learn C++ or C#

[Daniel James]

Re: learn C++ or C#

In article news:<OZyOgzF6I HA.2260@TK2MSFT NGP03.phx.gbl>, Daniel wrote:

If I haven't made substantial investment in either C++ or C#, which
language would the experts recommend I become well acquainted with?

It depends what you want to do, and where you want to do it.

C++ is the more powerful language but there is more to learn, C# is
relatively simple but less powerful. OTOH there are more productivity
tools for C# (largely because it has a simpler syntax, so the tools are
easier to write).

C++ can be used to write software for a huge range of systems -- not
only Windows but also Mac, linux and others (including mini and
mainframe computers, and embedded systems). C# targets a virtual machine
architecture, so C# programs can run only on computers for which such a
runtime (a JIT compiler or an interpreter) is available -- that means
Windows, certainly, and platforms that support Mono (an Open Source
NET-compatible runtime); but not nearly so many as can run C++
programs.

C++ can be used to write system-level code: operating systems, device
drivers, etc.. Although there are research projects and proof of concept
implementation that use C# for these things, current C# implementations
do not allow C# to be used for this kind of work with mainstream OSes --
you can't write even a Windows device driver in C#. If you want to do
driver work then choose C++ (or even C).

A good implementation plan is to write your back-end code -- the
business logic of your application -- in a fast portable language (such
as C++) so that it can be built to run on the maximum possible number of
platforms, and then to write a GUI wrapper around it for each platform
on which you want to ship ... you might choose to write such a GUI
wrapper in C# for a Windows version of your software, though other
possibilities (including VB, Java, Python, etc) exist.

Alternatively you could write your application logic in a webserver
format and use your platform's browser for the GUI, which would save you
writing any platform-specific GUI code at all.

Personally, I usually write the application back-end in C++ and then
write the Windows-specific GUI wrapper in C++ using MFC ... but then I'm
from a C++ background and I just do what comes naturally.

Cheers,
Daniel.

[Giovanni Dicanio]

Re: learn C++ or C#


"Daniel James"

C# targets a virtual machine
architecture, so C# programs can run only on computers for which such a
runtime (a JIT compiler or an interpreter) is available -- that means
Windows, certainly, and platforms that support Mono (an Open Source
NET-compatible runtime);

I've heard about Mono before. But I wonder: what is the level of
implementation of Mono?
Is Mono as robust as the Microsoft .NET framework implementation?
Does Mono fully support C# 3?
Does Mono fully support .NET Framework 3.5 ?

Thanks,
Giovanni

[Ken Foskey]

Re: learn C++ or C#

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:46:56 +0200, Giovanni Dicanio wrote:

I've heard about Mono before. But I wonder: what is the level of
implementation of Mono?
Is Mono as robust as the Microsoft .NET framework implementation?

A lot of the .net framework is directly from Microsoft. A lot is
implemented a totally different way. I expect that it will be very
compliant as time progresses just not now.

Does Mono fully support C# 3?

I cannot compile anymore:

[Task:File=/home/ken/projects/Capture/Capture/inMatch.cs, Line=266,
Column=32, Type=Error, Priority=Normal , Description=Fea ture `query
expressions' cannot be used because it is not part of the C# 2.0 language
specification(C S1644)]

Does Mono fully support .NET Framework 3.5 ?

definitely not.

Mono is about portability you have to build with that in mind and you can
be fully portable. I write my test classes on Console and run them on
Linux as well. I have socket based tests and I need two machine to make
it work.

Ken

[David Wilkinson]

Re: learn C++ or C#

Daniel wrote:

If I haven't made substantial investment in either C++ or C#, which language
would the experts recommend I become well acquainted with?

Daniel:

As you are posting in dotnet groups, you should know that there are actually
three languages

C++
C#
C++/CLI

Up to now you have been using C++/CLI, which is the wrong choice if you want to
write GUI Windows applications, because Microsoft no longer recommends C++/CLi
for writing GUI .NET applications.

Assuming that you want to write GUI applications for Windows, you need a library.

If you use native C++, you will probably want to use the MFC library (which does
not come with VC Express. by the way). MFC is old, and not very elegant, and has
quite a learning curve. But there is a huge base of available code samples for
it, and Microsoft is once again working on improving it (after many years of
neglect). MFC is not portable to other platforms, but if you separate the
back-end of your application from the GUI, you can port the back-end to other
platforms such as MAC/linux. For me, one of the advantages of going the MFC
route is that you can use static linking, which means that you can deploy
without installing any components on the target machine.

[Note that the main newsgroups for standard C++ are microsoft.publi c.vc.language
and microsoft.publi c.vc.mfc]

If you use C#, you will use the .NET library, which is more elegant, and
probably easier to learn than MFC. If you go this route, you need to make sure
that the appropriate version of the .NET framework is installed on the target
system.

There are also hybrid methods, where you write your back-end in standard C++,
the GUI in C#, and build an interface layer using C++/CLI. This may be
appropriate if you have a large amount of legacy C++ code, but it means you have
to learn and understand three languages.

Feel free to ask more questions. This is an important decision, and you should
be sure you make the one that is correct for you.

--
David Wilkinson
Visual C++ MVP

[Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]]

Re: learn C++ or C#

Ken Foskey wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:46:56 +0200, Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>
>

>I've heard about Mono before. But I wonder: what is the level of
>implementati on of Mono?
>Is Mono as robust as the Microsoft .NET framework implementation?

>
A lot of the .net framework is directly from Microsoft. A lot is
implemented a totally different way. I expect that it will be very
compliant as time progresses just not now.
>

>Does Mono fully support C# 3?

>
I cannot compile anymore:
>
[Task:File=/home/ken/projects/Capture/Capture/inMatch.cs, Line=266,
Column=32, Type=Error, Priority=Normal , Description=Fea ture `query
expressions' cannot be used because it is not part of the C# 2.0
language specification(C S1644)]

Sounds like a command line option, or lack thereof, put you in C# 2
compatibility mode. Certainly the compiler wouldn't be describing a feature
such as LINQ query expressions if it didn't understand it.

>

>Does Mono fully support .NET Framework 3.5 ?

>
definitely not.
>
Mono is about portability you have to build with that in mind and you
can be fully portable. I write my test classes on Console and run
them on Linux as well. I have socket based tests and I need two
machine to make it work.
>
Ken

[Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]]

Re: learn C++ or C#

Assuming that you want to write GUI applications for Windows, you

need a library.
If you use native C++, you will probably want to use the MFC library
(which does not come with VC Express. by the way). MFC is old, and
not very elegant, and has quite a learning curve. But there is a huge

ATL/WTL follow modern C++ principles much better than MFC, and should
probably be the library of choice for C++ Windows-only GUI.

base of available code samples for it, and Microsoft is once again
working on improving it (after many years of neglect). MFC is not
portable to other platforms, but if you separate the back-end of your
application from the GUI, you can port the back-end to other
platforms such as MAC/linux. For me, one of the advantages of going
the MFC route is that you can use static linking, which means that
you can deploy without installing any components on the target
machine.
[Note that the main newsgroups for standard C++ are
microsoft.publi c.vc.language and microsoft.publi c.vc.mfc]
>
If you use C#, you will use the .NET library, which is more elegant,
and probably easier to learn than MFC. If you go this route, you need
to make sure that the appropriate version of the .NET framework is
installed on the target system.
>
There are also hybrid methods, where you write your back-end in
standard C++, the GUI in C#, and build an interface layer using
C++/CLI. This may be appropriate if you have a large amount of legacy
C++ code, but it means you have to learn and understand three
languages.
Feel free to ask more questions. This is an important decision, and
you should be sure you make the one that is correct for you.

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: learn C++ or C#

On Jul 18, 2:56 pm, "Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]" <r...@nospam.no spamwrote:

[Task:File=/home/ken/projects/Capture/Capture/inMatch.cs, Line=266,
Column=32, Type=Error, Priority=Normal , Description=Fea ture `query
expressions' cannot be used because it is not part of the C# 2.0
language specification(C S1644)]

>
Sounds like a command line option, or lack thereof, put you in C# 2
compatibility mode.  Certainly the compiler wouldn't be describing a feature
such as LINQ query expressions if it didn't understand it.

Indeed, you need the command line option -langversion:lin q but to
quote the documentation:

<quote>
This enables the C# 3.0 support. Only a few features of C# 3.0 have
been implemented in the Mono C# compiler, so not everything is
available.
</quote>

:(

Jon

[Larry Smith]

Re: learn C++ or C#

>Assuming that you want to write GUI applications for Windows, you

>need a library.
>If you use native C++, you will probably want to use the MFC library
>(which does not come with VC Express. by the way). MFC is old, and
>not very elegant, and has quite a learning curve. But there is a huge

>
>
ATL/WTL follow modern C++ principles much better than MFC, and should
probably be the library of choice for C++ Windows-only GUI.

WTL still wasn't officially supported by MSFT the last time I worked with it
(3+ years ago now). There was also no documentation. A quick check and it
still doesn't appear to be supported. This may or may not affect someone's
decision to use it but it is a serious consideration. I do agree however
that it's better than MFC which I abandoned in favour of WTL. Note however
that ATL is incredibly arcane and very difficult to master. It's not for the
weak and most programmers can't handle it. People who care about the
integrity of their programs should seriously consider other choices before
choosing it (and there aren't many unfortunately).

[David Wilkinson]

Re: learn C++ or C#

Ben Voigt [C++ MVP] wrote:

ATL/WTL follow modern C++ principles much better than MFC, and should
probably be the library of choice for C++ Windows-only GUI.

Ben:

Yes, I think about this sometimes. But I am not sure that WTL provides as many
features as MFC, and it is not supported by Microsoft, which makes me nervous. I
also have a huge investment in MFC, both in knowledge and code base. I wish MFC
were more elegant, but I have gotten used to it.

If this old programmer is going to learn something new, I think it's going to be
C# and .NET.

--
David Wilkinson
Visual C++ MVP

[Daniel]

Re: learn C++ or C#

I had forgotten the proper terminology. I meant to ask whether C# was a low
level language to the same extent as C++.

Daniel

"Peter Duniho" <NpOeStPeAdM@nn owslpianmk.comw rote in message
news:op.ueg1rnw 48jd0ej@petes-computer.local. ..

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:28:11 -0700, Daniel <newsonly@cable one.netwrote:
>

>Does C# have as much meticulous control over the micro matters as C++
>does?

>
"Meticulous control" and "micro matters" are not well-defined terminology
in the field of programming. It's not possible to answer that question
without you providing it in a more detailed, less ambiguous way.
>
In any case, I doubt that's a question you really need an answer to. As
has been explained previously, it really has more to do with what you're
trying to write. While there are specific differences between each
language, with only some exceptions what you can do in one, you can do in
the other. But C# is generally better-suited to dealing with .NET, while
C++ is likely to be better suited if you're having to deal with unmanaged
APIs.
>
So the proper choice of language has more to do with what you're going to
use it for than in differences between the languages in the abstract.
>
Pete

[Daniel]

Re: learn C++ or C#

ok. Thanks.

"Giovanni Dicanio" <gdicanio@_NOSP AM_email_DOT_it wrote in message
news:uyIJu8K6IH A.1592@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

>
"Arne Vajhøj" <arne@vajhoej.d kha scritto nel messaggio
news:487fdc67$0 $90274$14726298 @news.sunsite.d k...
>

>First I will make a prediction: the .vc guys will suggest C++ and
>the .csharp guys will suggest C#.
>>
>:-)

>
I'm a .vc guy :-)
>
>

>If you want to write general business apps, then I will suggest C#.

>
I agree with that.
>
>

>If you have special requirements for real time, embedded, device
>driver programming and similar then go for C++.

>
Moreover, if you want to build Windows shell extensions, you should use
C++.
>
If you want crossplatform code, you should use C++ (with proper libraries
like wxWidgets for the GUI).
>
If you want to build small .exe's easy to deploy (no need of huge runtime
to distribute), you should use C++ (with CRT/MFC/ATL statically linked).
>
If you learn C++ first, then moving to C# is a very easy path, as others
wisely wrote.
Instead, the opposite is not true.
>
Both languages have pro's and con's: choose the better tool for your
particular job.
>
Giovanni
>
>
>

[Daniel]

Re: learn C++ or C#

What is MSI? What do you mean by "MSI custom actions"?

Daniel

"Pavel Minaev" <int19h@gmail.c omwrote in message
news:f21ed502-645b-40e9-a5a0-d54cc68a9957@z1 6g2000prn.googl egroups.com...
On Jul 18, 2:31 am, "Daniel" <newso...@cable one.netwrote:

If I haven't made substantial investment in either C++ or C#, which
language
would the experts recommend I become well acquainted with?

By the way, one reason why a .NET developer might want to learn C++ or
at least C is to be able to write MSI custom actions for installers
(while it's possible to create managed actions, there is a number of
issues and technical difficulties associated with them).

[Daniel]

Re: learn C++ or C#

Thanks.

"David Wilkinson" <no-reply@effisols. comwrote in message
news:eeyAnVN6IH A.4352@TK2MSFTN GP03.phx.gbl...

Daniel wrote:

>If I haven't made substantial investment in either C++ or C#, which
>language would the experts recommend I become well acquainted with?

>
Daniel:
>
As you are posting in dotnet groups, you should know that there are
actually three languages
>
C++
C#
C++/CLI
>
Up to now you have been using C++/CLI, which is the wrong choice if you
want to write GUI Windows applications, because Microsoft no longer
recommends C++/CLi for writing GUI .NET applications.
>
Assuming that you want to write GUI applications for Windows, you need a
library.
>
If you use native C++, you will probably want to use the MFC library
(which does not come with VC Express. by the way). MFC is old, and not
very elegant, and has quite a learning curve. But there is a huge base of
available code samples for it, and Microsoft is once again working on
improving it (after many years of neglect). MFC is not portable to other
platforms, but if you separate the back-end of your application from the
GUI, you can port the back-end to other platforms such as MAC/linux. For
me, one of the advantages of going the MFC route is that you can use
static linking, which means that you can deploy without installing any
components on the target machine.
>
[Note that the main newsgroups for standard C++ are
microsoft.publi c.vc.language and microsoft.publi c.vc.mfc]
>
If you use C#, you will use the .NET library, which is more elegant, and
probably easier to learn than MFC. If you go this route, you need to make
sure that the appropriate version of the .NET framework is installed on
the target system.
>
There are also hybrid methods, where you write your back-end in standard
C++, the GUI in C#, and build an interface layer using C++/CLI. This may
be appropriate if you have a large amount of legacy C++ code, but it means
you have to learn and understand three languages.
>
Feel free to ask more questions. This is an important decision, and you
should be sure you make the one that is correct for you.
>
--
David Wilkinson
Visual C++ MVP

[Peter Duniho]

Re: learn C++ or C#

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:40:45 -0700, Daniel <newsonly@cable one.netwrote:

I had forgotten the proper terminology. I meant to ask whether C# was a
low
level language to the same extent as C++.

I guess I would describe C++ as being "lower level" than C#. However, if
you're writing .NET code the difference doesn't matter. C++ has roughly
the same degree of "high level" features that C# has and vice a versa, and
even in C# you can write "unsafe" code to do certain "low level" things.
The main limitation with C# is that if you write C# code, it has to
execute in the managed environment, which excludes it from certain kinds
of applications (already discussed elsewhere in these threads).

Pete

[Pavel Minaev]

Re: learn C++ or C#

On Jul 18, 1:36 pm, Daniel James <wastebas...@no spam.aaisp.orgw rote:

A good implementation plan is to write your back-end code -- the
business logic of your application -- in a fast portable language (such
as C++) so that it can be built to run on the maximum possible number of
platforms, and then to write a GUI wrapper around it for each platform
on which you want to ship ... you might choose to write such a GUI
wrapper in C# for a Windows version of your software, though other
possibilities (including VB, Java, Python, etc) exist.

I disagree about the "business logic in C++" part. In practice,
standard C++ tends to be too low-level, verbose, and overcomplicated
for many common patterns that arise when developing a typical business
layer in many desktop and LOB applications. I'd still recommend C# for
that.

Leave C++ for tightly optimized algorithm implementations , device
drivers, shell plugins, MSI custom actions, etc.