits>
> >
> > int main()
> > {
> > long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> > long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> > double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> > double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> > cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> > cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max << endl;
> >
> > return 0;
> > }[/color]
>
> C++ is off topic on c.l.c. Please refrain from any such
> cross-postings.
>
> --
> Some useful references:
> <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt >
> <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
> <http://benpfaff.org/writings/clc/off-topic.html>
> <http://anubis.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n869/> (C99)[/color]

Well, the question doesn't have anything to do with unix, either, but
you might see whether your sompiler has sizeof() in it. That could tell
you the size of long and of double, and might provide a clue.

The best place to persue this sort of thing is a textbook. There are
very few newsgroups that devote themselves to trying to run down
questions relating to problems that probably pertain to a specific
compiler/platform issue such as this one. Too bad, but that's the
way it is.

Speaking only for myself,

Joe Durusau

[Jack Klein]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

On Mon, 3 May 2004 17:09:27 +0100, "Terry"
<terry@tbean.fr eeserve.co.uk> wrote in comp.lang.c:

[snip]
[color=blue]
> Not very helpful.
>
> Regards[/color]

Nor was your follow up.

--
Jack Klein
Home: http://JK-Technology.Com
FAQs for
comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
alt.comp.lang.l earn.c-c++

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html

[jose luis fernandez diaz]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

Hi,

I have made the program below to try to understand how a floating
point number is made by my computer (HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800):

#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>

union
{
float f;
unsigned char uc[sizeof(float)];
} f_union;


int main()
{
f_union.f=1.0F;

unsigned char u1=1, u2;
u1 <<= sizeof(unsigned char)*8-1;

for (int i=0; i < sizeof(float); ++i)
{
u2=f_union.uc[i];
for(int j=0; j<sizeof(unsign ed char)*8; j++)
{
printf("%d", ((u1 & u2)!=0));
u2 <<= 1;
}
}
printf("\n");

int exp;
double man = frexp(f_union.f , &exp);
printf("%lf %d\n%f\n", man, exp,f_union.f);


return 0;
}


but I didn't. Perhaps the program is wrong. Here are some outputs:

001111111000000 000000000000000 00
0.500000 1
1.000000

010000000000000 000000000000000 00
0.500000 2
2.000000

010000000100000 000000000000000 00
0.750000 2
3.000000


010000001000000 000000000000000 00
0.500000 3
4.000000

010000001010000 000000000000000 00
0.625000 3
5.000000

010000010000000 000000000000000 00
0.500000 4
8.000000




Any hint are welcome.

Thanks,
Jose Luis.

jose_luis_fdez_ diaz_news@yahoo .es (jose luis fernandez diaz) wrote in message news:<c2f95fd0. 0405030402.7625 ba21@posting.go ogle.com>...[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> My OS is:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license
>
>
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:
>
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C
> #include <iostream.h>
> #include <limits>
>
> int main()
> {
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<
> endl;
>
>
> return 0;
> }
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out
> 8 8
> -922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308
>
>
>
> The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits
> are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?
>
> Thanks,
> Jose Luis.[/color]

[Karl Heinz Buchegger]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Hi,
>
> I have made the program below to try to understand how a floating
> point number is made by my computer (HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800):
>[/color]

Your program won't help you in understanding what's the deal with
floating point numbers and why they have a greater range then eg. long.

Let us simplify the whole thing in a more familiar environment.
Assume you are my 'computer'. But I will allow you to calulate
with 5 digits only (and no sign for simplicity)

If you use those 5 digits for 'long' only , you can use those 5
digits to count from 00000 to 99999, so your range is 100000 numbers.
But you can do different also. You can divide the available 5 digits
into a mantissa and an exponent. Say you use 2 digits for the exponent
and the remaining 3 digits for the mantissa (you are familiar with
sientific notation, are you?). So eg. a number 100 can be represented
in various ways:

number scientific not. our notation
*************** *************** ********
100 100 * 10^0 100 00
100 10 * 10^1 010 01
100 1 * 10^2 001 02

Note: in the column 'our notation', no representation uses more then
5 digits which fits perfectly to what I allowed to you :-)

Now lets see some other numbers.
Say you need to represent 1000 in 'out notation'. How can you do that?
Well you can eg. do 001 03. That would be 1 * 10^3. Or you could do
010 02 (10 * 10^2), or 100 01 (100 * 10^1). Fine. But now try to represent
1001 in 'out notation'. You can't. That's because the only way to get there
would be to increment the mantissa. Let's see whats happening then:

(1000) 001 03 -> (~1001) 002 03 -> 2 * 10^3 -> 2000
(1000) 010 02 -> (~1001) 011 02 -> 11 * 10^2 -> 1100
(1000) 100 01 -> (~1001) 101 01 -> 101 * 10^1 -> 1010

You see, using only 5 digits, it is impossible to get at the number 1001. You can
get 1000 and you can get 1010, but no numbers inbetween. It follows from the fact
that you reserve some of the available 5 digits to represent an exponent, which
drops the 'range' of numbers representable with the remaining 3 digits. But you
get the freedome to move the comma around by fiddeling with the exponent. Using
those 5 digit 'scientific notation' it is easy to represent

1000 -> 100 01
10000 -> 100 02
100000 -> 100 03
1000000 -> 100 04
10000000 -> 100 05

Right now we are way 'over' the upper limit for 5-digit-long, which was
99999. But we bought this by reducing the granularity. We cannot represent
all numbers in 10 millions, just some of them.

100 05 -> 10000000
101 05 -> 10100000

All numbers between 10000000 and 10100000 are not representable by our 5 digit
scheme but need to be approximated by either 10000000 or 10100000.

Back to your computer. It doesn't use only 5 digits, but much more. Also the
exponent is not taken to base 10, but to base 2. This reduces the effect you
just saw. But the principle is still the same. You buy the greater range
by reducing the granularity.

--
Karl Heinz Buchegger
kbuchegg@gascad .at

[jose luis fernandez diaz]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?

Ok. I understand.

Regards,
Jose Luis.

Karl Heinz Buchegger <kbuchegg@gasca d.at> wrote in message news:<409779C7. 65D57E09@gascad .at>...[color=blue]
> jose luis fernandez diaz wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have made the program below to try to understand how a floating
> > point number is made by my computer (HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800):
> >[/color]
>
> Your program won't help you in understanding what's the deal with
> floating point numbers and why they have a greater range then eg. long.
>
> Let us simplify the whole thing in a more familiar environment.
> Assume you are my 'computer'. But I will allow you to calulate
> with 5 digits only (and no sign for simplicity)
>
> If you use those 5 digits for 'long' only , you can use those 5
> digits to count from 00000 to 99999, so your range is 100000 numbers.
> But you can do different also. You can divide the available 5 digits
> into a mantissa and an exponent. Say you use 2 digits for the exponent
> and the remaining 3 digits for the mantissa (you are familiar with
> sientific notation, are you?). So eg. a number 100 can be represented
> in various ways:
>
> number scientific not. our notation
> *************** *************** ********
> 100 100 * 10^0 100 00
> 100 10 * 10^1 010 01
> 100 1 * 10^2 001 02
>
> Note: in the column 'our notation', no representation uses more then
> 5 digits which fits perfectly to what I allowed to you :-)
>
> Now lets see some other numbers.
> Say you need to represent 1000 in 'out notation'. How can you do that?
> Well you can eg. do 001 03. That would be 1 * 10^3. Or you could do
> 010 02 (10 * 10^2), or 100 01 (100 * 10^1). Fine. But now try to represent
> 1001 in 'out notation'. You can't. That's because the only way to get there
> would be to increment the mantissa. Let's see whats happening then:
>
> (1000) 001 03 -> (~1001) 002 03 -> 2 * 10^3 -> 2000
> (1000) 010 02 -> (~1001) 011 02 -> 11 * 10^2 -> 1100
> (1000) 100 01 -> (~1001) 101 01 -> 101 * 10^1 -> 1010
>
> You see, using only 5 digits, it is impossible to get at the number 1001. You can
> get 1000 and you can get 1010, but no numbers inbetween. It follows from the fact
> that you reserve some of the available 5 digits to represent an exponent, which
> drops the 'range' of numbers representable with the remaining 3 digits. But you
> get the freedome to move the comma around by fiddeling with the exponent. Using
> those 5 digit 'scientific notation' it is easy to represent
>
> 1000 -> 100 01
> 10000 -> 100 02
> 100000 -> 100 03
> 1000000 -> 100 04
> 10000000 -> 100 05
>
> Right now we are way 'over' the upper limit for 5-digit-long, which was
> 99999. But we bought this by reducing the granularity. We cannot represent
> all numbers in 10 millions, just some of them.
>
> 100 05 -> 10000000
> 101 05 -> 10100000
>
> All numbers between 10000000 and 10100000 are not representable by our 5 digit
> scheme but need to be approximated by either 10000000 or 10100000.
>
> Back to your computer. It doesn't use only 5 digits, but much more. Also the
> exponent is not taken to base 10, but to base 2. This reduces the effect you
> just saw. But the principle is still the same. You buy the greater range
> by reducing the granularity.[/color]

[Abhishek]

Re: Newbye quetion: Why a double can store more number than a long ?



Hi,

Long stores the integers as a normal bit representation and a double is like
a bigger float, in that it stores values in IEEE Floating point format.

You should know more about it if you want to do any serious programming in
any language. Please check google for IEEE Floating point format.



"jose luis fernandez diaz" <jose_luis_fdez _diaz_news@yaho o.es> wrote in
message news:<c2f95fd0. 0405030402.7625 ba21@posting.go ogle.com>...
[color=blue]
> Hi,[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> My OS is:[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>uname -a[/color]
[color=blue]
> HP-UX cronos B.11.11 U 9000/800 820960681 unlimited-user license[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> I compile in 64-bits mode the program below:[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>cat kk.C[/color]
[color=blue]
> #include <iostream.h>[/color]
[color=blue]
> #include <limits>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> int main()[/color]
[color=blue]
> {[/color]
[color=blue]
> long l_min = numeric_limits< long>::min();[/color]
[color=blue]
> long l_max = numeric_limits< long>::max();[/color]
[color=blue]
> double d_min = numeric_limits< double>::min();[/color]
[color=blue]
> double d_max = numeric_limits< double>::max();[/color]
[color=blue]
> cout << sizeof(long) << " " << sizeof(double) << endl;[/color]
[color=blue]
> cout << l_min << " " << l_max << " " << d_min << " " << d_max <<[/color]
[color=blue]
> endl;[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> return 0;[/color]
[color=blue]
> }[/color]
[color=blue]
> cronos:jdiaz:tm p>a.out[/color]
[color=blue]
> 8 8[/color]
[color=blue]
> -922337203685477 5808 922337203685477 5807 2.22507e-308 1.79769e+308[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> The double and long types have the same size, but the double limits[/color]
[color=blue]
> are bigger. Can anyone explein this to me ?[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]
[color=blue]
> Thanks,[/color]
[color=blue]
> Jose Luis.[/color]


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release Date: 4/27/2004