Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

**=?Utf-8?B?UGV0ZXIgQnJvbWJlcmcgW0MjIE1WUF0=?=** · Jun 14 '07, 06:05 PM

RE: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Not to beat a dead horse, Sloan, but there are several excellent VB.NET to C#
converters out there.
Peter
--
Site: http://www.eggheadcafe.com
UnBlog: http://petesbloggerama.blogspot.com
Short urls & more: http://ittyurl.net

"sloan" wrote:

I found these (2 links below). Does anyone know of any (neutral) reference
sites for this kind of information?
>

Page not found - IT Jungle

http://www.itjungle.com/tug/tug121406-story03.html

Microsoft's Visual Basic 6 and Visual Basic.NET language is taking a serious
beating in the development cubicles of the United States and Canada.
>
>

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2065392,00.asp

Study: Developer Use of Visual Basic Plummets
>
>
>
I need concrete information, not holy wars.
>
>
We have this product we bought out from someone, and its in vb.net. We've
been trying to find a developer for it.
Replies to the job are bad.
>
I don't know if its just a good market here (RDU, NC), our location (Durham)
or a trend that MS developers are less and less attracted to vb.net jobs.
>
I don't want to convert this entire application to C# just for the sake of
it......but man.
>
...........
>
This is also sparked that I was at TechEd2007 last week, and:
>
Number of C# samples seen: >100
Number of VB.Net samples seen: 3
Number of VB.Net samples seen, just to prove it'll work with something else
(C#) : 2
>
Again, looking for concrete trends and information. Not Holy War material.
Circa 2007 or late 2006 would be nice as well. I found a bunch of stuff
dated 2004.
>
If you have counter information that VB.net is healthy, growing then let me
know that too. I'm not looking for just a one sided argument if 2 sides
exist.
>
I also found this:

Page not found - TIOBE

http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index

>
but it gives percentages, not numbers.
>
-0.85% (vb) against 2,000,000 (make up number) means 17,000 developers. The
total number means something here I think.
>
Thanks......
...............
>
I am posting to
microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.vb
>
so I might get both sides.
>
>
>
I am not slamming VB.NET, I'm only posting links to stuff I've found on the
subject.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

**sloan** · Jun 14 '07, 06:05 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Yeah. I kinda know the path to take if the decision was made to translate
it.

I don't have to be convinced. My manager(s) have to be.

"Peter Bromberg [C# MVP]" <pbromberg@yaho o.yabbadabbadoo .comwrote in
message news:0783B667-393B-4FA4-A8F9-2A08627D97CC@mi crosoft.com...

Not to beat a dead horse, Sloan, but there are several excellent VB.NET to

C#

converters out there.
Peter
--
Site: http://www.eggheadcafe.com
UnBlog: http://petesbloggerama.blogspot.com
Short urls & more: http://ittyurl.net
>
>
>
>
"sloan" wrote:
>

I found these (2 links below). Does anyone know of any (neutral)

reference

sites for this kind of information?

Page not found - IT Jungle

http://www.itjungle.com/tug/tug121406-story03.html

Microsoft's Visual Basic 6 and Visual Basic.NET language is taking a

serious

beating in the development cubicles of the United States and Canada.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2065392,00.asp

Study: Developer Use of Visual Basic Plummets

I need concrete information, not holy wars.

We have this product we bought out from someone, and its in vb.net.

We've

been trying to find a developer for it.
Replies to the job are bad.

I don't know if its just a good market here (RDU, NC), our location

(Durham)

or a trend that MS developers are less and less attracted to vb.net

jobs.

I don't want to convert this entire application to C# just for the sake

of

it......but man.

...........

This is also sparked that I was at TechEd2007 last week, and:

Number of C# samples seen: >100
Number of VB.Net samples seen: 3
Number of VB.Net samples seen, just to prove it'll work with something

else

(C#) : 2

Again, looking for concrete trends and information. Not Holy War

material.

Circa 2007 or late 2006 would be nice as well. I found a bunch of stuff
dated 2004.

If you have counter information that VB.net is healthy, growing then let

me

know that too. I'm not looking for just a one sided argument if 2 sides
exist.

I also found this:

Page not found - TIOBE

http://www.tiobe.com/index.htm?tiobe_index

but it gives percentages, not numbers.

-0.85% (vb) against 2,000,000 (make up number) means 17,000 developers.

The

total number means something here I think.

Thanks......
...............

I am posting to
microsoft.publi c.dotnet.langua ges.vb

so I might get both sides.

I am not slamming VB.NET, I'm only posting links to stuff I've found on

the

subject.

**Mr. Arnold** · Jun 14 '07, 06:15 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

There are a lot of legacy applications still written in VB 6. If it's not
broke, then don't fix it.

I have been in shops here in the US where the decision was between Java and
..Net, and each time the decision was made to go to .Net.

Jobs are plentiful here in the US for C# and VB.NET programmers.

What some programmer is saying while setting at his or her disk and what
management needs for cost justification are two different things, believe
me.

**Samuel R. Neff** · Jun 14 '07, 06:45 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Here's some links from info based on O'Reilly book sales which shows
c# up and vb way down.

Radar - O’Reilly

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/08/programming_language_trends_1.html

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

Radar - O’Reilly

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/04/book_sales_as_a.html

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

There are many things that can explain this besides popularity of
languages, but it is something concrete to point to.

Personally, if you're a c# shop then I would convert the app. It'll
be much better for you in the long run (and I'm a former
vba/vb6/vb.net developer).

HTH,

Sam

------------------------------------------------------------
We're hiring! B-Line Medical is seeking .NET
Developers for exciting positions in medical product
development in MD/DC. Work with a variety of technologies
in a relaxed team environment. See ads on Dice.com.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:34:12 -0400, "sloan" <sloan@ipass.ne twrote:

>I found these (2 links below). Does anyone know of any (neutral) reference
>sites for this kind of information?
>

**sloan** · Jun 14 '07, 07:55 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Thanks Sam.

Very "concrete-ish".

"Samuel R. Neff" <samuelneff@nom ail.comwrote in message
news:4u2373t8l5 oav53ljk6cab99r n35fkitv8@4ax.c om...

>
Here's some links from info based on O'Reilly book sales which shows
c# up and vb way down.
>
>

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/20..._trends_1.html

>

Radar - O’Reilly

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/04/book_sales_as_a.html

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

>
There are many things that can explain this besides popularity of
languages, but it is something concrete to point to.
>
>
Personally, if you're a c# shop then I would convert the app. It'll
be much better for you in the long run (and I'm a former
vba/vb6/vb.net developer).
>
HTH,
>
Sam
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
We're hiring! B-Line Medical is seeking .NET
Developers for exciting positions in medical product
development in MD/DC. Work with a variety of technologies
in a relaxed team environment. See ads on Dice.com.
>
>
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:34:12 -0400, "sloan" <sloan@ipass.ne twrote:
>

I found these (2 links below). Does anyone know of any (neutral)

reference

sites for this kind of information?

**Mr. Arnold** · Jun 14 '07, 08:15 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"sloan" <sloan@ipass.ne twrote in message
news:%23W1J93qr HHA.1864@TK2MSF TNGP04.phx.gbl. ..

>
Yeah. I kinda know the path to take if the decision was made to translate
it.
>
I don't have to be convinced. My manager(s) have to be.

And you're not going to convince management with some articles off of the
Internet. You had better show cost justification as to why management should
do something.

You had better show management the bottom line profits for the department
and the company as a whole with cost justification as to why.

You had better show some dollars and cents as to why management is going to
or should do anything. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time and
management's.

**Tom Leylan** · Jun 14 '07, 11:25 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...

There are a lot of legacy applications still written in VB 6. If it's not
broke, then don't fix it.

If we're reciting adages: "Change is the only constant". Remember Sears,
the "former" leading U.S. retailer? Why bother to change if it ain't broke?
Well perhaps because somebody who doesn't agree with your definition of
"broke" is going to usurp your position.

Might there be a lot of legacy apps written in BASIC running under CP/M?
Let's say there are 10,000 of them, does this make it a "good" solution?
I'd fire any manager who told me to retain old VB 6 code simply because "it
ain't broke." Perhaps they don't understand the term broke and are simply
hoping to retire before they need to learn something new.

"Manage change or change management."

**Mr. Arnold** · Jun 14 '07, 11:55 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"Tom Leylan" <tleylan@nospam .netwrote in message
news:%23N8OKmtr HHA.4548@TK2MSF TNGP03.phx.gbl. ..

"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...

>There are a lot of legacy applications still written in VB 6. If it's not
>broke, then don't fix it.

>
If we're reciting adages: "Change is the only constant". Remember Sears,
the "former" leading U.S. retailer? Why bother to change if it ain't
broke? Well perhaps because somebody who doesn't agree with your
definition of "broke" is going to usurp your position.

I don't even know what you're talking about here. The condition of some
company and its state has nothing to do with some programmer telling
management that change is needed without cost justification to management.

I worked in a multi, multi too many multi billion dollars company that
wouldn't go to .NET. No programming manager or director could convince all
of management that the path to take was to go to .NET. It didn't happen
until such time that outside consultants and auditors laied out the cost
justifications.

Without cost justification to present to management, which they can in turn
present to upper management, all you're doing is blowing smoke.

>
Might there be a lot of legacy apps written in BASIC running under CP/M?
Let's say there are 10,000 of them, does this make it a "good" solution?

It has nothing to do with it being a good solution. It has to do with cost
justifcation. If you can't prove the justification for the change of this
nature, then it's not changing.

I'd fire any manager who told me to retain old VB 6 code simply because
"it ain't broke." Perhaps they don't understand the term broke and are
simply hoping to retire before they need to learn something new.
>

It's ovious that you have not been in management with a statement like that.

They said that about Cobol too running on the big iron horse mainframes.
Nether one of them have gone anywhere, because to push those transactions,
companies are still using the solutions. You got to have some kind of cost
justification to prove to management that change is required, otherwise, it
not going to happen as easily as you think it should happen.

"Manage change or change management."

And about that above statement there, what will change is you hitting the
streets as they force you out the door, by any means necessary, with you
wondering what happened, believe me. :)

**Samuel R. Neff** · Jun 15 '07, 01:55 AM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Sounds like you need management with vision to see a good thing
without having to spend a boatload on studies and analysis (sometimes
it's not necessary).

Sam

------------------------------------------------------------
We're hiring! B-Line Medical is seeking .NET
Developers for exciting positions in medical product
development in MD/DC. Work with a variety of technologies
in a relaxed team environment. See ads on Dice.com.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:49:11 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote:

>I worked in a multi, multi too many multi billion dollars company that
>wouldn't go to .NET. No programming manager or director could convince all
>of management that the path to take was to go to .NET. It didn't happen
>until such time that outside consultants and auditors laied out the cost
>justifications .
>
>Without cost justification to present to management, which they can in turn
>present to upper management, all you're doing is blowing smoke.
>

**Tom Leylan** · Jun 15 '07, 03:15 AM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...

>
"Tom Leylan" <tleylan@nospam .netwrote in message
news:%23N8OKmtr HHA.4548@TK2MSF TNGP03.phx.gbl. ..

>"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...

>>There are a lot of legacy applications still written in VB 6. If it's
>>not broke, then don't fix it.

>>
>If we're reciting adages: "Change is the only constant". Remember Sears,
>the "former" leading U.S. retailer? Why bother to change if it ain't
>broke? Well perhaps because somebody who doesn't agree with your
>definition of "broke" is going to usurp your position.

>
I don't even know what you're talking about here. The condition of some
company and its state has nothing to do with some programmer telling
management that change is needed without cost justification to management.

Who said anything about some programmer? Sears management couldn't see what
was broken... perhaps they didn't hire the correct consultants?

I worked in a multi, multi too many multi billion dollars company that
wouldn't go to .NET. No programming manager or director could convince all
of management that the path to take was to go to .NET. It didn't happen
until such time that outside consultants and auditors laied out the cost
justifications.

The question wasn't about developing in .Net. Many multi-billion dollar
companies (and smaller) pay for software that increases their productivity.
I doubt that they check the language that Outlook was written in before
sending an e-mail. But you've also just pointed out they made the switch to
..Net.

>Might there be a lot of legacy apps written in BASIC running under CP/M?
>Let's say there are 10,000 of them, does this make it a "good" solution?

>
It has nothing to do with it being a good solution. It has to do with cost
justifcation. If you can't prove the justification for the change of this
nature, then it's not changing.

It will change... a year or two after it should have changed when it would
have cost less and could have been at an acceptable pace. When the
cost-justified need finally hits home the fix is 10 man-years away from
completion and they are plainly losing revenue while it is being developed.
In many cases a competing company (who added the new features) surpasses the
market leader and the game is over. Where is VisiCalc, Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro
Pro? Do you have a Novell network? Do you think they didn't notice the
business case? They did but it was too late.

They said that about Cobol too running on the big iron horse mainframes.
Nether one of them have gone anywhere, because to push those transactions,
companies are still using the solutions. You got to have some kind of cost
justification to prove to management that change is required, otherwise,
it not going to happen as easily as you think it should happen.

Nobody here suggested migrating COBOL running on a mainframe to .Net on a
PC. Read the original message and consider sticking to the subject.

>"Manage change or change management."

>
And about that above statement there, what will change is you hitting the
streets as they force you out the door, by any means necessary, with you
wondering what happened, believe me. :)

Why should anybody believe you? People reciting pretty much what you're
written here are being replaced at companies every day. A "can't do"
attitude isn't hard to come by and if I had one I'd be let go tomorrow and
rightfully so. I didn't write the quote BTW.

The original poster made it quite clear that his company has a software
product "they bought out from someone" written in VB.Net and they're trying
to find a developer for it (and apparently can't). This has nothing to do
with COBOL.

Anyway it's been fun... I'm not trying to convince you of anything. The guy
with the problem needs a sensible solution and converting to C# could be it.

**Mr. Arnold** · Jun 15 '07, 06:35 AM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"Samuel R. Neff" <samuelneff@nom ail.comwrote in message
news:etr373thtc 521kjcmnqo6llem ohf1los6p@4ax.c om...

>
Sounds like you need management with vision to see a good thing
without having to spend a boatload on studies and analysis (sometimes
it's not necessary).
>

I am a contractor, it's not my problem, and I was glad to leave the company,
just after they flew in a .NET guru from India that trained all the company
client server programmer 8 hours a day for four weeks on C# .NET.

It wasn't soon after that I got my first .NET certification and bailed out
of the company and out of the two bit town that the company owned.

I am just telling it like it is when it comes to cost justification. One
had better show the cost justification for change, because management is
not just going to start throwing money around on hearsay.

It's been that way since 1971 when I first entered into the IT field.

**Mr. Arnold** · Jun 15 '07, 06:35 AM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

"Tom Leylan" <tleylan@nospam .netwrote in message
news:urearovrHH A.4828@TK2MSFTN GP04.phx.gbl...

"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...

>>
>"Tom Leylan" <tleylan@nospam .netwrote in message
>news:%23N8OKmt rHHA.4548@TK2MS FTNGP03.phx.gbl ...

>>"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.c omwrote...
>>>There are a lot of legacy applications still written in VB 6. If it's
>>>not broke, then don't fix it.
>>>
>>If we're reciting adages: "Change is the only constant". Remember
>>Sears, the "former" leading U.S. retailer? Why bother to change if it
>>ain't broke? Well perhaps because somebody who doesn't agree with your
>>definition of "broke" is going to usurp your position.

>>
>I don't even know what you're talking about here. The condition of some
>company and its state has nothing to do with some programmer telling
>management that change is needed without cost justification to
>management.

>
Who said anything about some programmer? Sears management couldn't see
what was broken... perhaps they didn't hire the correct consultants?

That's Sears and their problems. I could care less about Sears. I worked for
Sears here recently on a contract. As long as Sears was putting money in my
pockets, I don't care what its past history was about.

>

>I worked in a multi, multi too many multi billion dollars company that
>wouldn't go to .NET. No programming manager or director could convince
>all of management that the path to take was to go to .NET. It didn't
>happen until such time that outside consultants and auditors laied out
>the cost justifications.

>
The question wasn't about developing in .Net. Many multi-billion dollar
companies (and smaller) pay for software that increases their
productivity. I doubt that they check the language that Outlook was
written in before sending an e-mail. But you've also just pointed out
they made the switch to .Net.

The only way that company was going to it was due to cost justification,
which was the example I gave, and they went kicking and screaming. I don't
care if it was .NET or .NOT, as it was just an example.

They sure a were not listening to some programmer standing up some corner
hollering *I want change, and I want my oatmeal.* And there were some that
were hollering. :)

>

>>Might there be a lot of legacy apps written in BASIC running under CP/M?
>>Let's say there are 10,000 of them, does this make it a "good" solution?

>>
>It has nothing to do with it being a good solution. It has to do with
>cost justifcation. If you can't prove the justification for the change of
>this nature, then it's not changing.

>
It will change... a year or two after it should have changed when it would
have cost less and could have been at an acceptable pace.

Really?

When the cost-justified need finally hits home the fix is 10 man-years
away from completion and they are plainly losing revenue while it is being
developed. In many cases a competing company (who added the new features)
surpasses the market leader and the game is over.

Yeah know, I myself have not seen a compnay loose revenue due to some
program not being changed to new technology. What I have seen is end-users
wanting change, because they were able to do things at home with their
computers that they couldn't do on the job. I have seen tremendous heat
brought on the IT department by a department or departments wanting change.

Where is VisiCalc, Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro Pro? Do you have a Novell
network? Do you think they didn't notice the business case? They did but
it was too late.

You seeme to be off in left field about some legacy application and it's
purpose running in a company that was written in VB 6. What you're talking
about has nothing to do with the subject at hand and cost justication for
change.

>

>They said that about Cobol too running on the big iron horse mainframes.
>Nether one of them have gone anywhere, because to push those
>transactions , companies are still using the solutions. You got to have
>some kind of cost justification to prove to management that change is
>required, otherwise, it not going to happen as easily as you think it
>should happen.

>
Nobody here suggested migrating COBOL running on a mainframe to .Net on a
PC. Read the original message and consider sticking to the subject.

Your original message was about BASIC and CPM, which had nothing to do with
the subject as well. Well, the same thing applied to COBOL and the
mainframe O/S(s) and they were suppose to be out of date and falling to the
waste side running legacy applications.

Well that's not the case and a company is not going to jump ship because of
some programmer whining about change. There had better be some cost
justification

And your spin to me even about Sear's had nothing to do with the subject.

I am going to say what I want, and if you don't like it, that's too bad.

You can't be coming up with *keep to the subject* when you yourself are not
on subject. wondering around. :)

>

>>"Manage change or change management."

>>
>And about that above statement there, what will change is you hitting the
>streets as they force you out the door, by any means necessary, with you
>wondering what happened, believe me. :)

>
Why should anybody believe you?

Well, put it to the test I say, and you step if front of management and tell
them how you think they are not doing their jobs and you report back, from
the streets. :)

I wish you would try to firer someone that had a management position in a
company with out some serious justification supporting it, more than that
nonsense you were talking about. Your behind would be rolled on the carpet,
along with the compnay, if wrongful termination could be proved.

Anyway it's been fun... I'm not trying to convince you of anything. The
guy with the problem needs a sensible solution and converting to C# could
be it.
>

I am not trying to convince you of anything, either. And you can't convince
me on anything, because I have already been down the road more than once,
in my 30+ years in IT. The OP had better show cost justification, otherwise,
it's not going to happen. :)

asta la vista baby

**Andrew Morton** · Jun 15 '07, 12:15 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

Samuel R. Neff wrote:

Here's some links from info based on O'Reilly book sales which shows
c# up and vb way down.

No: it shows book sales, not C# vs. VB usage. And anyway, strictly speaking
there's no mention of VB.NET book sales. Let's assume that VB.NET was meant
where it said VB.

Radar - O’Reilly

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/08/programming_language_trends_1.html

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

>

Radar - O’Reilly

http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2005/04/book_sales_as_a.html

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

>
There are many things that can explain this besides popularity of
languages

For example, people could be having more trouble with C# than VB.NET. Or
VB.NET might have better documentation supplied/on-line, reducing the need
for book purchases. Or some other publisher may have most of the market
share of VB.NET books. Many other reasons are mentioned in the Comments
section on the first page cited.

That data is more like quicksand than concrete if you want to extrapolate
from it. What is needed is to see if it has any correlation to reality,
rather than assuming reality has a correlation to the data.

Andrew

**Freddy Potargent** · Jun 15 '07, 12:55 PM

Re: Programming Language Popularity // Looking for Concrete Info

You can also try Google Trends: http://trends.google.com

For C# and VB or VB.NET it gives:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=C%23%2C+%28VB+%7C+VB.NET%29

PS: Seperate the different terms with comma's.

Note: you'll probably want to refine the search because it will now also
hit on the musical note C# I guess.

Anyway, the use of VB seems to be going down the last 2 years or so but
the increase of C# is less, so maybe there's another "hot" language on
the rise. :-)

And as always, take the results with a little caution. I'm not sure what
they are indexing (searchterms, contents of websites, ...) but it sure
gives nice graphs. :-)

-- Freddy

Andrew Morton schreef:

Samuel R. Neff wrote:

>Here's some links from info based on O'Reilly book sales which shows
>c# up and vb way down.

>
No: it shows book sales, not C# vs. VB usage. And anyway, strictly speaking
there's no mention of VB.NET book sales. Let's assume that VB.NET was meant
where it said VB.
>

>http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/20..._trends_1.html
>>
>http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/20...ales_as_a.html
>>
>There are many things that can explain this besides popularity of
>languages

>
For example, people could be having more trouble with C# than VB.NET. Or
VB.NET might have better documentation supplied/on-line, reducing the need
for book purchases. Or some other publisher may have most of the market
share of VB.NET books. Many other reasons are mentioned in the Comments
section on the first page cited.
>
That data is more like quicksand than concrete if you want to extrapolate
from it. What is needed is to see if it has any correlation to reality,
rather than assuming reality has a correlation to the data.
>
Andrew
>
>