Defining constants in classes

[Julie]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

> Well, if you top posted, you might actually sleep worse: excessive quoting[color=blue]
> is a copyright infringement![/color]

Never heard that one. I'd wait for a court ruling on that one, or at the very
least authoritive commentary from a copyright lawyer. I *HIGHLY* doubt that
there is any basis for copyright infringement as the OP should assume that
their comments are released into the public domain when posting to a public
forum. Again, my comments have just as much (or lack of) validity as yours --
the courts would have to rule on that one.
[color=blue]
> The issue of top-posting came up in a discussion amoung the moderators of
> comp.lang.c++.m oderated these days, too, although embedded into the bigger
> context of overquotes. Our current policy is effectively to reject articles
> on the basis of overquotes if the ratio between new material and quotes is
> too bad and there seems to be no reason for that much quoting.[/color]

As I said previously, NNTP is an outdated (and severely insufficient)
protocol. It needs to be expanded to add new required features such as the
ability to separate replies from new comments, and that would allow newsreaders
the ability to let the user decide how previous comments would be displayed:
top, bottom, not at all... Unfortunately, we are stuck w/ what we have now,
and find that such trivial issues regarding posting are cause to limit the
valid dialog on a subject.

[Claudio Puviani]

Re: Defining constants in classes

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alfps@start.no > wrote[color=blue]
> If you have any evidence that there was some informed, well-considered
> decision to disallow e.g.
>
>
> struct X
> {
> static double const = 1.23;
> };
>
> and
>
> struct Y
> {
> static char const s[] = "disallowed for Very Good Reasons";
> };
>
> then I as well as the OP and many others would like to know the reason(s).[/color]

It's very simple: in what compilation unit would the variable 'Y::s' be stored?
If the variable is defined in the class definition, the compiler/linker have to
somehow collaborate to avoid redundant definitions. By forcing static data
members to be defined outside of the class, the decision falls on the programmer
and not on some extension of the linker.

One can argue that the problem is already being addressed for templates, but
there, it's a necessity. With static data members, it would amount to nothing
more than syntactic sugar.

Claudio Puviani

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

* Julie <julie@aol.co m> schriebt:[color=blue][color=green]
> > Well, if you top posted, you might actually sleep worse: excessive quoting
> > is a copyright infringement![/color]
>
> I *HIGHLY* doubt that there is any basis for copyright infringement[/color]

I agree. Here Dietmar seems to be a victim of group thinking within the
clc++m moderator cliche. But since those guys are generally intelligent ones
it is perhaps more plausible that this is meant as irony. Difficult to tell,
these days. We have to use the American way now: "Note: above is irony".


[color=blue][color=green]
> > The issue of top-posting came up in a discussion amoung the moderators of
> > comp.lang.c++.m oderated these days, too, although embedded into the bigger
> > context of overquotes. Our current policy is effectively to reject articles
> > on the basis of overquotes if the ratio between new material and quotes is
> > too bad and there seems to be no reason for that much quoting.[/color]
>
> As I said previously, NNTP is an outdated (and severely insufficient)
> protocol. It needs to be expanded to add new required features such as the
> ability to separate replies from new comments, and that would allow newsreaders
> the ability to let the user decide how previous comments would be displayed:
> top, bottom, not at all... Unfortunately, we are stuck w/ what we have now,
> and find that such trivial issues regarding posting are cause to limit the
> valid dialog on a subject.[/color]

There is currently no way to infer automatically what the poster intends and
wants to convey to the reader.

Hence, it seems you've overstuffed yourself on Microsoft marketing, Julia.

I don't think it is a coincidence that you're both arguing for top-posting and
dragging in baby/manager-level Microsoft marketing -- for the "official"
definition of top-posting explicitly mentions Microsoft, idiot and newbie.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: Defining constants in classes

* "Claudio Puviani" <puviani@hotmai l.com> schriebt:[color=blue]
> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alfps@start.no > wrote[color=green]
> > If you have any evidence that there was some informed, well-considered
> > decision to disallow e.g.
> >
> >
> > struct X
> > {
> > static double const = 1.23;
> > };
> >
> > and
> >
> > struct Y
> > {
> > static char const s[] = "disallowed for Very Good Reasons";
> > };
> >
> > then I as well as the OP and many others would like to know the reason(s).[/color]
>
> It's very simple: in what compilation unit would the variable 'Y::s' be stored?[/color]

As with other namespace-level constants like


const char s[] = "a constant";


[color=blue]
> If the variable is defined in the class definition, the compiler/linker have to
> somehow collaborate to avoid redundant definitions.[/color]

That's somehow already the case for other constructs, including all
inline functions.

E.g., in

struct S
{
double x, y;

void mult( double s ){ x *= s; y *= s; }
};

the compiler and linker have to somehow collaborate on the definition of
function 'mult'.

Somehow that is not a problem at all.


[color=blue]
> By forcing static data
> members to be defined outside of the class, the decision falls on the programmer
> and not on some extension of the linker.[/color]

Do you think there was a decision to disallow certain constructs in
order to force the programmers to make decisions?

That, instead of the committee _not_ making a decision, they did make a
decision to force the programmers to have to make needless decisions?

I sincerely doubt that.



[color=blue]
> One can argue that the problem is already being addressed for templates, but
> there, it's a necessity. With static data members, it would amount to nothing
> more than syntactic sugar.[/color]

Do you think this would entail less efficient compilation and
linking, then?

[Default User]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

Julie wrote:
[color=blue]
> Never heard that one. I'd wait for a court ruling on that one, or at the very
> least authoritive commentary from a copyright lawyer. I *HIGHLY* doubt that
> there is any basis for copyright infringement as the OP should assume that
> their comments are released into the public domain when posting to a public
> forum. Again, my comments have just as much (or lack of) validity as yours --
> the courts would have to rule on that one.[/color]

That's not true at all. Where did you get such an idea? The only way to
have something enter the public domain is for the copyright to expire
(which takes a long time) or for the copyright holder to explicitly
place it into the public domain.



Brian Rodenborn

[Julie]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

"Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:[color=blue]
> Hence, it seems you've overstuffed yourself on Microsoft marketing, Julia.[/color]

Name's Julie.
[color=blue]
> I don't think it is a coincidence that you're both arguing for top-posting and
> dragging in baby/manager-level Microsoft marketing[/color]

I'm not formally arguing for or against top posting -- I'm advocating that it
should be a user-definiable choice in reading, which is currently not supported
in the NNTP message format.
[color=blue]
> -- for the "official"
> definition of top-posting explicitly mentions Microsoft, idiot and newbie.[/color]

Didn't know there was an official definition. I didn't realize that personal
preferences needed to be officially denigrated, but I guess that is a
consequence of intolerance.

No association w/ Microsoft.

If it is a universal law that all preferential top posters are idiots, then by
that law, I must be an idiot. Name calling, labels, etc. will not change my
preference, and honestly, I don't know what purpose it serves.

Good bye.

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

* Julie <julie@aol.co m> schriebt:[color=blue]
>
> I'm not formally arguing for or against top posting.
>
> If it is a universal law that all preferential top posters are idiots, then by
> that law, I must be an idiot.[/color]

[Dietmar Kuehl]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

Julie wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Well, if you top posted, you might actually sleep worse: excessive
>> quoting is a copyright infringement![/color]
>
> Never heard that one. I'd wait for a court ruling on that one, or at the
> very least authoritive commentary from a copyright lawyer.[/color]

You are free to believe whatever you want! You might want to have a look
at <http://www.copyright.c om/CopyrightResour ces/default.asp> although
you might, of course, consider the stuff there to be still part of a pun.
[color=blue]
> I *HIGHLY* doubt
> that there is any basis for copyright infringement as the OP should assume
> that their comments are released into the public domain when posting to a
> public forum.[/color]

Well, have a look the above mentioned documents: essentially, everything
written here is protected by copyrights unless the author explicitly
puts the stuff into the public domain. Quoting everything and adding
just a minor statement does not fall under the "fair use" clause
mentioned there.
[color=blue]
> Again, my comments have just as much (or lack of) validity as
> yours -- the courts would have to rule on that one.[/color]

Note, that this is in no way any kind of fun: although your above
statement is not really wrong, I'm positive that I'm much closer to the
mark than you are!
[color=blue]
> As I said previously, NNTP is an outdated (and severely insufficient)
> protocol. It needs to be expanded to add new required features such as
> the ability to separate replies from new comments, and that would allow
> newsreaders the ability to let the user decide how previous comments would
> be displayed:[/color]

Actually, I don't think that this is any sort of a protocol thing!
Quoting other's material is an act of authoring by itself. [Ab]Using
quotes in certain ways can provide quite a different context than the
whole quote or none at all could give and can convey rather different
meanings. Haven't you ever seen someone giving eg. an answer to a
question by just quoting the relevant portions of an article?
--
<mailto:dietmar _kuehl@yahoo.co m> <http://www.dietmar-kuehl.de/>
Phaidros eaSE - Easy Software Engineering: <http://www.phaidros.co m/>

[Dietmar Kuehl]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

Alf P. Steinbach wrote:[color=blue]
> I agree. Here Dietmar seems to be a victim of group thinking within the
> clc++m moderator cliche.[/color]

Not at all: as moderators we decided early on that we are not going
do anything about copyright infringements in articles we are
processing. That is, we don't do any kind of legal assessment to
decide whether we post or reject an article. We solely base our
decison on the content of the article.
[color=blue]
> But since those guys are generally intelligent ones
> it is perhaps more plausible that this is meant as irony. Difficult to
> tell, these days. We have to use the American way now: "Note: above is
> irony".[/color]

No, it is not irony! This stuff is dead serious. Have a look at
<http://www.copyright.c om/CopyrightResour ces/default.asp> for some basic
information (note, that although this page talks about the U.S.
constituition, U.S. Federal stuff, etc. the overall issue applies to all
nations which have ratified the Berner Convention). I think I came across
a bunch of documents written by lawyers and dealing specifically with
copyright legislation applied to UseNet:
- there are copyrights on all articles written (and it is actually not
even always clear to whome these belong: if the article is written
as part of normal work, the copyright might be owned by the author's
employer - thus be particularily careful when quoting someone from
SCO...)
- author's are bound to the "fair use" paragraph when quoting others
- ... and this is still no irony at all
--
<mailto:dietmar _kuehl@yahoo.co m> <http://www.dietmar-kuehl.de/>
Phaidros eaSE - Easy Software Engineering: <http://www.phaidros.co m/>

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

* Dietmar Kuehl <dietmar_kuehl@ yahoo.com> schriebt:[color=blue]
> Alf P. Steinbach wrote:[color=green]
> > I agree. Here Dietmar seems to be a victim of group thinking within the
> > clc++m moderator cliche.[/color]
>
> Not at all[/color]

Good to hear.


[color=blue][color=green]
> > But since those guys are generally intelligent ones
> > it is perhaps more plausible that this is meant as irony. Difficult to
> > tell, these days. We have to use the American way now: "Note: above is
> > irony".[/color]
>
> No, it is not irony![/color]

Oooh, bad. Bad.

[color=blue]
> This stuff is dead serious. Have a look at
> <http://www.copyright.c om/CopyrightResour ces/default.asp> for some basic
> information (note, that although this page talks about the U.S.
> constituition, U.S. Federal stuff, etc. the overall issue applies to all
> nations which have ratified the Berner Convention).[/color]

No thanks, and no need.

As a practical matter we can just wait till someone's been convicted in
court for copyright infringement or whatever, due to Usenet article quoting.

And as a service to society at large we _should_ do that, and perhaps more.

Being afraid of lawyers' abuse of the courts is a sickness that has infested
modern Western society. For example, in one case the relatives of a British
base jumper (who couldn't wait till he was resqued but decided to see whether
the law of gravity had perhaps been cancelled) who marooned himself halfway up
a Norwegian mountain, sued the voluntary, unpaid resquers from Red Cross etc.
We should not be afraid to help people just because they might sue us for not
helping enough, or perhaps for not taking the cost of sending up a helicopter
with a megaphone shouting "don't jump half a kilometer down you idiot, it'll
kill you!"; we shouldn't be afraid to quote anything we want on the Usenet.

I'm glad to hear that clc++m moderators decided against succumbing to the
sickness, and I'm sad to see arguments here that one should perhaps, for
one's own good presumably (certainly not other's good), decide to be sick.

[Programmer Dude]

Re: Defining constants in classes

Julie wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> (I have never understood why [top posting] is a big deal - it makes
>> life so much faster if you don't have to scroll, especially for a
>> short post like this.[/color]
>
> I agree 100%.[/color]

Make that two.

And, as you point out, it's pointless to argue against those who
are against top posting--let alone argue in *favor* of it.

But given that people increasingly don't edit well, I very much
prefer seeing new content at top where I can quickly determine if
the post is worth reading in detail. When I pull up a message and
all I see are quotes.... I usually pull up the NEXT message!

--
|_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack. com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ _______________ ____| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL |
|______________ _______________ _______________ _|_____________ __________|

[Pete Becker]

Re: Defining constants in classes

"Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:[color=blue]
>
> If you have any evidence that there was some informed, well-considered
> decision to disallow e.g.[/color]

I was there. You weren't. I gave you the explanation. Sorry you don't
like it.

--

Pete Becker
Dinkumware, Ltd. (http://www.dinkumware.com)

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: Defining constants in classes

* Pete Becker <petebecker@acm .org> schriebt:[color=blue]
> "Alf P. Steinbach" wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > If you have any evidence that there was some informed, well-considered
> > decision to disallow e.g.[/color]
>
> I was there. You weren't. I gave you the explanation. Sorry you don't
> like it.[/color]

It's not that I don't like, it's that it amounted to just a "because";
saying that only compile time constants deserve to be allowed because
only they deserve to be allowed, as you did, is a bit circular.

So what _were_ the reasons?

Or, what was _one_ reason?

[Alf P. Steinbach]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

* dietmar_kuehl@y ahoo.com (Dietmar Kuehl) schriebt:[color=blue]
>
> There is a signature around which actually brings it to the point
> quite well but I don't have the exact wording.[/color]

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

[Stewart Gordon]

Re: top-posting to C++ newsgroups (Was: Defining constants in classes)

Dietmar Kuehl wrote:

<snip>[color=blue]
> There is a[/color]

There are several versions actually.
[color=blue]
> signature around which actually brings it to the point quite well but I
> don't have the exact wording.[/color]
<snip>

--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.