About syntactic sugar

[Sam Kong]

Hi,

While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.

using (R r1 = new R()) {
r1.F();
}

is precisely equivalent to

R r1 = new R();
try {
r1.F();
}
finally {
if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
}

I think that using statement is just a syntactic sugar.
But the guy doesn't think so.
He has a very narrow definition of syntactic sugar.
He says that doing the same thing doesn't mean it's a syntactic sugar.
He shows examples like the following.

a++ is a syntactic sugar for a = a + 1.
a[i] is a syntactic sugar for *(a + i) in C language.

I want to know what people think.
Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

Thanks.

Sam

[Jeffrey Hornby]

RE: About syntactic sugar

Sure it's syntactic sugar. Generally if you can do the exact same thing two
different ways, one of them (usualy the shorter) is syntactic sugar.

But then who cares? I like syntactic sugar. Anything that my code easier
to read and therefore cheaper to maintain for the next programmer who looks
at it is a good thing.

BTW, a[i] is not the same thing as *(a+i) in C, therefore it is not
syntactic sugar (even though they accomplish the same thing).

--
Jeffrey Hornby
Hornby Consulting, Inc.



"Sam Kong" wrote:

Hi,
>
While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.
>
using (R r1 = new R()) {
r1.F();
}
>
is precisely equivalent to
>
R r1 = new R();
try {
r1.F();
}
finally {
if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
}
>
I think that using statement is just a syntactic sugar.
But the guy doesn't think so.
He has a very narrow definition of syntactic sugar.
He says that doing the same thing doesn't mean it's a syntactic sugar.
He shows examples like the following.
>
a++ is a syntactic sugar for a = a + 1.
a[i] is a syntactic sugar for *(a + i) in C language.
>
I want to know what people think.
Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
If so, why?
If not, why not?
>
Thanks.
>
Sam
>
>

[William Stacey [MVP]]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Everything is sugar over something else. The framework is sugar over win32.
Win32 is sugar over something else. I would use "using" over the manual
method.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Sam Kong" <sam.s.kong@gma il.comwrote in message
news:1159395692 .390106.55880@m 7g2000cwm.googl egroups.com...
| Hi,
|
| While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
| In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.
|
| using (R r1 = new R()) {
| r1.F();
| }
|
| is precisely equivalent to
|
| R r1 = new R();
| try {
| r1.F();
| }
| finally {
| if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
| }
|
| I think that using statement is just a syntactic sugar.
| But the guy doesn't think so.
| He has a very narrow definition of syntactic sugar.
| He says that doing the same thing doesn't mean it's a syntactic sugar.
| He shows examples like the following.
|
| a++ is a syntactic sugar for a = a + 1.
| a[i] is a syntactic sugar for *(a + i) in C language.
|
| I want to know what people think.
| Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
| If so, why?
| If not, why not?
|
| Thanks.
|
| Sam
|

[Brian Gideon]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Sam,

That's about as sweet as they come. You can tell it's sugar by looking
at the IL generated.

Brian

Sam Kong wrote:

Hi,
>
While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.
>
using (R r1 = new R()) {
r1.F();
}
>
is precisely equivalent to
>
R r1 = new R();
try {
r1.F();
}
finally {
if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
}
>
I think that using statement is just a syntactic sugar.
But the guy doesn't think so.
He has a very narrow definition of syntactic sugar.
He says that doing the same thing doesn't mean it's a syntactic sugar.
He shows examples like the following.
>
a++ is a syntactic sugar for a = a + 1.
a[i] is a syntactic sugar for *(a + i) in C language.
>
I want to know what people think.
Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
If so, why?
If not, why not?
>
Thanks.
>
Sam

[Steven Nagy]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Maybe its just me but there seems to also be a significant scope
difference between the 2 as well.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Sam,

I don't agree, with you, your part is in my idea syntatic sugar because
there is a much easier to write method the other guy did did and therefore
it is better to maintain.

The sugar in your method is that it looks more precise, while that is not
true.

Just my thought,

Cor

"Sam Kong" <sam.s.kong@gma il.comschreef in bericht
news:1159395692 .390106.55880@m 7g2000cwm.googl egroups.com...

Hi,
>
While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.
>
using (R r1 = new R()) {
r1.F();
}
>
is precisely equivalent to
>
R r1 = new R();
try {
r1.F();
}
finally {
if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
}
>
I think that using statement is just a syntactic sugar.
But the guy doesn't think so.
He has a very narrow definition of syntactic sugar.
He says that doing the same thing doesn't mean it's a syntactic sugar.
He shows examples like the following.
>
a++ is a syntactic sugar for a = a + 1.
a[i] is a syntactic sugar for *(a + i) in C language.
>
I want to know what people think.
Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
If so, why?
If not, why not?
>
Thanks.
>
Sam
>

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Sam Kong <sam.s.kong@gma il.comwrote:

<snip>

I want to know what people think.
Would you call "using" statement a syntactic sugar?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

Yes, I'd say it's just syntactic sugar, for precisely the reasons
you've given. I don't regard "syntactic sugar" as a bad thing though :)

--
Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Brian Gideon]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Steven,

It's not just you. I always thought it strange as well especially
since the specification uses the word "precisely" . But, then again, I
don't think scope was the focus of the explanation in that section.

Brian

Steven Nagy wrote:

Maybe its just me but there seems to also be a significant scope
difference between the 2 as well.

[Steven Nagy]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Sure. But I guess what I want to point out is that its not JUST sugar
in this particular argument. There are some scope issues that seriously
differentiate the 2 examples.

I'm not very clued up on the specification though. Perhaps I should
read it some time soon.

[William Stacey [MVP]]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Here is an interesting read ~related.

http://www.bluebytesoftware.com/blog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=c1898a31-a0aa-40af-871c-7847d98f1641

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Steven Nagy" <learndotnet@ho tmail.comwrote in message
news:1159475073 .561848.236140@ m73g2000cwd.goo glegroups.com.. .
| Sure. But I guess what I want to point out is that its not JUST sugar
| in this particular argument. There are some scope issues that seriously
| differentiate the 2 examples.
|
| I'm not very clued up on the specification though. Perhaps I should
| read it some time soon.
|

[Göran Andersson]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Yes, there is a scope difference.

Another difference (IIRC) is that the using statement stores away a
reference to the object, so that it can be disposed even if you destroy
the declared reference to it.

If you do this:

using (R r1 = new R()) {
r1.F();
r1 = null;
}

the object will still be disposed properly.

Steven Nagy wrote:

Maybe its just me but there seems to also be a significant scope
difference between the 2 as well.
>

[William Stacey [MVP]]

Re: About syntactic sugar

IIRC, the "}" in the using just explicitly calls dispose() so there really
is not much magic going on or object storage (the object already exists in
the method scope). using is a nice little pattern that is very helpful.

--
William Stacey [MVP]

"Göran Andersson" <guffa@guffa.co mwrote in message
news:u3acGu04GH A.4976@TK2MSFTN GP06.phx.gbl...
| Yes, there is a scope difference.
|
| Another difference (IIRC) is that the using statement stores away a
| reference to the object, so that it can be disposed even if you destroy
| the declared reference to it.
|
| If you do this:
|
| using (R r1 = new R()) {
| r1.F();
| r1 = null;
| }
|
| the object will still be disposed properly.
|
| Steven Nagy wrote:
| Maybe its just me but there seems to also be a significant scope
| difference between the 2 as well.
| >

[Brian Gideon]

Re: About syntactic sugar


Steven Nagy wrote:

Sure. But I guess what I want to point out is that its not JUST sugar
in this particular argument. There are some scope issues that seriously
differentiate the 2 examples.
>

I guess what I'm saying is that the specification either used wording
that was too strong or didn't accurately represent the expansion.
Obviously, the specification's description and the compiler's behavior
aren't in complete agreement. Now if it said that it was precisely
like the following then I'd be more comfortable with it.

{ // Begin inner scope.
R r1 = new R();
try {
r1.F();
}
finally {
if (r1 != null) ((IDisposable)r 1).Dispose();
}
}

So despite what the specification says I think it is nothing more than
a syntactical convenience. A good one I might add :)

I'm not very clued up on the specification though. Perhaps I should
read it some time soon.

I can't say I'm that familiar with it either. I recommend reading the
ECMA version as opposed to the MSDN version. It's a little more
verbose.

[Jason Gurtz]

Re: About syntactic sugar

Sam Kong wrote:

Hi,
>
While discussing C#'s using statement, a guy and I had an argument.
In C# spec (15.13), there's an explanation like the following.

By the by, the O'Reilly C# Language Pocket Reference (ISBN: 059600429X)
has a very similar assertion on page 30-31. They don't discuss scope
either.

My opinion is that the try...finally is more immediately understandable,
but that's probably due to my experience with Java and C++.

Undoubtedly, the using() {} is very nice and concise when you have some
experience in C#. To me it well represents the paradigm of managed
code. It is like the other gentleman's example of arrays in C. I could
easily see someone doing *(a+i) in C, but it would really seem out of
place to me in C++ instead of a[i]. I'm tempted to do a benchmark/asm
comparison session with that tho ;)

~Jason

--