array question

[Bob Barrows [MVP]]

Re: array question

Anthony Jones wrote:

For that reason I don't think the "ASP is not VBScript" rebuke is ever
justified. We need to remember that a lot of people developing with
ASP aren't hardened 'classically' trained programmers.
>

We're here to educate aren't we (Well ... I am. I try very hard not to just
give the quick fix)? People who talk about writing ASP code need to be
informed that their terminology is incorrect. I really do not consider that
to be a rebuke.


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[Bob Barrows [MVP]]

Re: array question

Dave Anderson wrote:

Evertjan. wrote:

>>>Like when using the Split function but the actual number

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>
>Only if vbs is assumed, not in jscript.

>
In principle, I agree that VBScript questions posing as ASP questions
deserve the "ASP is not VBScript" rebuke,

Wait a minute, you seem to be implying that vbscript or jscript syntax
questions are not really on-topic here. Am I reading too much into this
statement?
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[Bob Barrows [MVP]]

Re: array question

Mike Brind wrote:

Dave Anderson wrote:

>Anthony Jones wrote:

>>If you are working on an ASP page and have a problem with
>>syntax the human thing to do is ask other developers in
>>your community. In this case the community is this NG.

>>
>I do not agree. If you have a problem with syntax, then you are
>likely to be posting here for the first time (or thereabout). This
>forum was not already "your community" because you would have been
>reading it for some time, and would know the difference between
>microsoft.publ ic.scripting.vb script and
>microsoft.publ ic.inetserver.a sp.general. If it were "your
>community", you would have an interest in keeping it tidy.
>>

>
Interesting....
>
If you took out all the server-side scripting questions from this
group, and all the db-related ones (which obviously belong in other
groups), not to mention all the IIS related questions, this group
would
be an ex-group. It would cease to be. It will have shuffled off this
mortal coil. It would be dead.

Why would anyone want to to that? Who said we should be doing that?
Everything you've mentioned is on-topic (well ... maybe not db, but even
those)...

Let me go back and read this thread. I though the discussion was about
whether or not it was correct to assume a poster was asking a vbscript
question as opposed to jscript ....

OK, I think I see what you are talking about in Dave's post. I will reply to
that.

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[Bob Barrows [MVP]]

Re: array question

Bob Barrows [MVP] wrote:

the other john wrote:

>Yikes. what happened here? didn't count on all of this...
>>
>so the moral of the story is you don't want me posting VB questions
>in here?

>

Actually, since VB is not used in ASP (except as an external component) we
really would rather not address VB questions here. VBScript questions, when
they involve server-side code, are certainly welcome.


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[Anthony Jones]

Re: array question


"Bob Barrows [MVP]" <reb01501@NOyah oo.SPAMcomwrote in message
news:eHg%23udWv GHA.4160@TK2MSF TNGP06.phx.gbl. ..

Anthony Jones wrote:
>

For that reason I don't think the "ASP is not VBScript" rebuke is ever
justified. We need to remember that a lot of people developing with
ASP aren't hardened 'classically' trained programmers.

>
We're here to educate aren't we (Well ... I am. I try very hard not to

just

give the quick fix)? People who talk about writing ASP code need to be
informed that their terminology is incorrect. I really do not consider

that

to be a rebuke.
>

Your point is well made. I retract. I guess I'm easily irked by the
pendantic amongst us and that can cloud my judgement. I still think it as
you do that the OP was reasonably placed here.

>
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>
>

[Evertjan.]

Re: array question

Mike Brind wrote on 11 aug 2006 in
microsoft.publi c.inetserver.as p.general:

>
Evertjan. wrote:

>Mike Brind wrote on 10 aug 2006 in
>microsoft.publ ic.inetserver.a sp.general:
>>

the other john wrote:
>Is there a way or a property that can tell me how many items are
>in an array? Like when using the Split function but the actual
>number of created array items is unknown? I need to be able to
>dynamically count the number of items that are created as a result
>of using Split().
>>
>
Ubound()
>

>>
>Only if vbs is assumed, not in jscript.
>>

>
I _always_ assume vbscript. Users of jscript/javascript or perl tend
to announce themselves (in a tone of voice that varies between proud,
or aggressively defensive ).

[skipping a lot of following and diverging thread lines resulting from
here]

You can see the OP asked a Q that can be answered
with a vbscript answer or an jscript answer,
if the word "function" can be extended to "method",
which is a function in the broader sence too.

My one row addition, which is only a rebuke in the most suspicious of
minds, and I know Mike's mind is not, is just that _I_ would have
answered:

"Ubound() in vbscript"

I cannot agree with Mike it is a good thing to assume vbs in an anwer
where vbs is not stipulated in the question in his ASP NG.
The "asp = vbscript" concept does not aggree with me.

=============

I would have added that the number of terms
of a jscript array is not as easily defined:

var a = new Array();
a[0] = 5;
a[999] = 'Hi';
a['saved'] = 4;

is the last one part of the array, and the number of terms 3?
or is the number 1001?

Let us try a.length:

var a = new Array();
a[0] = 5;
a[999] = 'Hi';
response.write( a.length+'<br>' ) // writes 1000
a['saved'] = 4;
response.write( a.length) // writes 1000 again

I think length does not return the actual number of terms,
so a count is necessary:

var a = new Array();
a[0] = 5;
a[999] = 'Hi';
a['saved'] = 4;
var n = 0;
for (t in a)n++;
response.write( n); // 3

That is the right jscript answer, methinks,
depending on definition of "array" and "terms".

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Anthony Jones]

Re: array question


"Dave Anderson" <NYRUMTPELVWH@s pammotel.comwro te in message
news:%233wIkkUv GHA.4756@TK2MSF TNGP02.phx.gbl. ..

Anthony Jones wrote:

If you are working on an ASP page and have a problem with
syntax the human thing to do is ask other developers in
your community. In this case the community is this NG.

>
I do not agree. If you have a problem with syntax, then you are likely to

be

posting here for the first time (or thereabout). This forum was not

already

"your community" because you would have been reading it for some time, and
would know the difference between microsoft.publi c.scripting.vbs cript and
microsoft.publi c.inetserver.as p.general. If it were "your community", you
would have an interest in keeping it tidy.
>

Nah, I like the idea of people who doing similar things talking to each
other in same place about the various things they have to do. You're right
of course it would keep things tidy.

>
>

For that reason I don't think the "ASP is not VBScript" rebuke
is ever justified. We need to remember that a lot of people
developing with ASP aren't hardened 'classically' trained
programmers.

>
By that reasoning, none of these are justified:
>
JavaScript is not Java
ASP.NET is not ASP
Client-side is not server-side
(D)HTML is not ASP
>

Yep right again.

>
>
My point, if you read it carefully, is that the rebuke need not be rude,

and

ought to be instructive. There *is* value in asking people to use
appropriate groups.

Within reason but a purely VBScript question is IMO appropriately asked
here. Whether it's right or wrong and whether you like it or not the NGs
_have_ become communities of people doing similar things. The original
technical sectioning of the NGs has been usurped by the what those technical
things are generally used for.

>The last thng we need is a bunch of posts about the
conflict Lebanon.
>
>
>

If you were to look at the posts in VBScript and Javascript
groups without knowing the names of the groups you might
concluded the VBScript = Automated Administration and
Javascript = DHTML. It's hardly fair then to complain when
someone posts a VBScript question in the ASP group.

>
Who complained? I advocated instructive examples that make the point.
>

Ok compliant was too strong a word. I don't even think it makes sense to
try to encourage someone to use what is technically the correct group if the
question is reasonable relevant to the community. An ASPer can take a one
look at the set of subjects in VBscript and reasonable conclude they are in
the wrong place.

>
>

JScript/Javascript/ECMAScript (seen rebukes about use of
these terms as well) is simply a more elegant and ultimately
a more powerfull language.

>
I can't agree that JScript is more powerful than VBScript. I cannot think

of

a single task that JScript can solve, but that VBScript cannot.

Well that statement is true for pretty much anything that can assign
variables and branch. It's a matter of how quickly you can build the code
and how understandable it is when you've built it.

>I don't
consider it *convenient* to use the Class Statement (or 4*atn(1) in place

of

Math.PI), but I don't deny that there are routes to solutions in VBScript.
>
And let's face it, VBScript often runs faster than JScript on the server.
>
>
>
--
Dave Anderson
>
Unsolicited commercial email will be read at a cost of $500 per message.

Use

of this email address implies consent to these terms.
>
>

[Dave Anderson]

Re: array question

Evertjan. wrote:

var a = new Array();
a[0] = 5;
a[999] = 'Hi';
response.write( a.length+'<br>' ) // writes 1000
a['saved'] = 4;
response.write( a.length) // writes 1000 again
>
I think length does not return the actual number of terms,
so a count is necessary:

ECMA-262v3, 15.4.5.2 length
The length property of this Array object is always
numerically greater than the name of every property
whose name is an array index.


--
Dave Anderson

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[Evertjan.]

Re: array question

Dave Anderson wrote on 11 aug 2006 in
microsoft.publi c.inetserver.as p.general:

Evertjan. wrote:

>var a = new Array();
>a[0] = 5;
>a[999] = 'Hi';
>response.write (a.length+'<br> ') // writes 1000
>a['saved'] = 4;
>response.write (a.length) // writes 1000 again
>>
>I think length does not return the actual number of terms,
>so a count is necessary:

>
ECMA-262v3, 15.4.5.2 length
The length property of this Array object is always
numerically greater than the name of every property
whose name is an array index.

Sorry, I do not understand this ECMA sentence.

A property is a value? Or has a value?

How can something be greater than the name?
[Meaning no insult to the Jewish faith]

Wat would be the name of the length property? "length"?

Is a name not an array index if it is enumerated?

What where thos ECMA boys and girls doing
the day they concocted this ruling?

Anyway, I thought we were talking JScript? ;-)

--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Dave Anderson]

Re: array question

Bob Barrows [MVP] wrote:

Wait a minute, you seem to be implying that vbscript or
jscript syntax questions are not really on-topic here.
Am I reading too much into this statement?

I think so. I don't personally mind that questions are off-topic when they
are clearly *related* to ASP. I think it is often reasonable to ask ADO,
CDO, SQL, VBScript, JScript, DOM and HTML questions here. You can observe
for yourself that I answer questions on a broad range of topics.

I intended to say that posters should be made aware when their questions are
unnecessarily vague[1]. It is in their interests to narrow their questions,
after all.

Your observation to Anthony echoes my belief. People SHOULD be taught to use
correct terminology. Some of us are just less personable in our writing
style.




[1] "Rebuke" was a poor word choice -- a bit harsher to read than I
intended. It is no help that communicating in plain text adds to the
perception of pointless pedantry on my part.

--
Dave Anderson

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[Dave Anderson]

Re: array question

Evertjan. wrote:

> ECMA-262v3, 15.4.5.2 length
> The length property of this Array object is always
> numerically greater than the name of every property
> whose name is an array index.

>
Sorry, I do not understand this ECMA sentence.

It means that when you enumerate the properties of an array object, some of
them are nonnegative integers, which are treated by the array as index
values:

a[0] = 5;
a[999] = 'Hi';
a['saved'] = 4;
for (var x in a) output(x) // "0", "999", "saved"
for (x in a) output(typeof x) // "string", "string", "string"

In this example, there is a property named "0", another named "999" and a
third named "saved". Two coerce to nonnegative integers, so they are treated
like index values.

Wat would be the name of the length property? "length"?

I assume so.

Is a name not an array index if it is enumerated?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Hopefully, my above answer clears it up.

Anyway, I thought we were talking JScript? ;-)

Forget I said anything.



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Dave Anderson

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[Mike Brind]

Re: array question


Evertjan. wrote:

Mike Brind wrote on 11 aug 2006 in
microsoft.publi c.inetserver.as p.general:
>

Evertjan. wrote:

Mike Brind wrote on 10 aug 2006 in
microsoft.publi c.inetserver.as p.general:
>
the other john wrote:
Is there a way or a property that can tell me how many items are
in an array? Like when using the Split function but the actual
number of created array items is unknown? I need to be able to
dynamically count the number of items that are created as a result
of using Split().
>

Ubound()

>
Only if vbs is assumed, not in jscript.
>

I _always_ assume vbscript. Users of jscript/javascript or perl tend
to announce themselves (in a tone of voice that varies between proud,
or aggressively defensive ).

>
[skipping a lot of following and diverging thread lines resulting from
here]
>
You can see the OP asked a Q that can be answered
with a vbscript answer or an jscript answer,
if the word "function" can be extended to "method",
which is a function in the broader sence too.
>
My one row addition, which is only a rebuke in the most suspicious of
minds, and I know Mike's mind is not, is just that _I_ would have
answered:

You're right. I didn't see it as a rebuke. I'm well used to your
style now.

>
"Ubound() in vbscript"
>
I cannot agree with Mike it is a good thing to assume vbs in an anwer
where vbs is not stipulated in the question in his ASP NG.

To be fair, there were a number of clues in this case that the OP uses
vbs, not the least of which is that his previous questions have
stipulated vbs. And as Dave Anderson pointed out, vbs was implied in
the question. Nevertheless, it isn't going to cause me any problems to
add the bit of clarification you suggest in future.

The "asp = vbscript" concept does not aggree with me.

I go back to what I said earlier. The vast majority of questioners
here use vbscript, and it is the default language. The small number of
jscript/perlscript users do tend to clarify the language they are
using. I have yet to see anyone here ask a general scripting question,
be given an answer in vbs, then announce that actually, they are using
javascript.

That explains my thought processes. Whether it is a *good* thing to
assume vbs in an question, I can't answer, but I think it is a
reasonably *safe* thing to do. Nevertheless, I see the merit in your
suggestion regarding the added clarification of language in answers in
the future.

--
Mike Brind

[Dave Anderson]

Re: array question

Mike Brind wrote:

I have yet to see anyone here ask a general scripting
question, be given an answer in vbs, then announce that
actually, they are using javascript.
>
That explains my thought processes. Whether it is a *good*
thing to assume vbs in an question, I can't answer, but I
think it is a reasonably *safe* thing to do.

It's a little bit if a chicken & egg problem, isn't it? Since Microsoft
documentation provides essentially *zero* ASP examples written in JScript,
(a) many people are unaware that JScript is an option, and (b) people
searching for JScript solutions usually announce their language.

This is further compounded by the fact that ASP/VBScript examples (whether
on msdn or elsewhere) almost always lack the details needed to do the job in
JScript. The JScript author needs to learn, for example, that these two are
equivalent:

VBScript ----
request("abc")

JScript -----
Request.QuerySt ring("abc").Ite m ||
Request.Form("a bc").Item ||
Request.Cookies ("abc").Item ||
Request.ClientC ertificates("ab c").Item ||
Request.ServerV ariables("abc") .Item

That is a lot of conditional assignment, and the kind of knowledge that has
to be *sought*, due to the poor quality of VBScript (and by implication,
ALL) ASP examples.

All of these conspire against the individal who wants to use JScript to
write ASP. So only the determined do. It's a shame, too. I think ASP in
JScript is a marvelously flexible and powerful thing.

So yes, I agree that it is safe to assume VBScript in almost all cases.



--
Dave Anderson

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