Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

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  • Steven T. Hatton

    Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

    Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
    project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
    part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.

    If such a thing doesn't exist, then would someone with enough name
    recognition to have an influence please decree such a guideline. I'd be
    happy to simply be able to say my project is organized in accordance with
    the [place name here] recommendation.

    The KDE has an approach, so does Mozilla, I trust GNOME also has some kind
    of proscribed structure. Perhaps my best bet is to examine these projects
    and select what I find useful from each. I would like to have some sense
    that my projects are organized in such a way as to be readily understood by
    other programmers who share widely accepted conventions. I also want my
    work to integrate smoothely with other people's.

    I'm a firm believer in the idea that even the smallest project should
    conform to extensible conventions. I want to get in the habit of doing
    things right, but I don't really know what right is.

    Stroustrup provides some discussion of these issues in the final chapters of
    TC++PL(SE). Have his recommendations been adopted by a large number of
    programmers? I have not yet read the chapters. Are they thorough enough to
    provide a solid foundation for organizing a large-scale project?

    Maven is something I am aware of form a past life:



    It's actually a bit too broadly focused for my purposes. I'm only
    presenting it as an example of the kind of thing I'm looking for.
    --
    p->m == (*p).m == p[0].m

    Modernize your infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise servers, cloud technology for IaaS, and SUSE's software-defined...

    Mozilla is the not-for-profit behind the lightning fast Firefox browser. We put people over profit to give everyone more power online.

  • Petec

    #2
    Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

    Steven T. Hatton wrote:
    <snip>[color=blue]
    >
    > Stroustrup provides some discussion of these issues in the final
    > chapters of TC++PL(SE). Have his recommendations been adopted by a
    > large number of programmers? I have not yet read the chapters. Are
    > they thorough enough to provide a solid foundation for organizing a
    > large-scale project?
    >[/color]

    I thought of these chapters when I saw the subject text. I highly suggest
    you read the chapters; they're very good IMO.

    - Pete

    <snip>


    Comment

    • Petec

      #3
      Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

      Steven T. Hatton wrote:
      <snip>[color=blue]
      >
      > Stroustrup provides some discussion of these issues in the final
      > chapters of TC++PL(SE). Have his recommendations been adopted by a
      > large number of programmers? I have not yet read the chapters. Are
      > they thorough enough to provide a solid foundation for organizing a
      > large-scale project?
      >[/color]

      I thought of these chapters when I saw the subject text. I highly suggest
      you read the chapters; they're very good IMO.

      - Pete

      <snip>


      Comment

      • E. Robert Tisdale

        #4
        Off Topic: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale)projects?

        Steven T. Hatton wrote:
        [color=blue]
        > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
        > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
        > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]

        These are mostly Software Engineering issues.
        You might try

        "Large-Scale C++ Software Design" by John Lakos.



        But be careful. It was published in July 1996
        and contains some out-of-date recommendations .

        Comment

        • E. Robert Tisdale

          #5
          Off Topic: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale)projects?

          Steven T. Hatton wrote:
          [color=blue]
          > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
          > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
          > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]

          These are mostly Software Engineering issues.
          You might try

          "Large-Scale C++ Software Design" by John Lakos.



          But be careful. It was published in July 1996
          and contains some out-of-date recommendations .

          Comment

          • Julie

            #6
            Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

            "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=blue]
            >
            > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
            > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
            > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]

            Have you looked at the NASA SEL?

            I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it, but
            it just popped into my head...

            Comment

            • Julie

              #7
              Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

              "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=blue]
              >
              > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
              > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
              > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]

              Have you looked at the NASA SEL?

              I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it, but
              it just popped into my head...

              Comment

              • Victor Bazarov

                #8
                Re: Off Topic: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisda le@jpl.nasa.gov > wrote...[color=blue]
                > Steven T. Hatton wrote:
                >[color=green]
                > > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                > > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                > > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                >
                > These are mostly Software Engineering issues.[/color]

                So, why not recommend news:comp.softw are-eng ? :-)
                [color=blue]
                > [...][/color]


                Comment

                • Victor Bazarov

                  #9
                  Re: Off Topic: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                  "E. Robert Tisdale" <E.Robert.Tisda le@jpl.nasa.gov > wrote...[color=blue]
                  > Steven T. Hatton wrote:
                  >[color=green]
                  > > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                  > > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                  > > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                  >
                  > These are mostly Software Engineering issues.[/color]

                  So, why not recommend news:comp.softw are-eng ? :-)
                  [color=blue]
                  > [...][/color]


                  Comment

                  • Claudio Puviani

                    #10
                    Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                    "Julie" <julie@nospam.c om> wrote[color=blue]
                    > "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=green]
                    > >
                    > > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                    > > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                    > > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                    >
                    > Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                    >
                    > I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,[/color]
                    but[color=blue]
                    > it just popped into my head...[/color]

                    That's a good source for very abstract information, but it has very little
                    that would help with C++ specific issues. The articles are also of varying
                    quality. The best I've found were the ones on quality metrics and the ones
                    on fault tolerance.

                    Claudio Puviani


                    Comment

                    • Claudio Puviani

                      #11
                      Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                      "Julie" <julie@nospam.c om> wrote[color=blue]
                      > "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=green]
                      > >
                      > > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                      > > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                      > > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                      >
                      > Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                      >
                      > I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,[/color]
                      but[color=blue]
                      > it just popped into my head...[/color]

                      That's a good source for very abstract information, but it has very little
                      that would help with C++ specific issues. The articles are also of varying
                      quality. The best I've found were the ones on quality metrics and the ones
                      on fault tolerance.

                      Claudio Puviani


                      Comment

                      • Steven T. Hatton

                        #12
                        Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                        Claudio Puviani wrote:
                        [color=blue]
                        > "Julie" <julie@nospam.c om> wrote[color=green]
                        >> "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=darkred]
                        >> >
                        >> > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure
                        >> > a
                        >> > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                        >> > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                        >>
                        >> Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                        >>
                        >> I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,[/color]
                        > but[color=green]
                        >> it just popped into my head...[/color]
                        >
                        > That's a good source for very abstract information, but it has very little
                        > that would help with C++ specific issues. The articles are also of varying
                        > quality. The best I've found were the ones on quality metrics and the ones
                        > on fault tolerance.
                        >
                        > Claudio Puviani[/color]

                        I believe I found my answer WTFM!

                        --
                        p->m == (*p).m == p[0].m

                        Modernize your infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise servers, cloud technology for IaaS, and SUSE's software-defined...

                        Mozilla is the not-for-profit behind the lightning fast Firefox browser. We put people over profit to give everyone more power online.

                        Comment

                        • Steven T. Hatton

                          #13
                          Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                          Claudio Puviani wrote:
                          [color=blue]
                          > "Julie" <julie@nospam.c om> wrote[color=green]
                          >> "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=darkred]
                          >> >
                          >> > Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure
                          >> > a
                          >> > project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                          >> > part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                          >>
                          >> Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                          >>
                          >> I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,[/color]
                          > but[color=green]
                          >> it just popped into my head...[/color]
                          >
                          > That's a good source for very abstract information, but it has very little
                          > that would help with C++ specific issues. The articles are also of varying
                          > quality. The best I've found were the ones on quality metrics and the ones
                          > on fault tolerance.
                          >
                          > Claudio Puviani[/color]

                          I believe I found my answer WTFM!

                          --
                          p->m == (*p).m == p[0].m

                          Modernize your infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise servers, cloud technology for IaaS, and SUSE's software-defined...

                          Mozilla is the not-for-profit behind the lightning fast Firefox browser. We put people over profit to give everyone more power online.

                          Comment

                          • Steven T. Hatton

                            #14
                            Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                            Julie wrote:
                            [color=blue]
                            > "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=green]
                            >>
                            >> Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                            >> project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                            >> part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                            >
                            > Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                            >
                            > I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,
                            > but it just popped into my head...[/color]

                            This is a living example of one of the most successful C++ dominated
                            software projects ever: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/

                            I recall looking at the NASA site a while back as well. The kind of stuff
                            I'm looking for is not the high-level abstraction, how to design your
                            interfaces between packages, etc., kind of literature. I want more
                            fundamental guidance on how to use the plethora of alternatives provided by
                            the features described in the Standard. I just read through Clause 3
                            (Chapter 3) of PL-C++03. This is out of date, but it will give a hint of
                            what the current document reads like. The stuff on name lookup is
                            mind-boggling. http://www.itga.com.au/~gnb/wp/cd2/

                            I do have a way of establishing a pretty powerful project structure in a
                            hurry. The KDE and KDevelop are doing a wonderful job. Unfortunately, some
                            of the outstanding performance is due to the contributions of uniquely
                            tallanted people, and not a codified approach. But it is open to
                            examination: http://ng-project.org/~kdevelop/apid.../inherits.html

                            The following is from a 'hello world' created by KDevelop:

                            hattons@ljosalf r:~/code/c++/managed/
                            Wed Apr 07 04:30:01:> find . -name "*"
                            ..
                            ../po
                            ../po/Makefile.am
                            ../po/Makefile.in
                            ../doc
                            ../doc/en
                            ../doc/en/Makefile.am
                            ../doc/en/Makefile.in
                            ../doc/en/index.docbook
                            ../doc/Makefile.am
                            ../doc/Makefile.in
                            ../src
                            ../src/hi16-app-managed.png
                            ../src/managed.cpp
                            ../src/managed.lsm
                            ../src/main.cpp
                            ../src/managed.h
                            ../src/Makefile.am
                            ../src/Makefile.in
                            ../src/managedui.rc
                            ../src/hi32-app-managed.png
                            ../src/managed.desktop
                            ../NEWS
                            ../TODO
                            ../admin
                            ../admin/CVS
                            ../admin/CVS/Root
                            ../admin/CVS/Repository
                            ../admin/CVS/Entries
                            ../admin/CVS/Template
                            ../admin/compile
                            ../admin/Doxyfile.global
                            ../admin/depcomp
                            ../admin/Makefile.common
                            ../admin/ltmain.sh
                            ../admin/config.pl
                            ../admin/configure.in.mi n
                            ../admin/config.guess
                            ../admin/acinclude.m4.in
                            ../admin/install-sh
                            ../admin/config.sub
                            ../admin/missing
                            ../admin/mkinstalldirs
                            ../admin/cvs.sh
                            ../admin/bcheck.pl
                            ../admin/nmcheck
                            ../admin/conf.change.pl
                            ../admin/am_edit
                            ../admin/libtool.m4.in
                            ../admin/ylwrap
                            ../admin/cvs-clean.pl
                            ../admin/debianrules
                            ../admin/detect-autoconf.sh
                            ../admin/ChangeLog
                            ../admin/Doxyfile.am
                            ../admin/configure.in.bo t.end
                            ../debug
                            ../debug/po
                            ../debug/po/Makefile
                            ../debug/doc
                            ../debug/doc/en
                            ../debug/doc/en/Makefile
                            ../debug/doc/en/index.cache.bz2
                            ../debug/doc/Makefile
                            ../debug/src
                            ../debug/src/Makefile
                            ../debug/src/.deps
                            ../debug/src/.deps/managed.Po
                            ../debug/src/.deps/main.Po
                            ../debug/src/.libs
                            ../debug/src/managed.moc
                            ../debug/src/managed
                            ../debug/src/managed.o
                            ../debug/src/main.o
                            ../debug/Makefile
                            ../debug/config.status
                            ../debug/libtool
                            ../debug/config.log
                            ../debug/config.h
                            ../debug/stamp-h1
                            ../aclocal.m4
                            ../README
                            ../configure
                            ../autom4te.cache
                            ../autom4te.cache/requests
                            ../autom4te.cache/output.0
                            ../autom4te.cache/traces.0
                            ../configure.in
                            ../subdirs
                            ../Makefile.am
                            ../Makefile.in
                            ../configure.files
                            ../configure.in.in
                            ../config.h.in
                            ../Makefile.cvs
                            ../acinclude.m4
                            ../managed.kdevelo p
                            ../stamp-h.in
                            ../AUTHORS
                            ../INSTALL
                            ../ChangeLog
                            ../COPYING
                            ../Doxyfile
                            ../templates
                            ../templates/h
                            ../templates/cpp
                            hattons@ljosalf r:~/code/c++/managed/


                            But, now I want to pull in stuff from boost, and Xerces. I know some of
                            it's just a question of time and experience, but there also seems to be
                            something fundamentally missing that would pull everything together. I'm
                            trying very hard not to draw comparrisons, but I've see some aspects of
                            programming managed more effectively than a lot of C++ stuff.
                            --
                            p->m == (*p).m == p[0].m

                            Modernize your infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise servers, cloud technology for IaaS, and SUSE's software-defined...

                            Mozilla is the not-for-profit behind the lightning fast Firefox browser. We put people over profit to give everyone more power online.

                            Comment

                            • Steven T. Hatton

                              #15
                              Re: Any authoritative reference on structuring (large-scale) projects?

                              Julie wrote:
                              [color=blue]
                              > "Steven T. Hatton" wrote:[color=green]
                              >>
                              >> Is there a more or less accepted authority describing how to structure a
                              >> project? I know Julie has asked about namespaces. That is certainly a
                              >> part of my question, but I want to know about the whole picture.[/color]
                              >
                              > Have you looked at the NASA SEL?
                              >
                              > I looked at that a *long* time ago, and don't remember anything about it,
                              > but it just popped into my head...[/color]

                              This is a living example of one of the most successful C++ dominated
                              software projects ever: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/

                              I recall looking at the NASA site a while back as well. The kind of stuff
                              I'm looking for is not the high-level abstraction, how to design your
                              interfaces between packages, etc., kind of literature. I want more
                              fundamental guidance on how to use the plethora of alternatives provided by
                              the features described in the Standard. I just read through Clause 3
                              (Chapter 3) of PL-C++03. This is out of date, but it will give a hint of
                              what the current document reads like. The stuff on name lookup is
                              mind-boggling. http://www.itga.com.au/~gnb/wp/cd2/

                              I do have a way of establishing a pretty powerful project structure in a
                              hurry. The KDE and KDevelop are doing a wonderful job. Unfortunately, some
                              of the outstanding performance is due to the contributions of uniquely
                              tallanted people, and not a codified approach. But it is open to
                              examination: http://ng-project.org/~kdevelop/apid.../inherits.html

                              The following is from a 'hello world' created by KDevelop:

                              hattons@ljosalf r:~/code/c++/managed/
                              Wed Apr 07 04:30:01:> find . -name "*"
                              ..
                              ../po
                              ../po/Makefile.am
                              ../po/Makefile.in
                              ../doc
                              ../doc/en
                              ../doc/en/Makefile.am
                              ../doc/en/Makefile.in
                              ../doc/en/index.docbook
                              ../doc/Makefile.am
                              ../doc/Makefile.in
                              ../src
                              ../src/hi16-app-managed.png
                              ../src/managed.cpp
                              ../src/managed.lsm
                              ../src/main.cpp
                              ../src/managed.h
                              ../src/Makefile.am
                              ../src/Makefile.in
                              ../src/managedui.rc
                              ../src/hi32-app-managed.png
                              ../src/managed.desktop
                              ../NEWS
                              ../TODO
                              ../admin
                              ../admin/CVS
                              ../admin/CVS/Root
                              ../admin/CVS/Repository
                              ../admin/CVS/Entries
                              ../admin/CVS/Template
                              ../admin/compile
                              ../admin/Doxyfile.global
                              ../admin/depcomp
                              ../admin/Makefile.common
                              ../admin/ltmain.sh
                              ../admin/config.pl
                              ../admin/configure.in.mi n
                              ../admin/config.guess
                              ../admin/acinclude.m4.in
                              ../admin/install-sh
                              ../admin/config.sub
                              ../admin/missing
                              ../admin/mkinstalldirs
                              ../admin/cvs.sh
                              ../admin/bcheck.pl
                              ../admin/nmcheck
                              ../admin/conf.change.pl
                              ../admin/am_edit
                              ../admin/libtool.m4.in
                              ../admin/ylwrap
                              ../admin/cvs-clean.pl
                              ../admin/debianrules
                              ../admin/detect-autoconf.sh
                              ../admin/ChangeLog
                              ../admin/Doxyfile.am
                              ../admin/configure.in.bo t.end
                              ../debug
                              ../debug/po
                              ../debug/po/Makefile
                              ../debug/doc
                              ../debug/doc/en
                              ../debug/doc/en/Makefile
                              ../debug/doc/en/index.cache.bz2
                              ../debug/doc/Makefile
                              ../debug/src
                              ../debug/src/Makefile
                              ../debug/src/.deps
                              ../debug/src/.deps/managed.Po
                              ../debug/src/.deps/main.Po
                              ../debug/src/.libs
                              ../debug/src/managed.moc
                              ../debug/src/managed
                              ../debug/src/managed.o
                              ../debug/src/main.o
                              ../debug/Makefile
                              ../debug/config.status
                              ../debug/libtool
                              ../debug/config.log
                              ../debug/config.h
                              ../debug/stamp-h1
                              ../aclocal.m4
                              ../README
                              ../configure
                              ../autom4te.cache
                              ../autom4te.cache/requests
                              ../autom4te.cache/output.0
                              ../autom4te.cache/traces.0
                              ../configure.in
                              ../subdirs
                              ../Makefile.am
                              ../Makefile.in
                              ../configure.files
                              ../configure.in.in
                              ../config.h.in
                              ../Makefile.cvs
                              ../acinclude.m4
                              ../managed.kdevelo p
                              ../stamp-h.in
                              ../AUTHORS
                              ../INSTALL
                              ../ChangeLog
                              ../COPYING
                              ../Doxyfile
                              ../templates
                              ../templates/h
                              ../templates/cpp
                              hattons@ljosalf r:~/code/c++/managed/


                              But, now I want to pull in stuff from boost, and Xerces. I know some of
                              it's just a question of time and experience, but there also seems to be
                              something fundamentally missing that would pull everything together. I'm
                              trying very hard not to draw comparrisons, but I've see some aspects of
                              programming managed more effectively than a lot of C++ stuff.
                              --
                              p->m == (*p).m == p[0].m

                              Modernize your infrastructure with SUSE Linux Enterprise servers, cloud technology for IaaS, and SUSE's software-defined...

                              Mozilla is the not-for-profit behind the lightning fast Firefox browser. We put people over profit to give everyone more power online.

                              Comment

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