Database Copyright

[Zellan]

I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
potential client where several different users would be able to use the same
database I have designed.

I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
dissemination to other clients within this one group.
Is it possible to put a copyright on an individual database or would the
customer sign an agreement to say they would be the sole user.

Can anyone answer or point me towards the right direction?..... Thanking you
for your assistance.

Regards

Zellan

[Bernard Peek]

Re: Database Copyright

In message <40cc42b4$0$136 25$afc38c87@new s.optusnet.com. au>, Zellan
<Zellan@hotmail .com> writes[color=blue]
>I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
>potential client where several different users would be able to use the same
>database I have designed.
>
>I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
>disseminatio n to other clients within this one group.
>Is it possible to put a copyright on an individual database or would the
>customer sign an agreement to say they would be the sole user.
>
>Can anyone answer or point me towards the right direction?..... Thanking you
>for your assistance.[/color]

I don't know how much useful advice you can get from a newsgroup like
this. Like many newsgroups the majority of posters here are likely to be
in the US, so advice to a user in Australia will be of limited value.

But the laws are similar in every country that is a signatory to the
Berne Convention. You may own the copyright to the database design or it
may be owned by the client. Your contract with the client should be
explicit about this. If it isn't explicit then it is safe to assume that
you can't prevent the client doing what they want, because they can
afford more lawyers than you can whatever the law says.

You should be talking to a lawyer about this, not to a newsgroup. If you
want a legal opinion hire a lawyer. If you want a definitive legal
opinion, buy a judge.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

[Lyle Fairfield]

Re: Database Copyright

"Zellan" <Zellan@hotmail .com> wrote in
news:40cc42b4$0 $13625$afc38c87 @news.optusnet. com.au:
[color=blue]
> I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
> potential client where several different users would be able to use the
> same database I have designed.
>
> I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
> dissemination to other clients within this one group.[/color]

Deal with honest people.

--
Lyle
(for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/)

[XMVP]

Re: Database Copyright


"Lyle Fairfield" <MissingAddress @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xns9507782 BFBF29FFDBA@130 .133.1.4...[color=blue]
>
> Deal with honest people.
>[/color]

So much for posting in CDMA!

[Emily Jones]

Re: Database Copyright

If you are 'starting' a business doing databases and have a 'potential'
client then I would say worry less about copyright infringement and more
about getting the job and doing it successfully.

You can probably make any agreement you like over who 'owns' the copyright
to the software. Mr Fairfield's advice to only deal with honest people is
fine and dandy. A lot of people aren't honest and will try to get software
for free if they can.

But who are you dealing with? A small company with different users? Then it
doesn't make sense to limit use of your system to a few people within the
company. You actually _want_ everybody to use it. Then they'll come back to
you for the next job, because you'll get a good reputation with lots of
users.

Otherwise do manual installs, with an MDE, encrypted, and do some routine on
critical forms that checks the serial number of some hardware, like the disk
drive, so that the software won't work on a different machine. As protection
it works, but it's pretty drastic, and unless you make the customer aware,
they're going to be pretty unhappy when they try to move it and it fails.
Still, if you've got a 'this software can only be installed on these
machines' type agreement, then they can't complain.

Emily

"Zellan" <Zellan@hotmail .com> wrote in message
news:40cc42b4$0 $13625$afc38c87 @news.optusnet. com.au...[color=blue]
> I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
> potential client where several different users would be able to use the[/color]
same[color=blue]
> database I have designed.
>
> I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
> dissemination to other clients within this one group.
> Is it possible to put a copyright on an individual database or would the
> customer sign an agreement to say they would be the sole user.
>
> Can anyone answer or point me towards the right direction?..... Thanking[/color]
you[color=blue]
> for your assistance.
>
> Regards
>
> Zellan
>
>[/color]

[Bob]

Re: Database Copyright

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:38:11 +0100, "Emily Jones"
<emmersthejones @hotmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>If you are 'starting' a business doing databases and have a 'potential'
>client then I would say worry less about copyright infringement and more
>about getting the job and doing it successfully.
>
>You can probably make any agreement you like over who 'owns' the copyright
>to the software. Mr Fairfield's advice to only deal with honest people is
>fine and dandy. A lot of people aren't honest and will try to get software
>for free if they can.
>
>But who are you dealing with? A small company with different users? Then it
>doesn't make sense to limit use of your system to a few people within the
>company. You actually _want_ everybody to use it. Then they'll come back to
>you for the next job, because you'll get a good reputation with lots of
>users.
>
>Otherwise do manual installs, with an MDE, encrypted, and do some routine on
>critical forms that checks the serial number of some hardware, like the disk
>drive, so that the software won't work on a different machine. As protection
>it works, but it's pretty drastic, and unless you make the customer aware,[/color]

Wow Emily! How is that possible. I always thought you had to have a
widget that you plug in between the screen monitor and computer box.
Any details available.

Regards Smil;ey Bob
[color=blue]
>they're going to be pretty unhappy when they try to move it and it fails.
>Still, if you've got a 'this software can only be installed on these
>machines' type agreement, then they can't complain.
>
>Emily
>[/color]
[color=blue]
>[/color]

[WindAndWaves]

Re: Database Copyright

Sell your service rather than the software.

I am a great believer in the open source concept. That is to say, a program
is a scientific discovery, invention that should not be kept a secret.
However, if you happened to be the scientist who discovered it then sure
they will hire you (at good rates), to train them, customise it, etc....

I would be flattered if they passed on the software to others..... Just make
sure that your name is listed at the top with your contact details so that
they will contact you when they need help. It will also be a very powerful
marketing tool for your business. Most access programmers are hired on
recommendation, so as long as you make a good application then you will get
more business out of it.

This is a much more positive approach then the one of trying to hold things
for yourself and it is also a much more desirable approach on a community
level.

Good luck


- Nicolaas

[Larry Daugherty]

Re: Database Copyright

Dealing with honest and trustworthy people is a good beginning but remember,
locks are made to secure things against honest people, thieves see locks as
just another obstacle to get through.

Claim copyright protection in several places throughout your application.
Create your own splash screen and make sure the copyright notice is plainly
visible on it. My name is also semi-automatically inserted into every
routine I write.. Put a copyright notice on your project notes and other
project documentation, especially any User Manual or Help file.

Make sure you are clear with your customers that they have the right to run
only that number of copies of your application that they purchase from you
and that other copying constitutes copyright infringement and possibly
theft. They don't own the software, you do. They own a license to use
their copy or copies of the software.

Beyond that, get a lawyer. Note that all of the copyright notices in the
world won't stop a thief from copying your software. It provides a basis
for suit it that it shows you are diligently trying to protect your rights.
You might search the net for "copyright" and see what you get. You can also
do a google search for the word.

All that being said, if you have a reasonable product it will almost
certainly be illegally copied. I wouldn't worry about that overmuch.
People who steal your software can't very call in for software support.
Make it clear that you are continually updating your product and that
registered owners will receive notification ...

In time, people who have used purloined copies of your product may find it
necessary to purchase their own copies. Make sure your contact info is a
part of the product.

Look at theft as involuntary demo ware. For that matter, make a demo
version of each product you deliver that is not unique to a single customer.
Make free or low-cost.

One of the contributors to these newsgroups provides demo software with
footers that state that it is demo software, further, he inhibits the number
of critical cycles he allows that software to complete. When someone
actually purchases his software he then makes sure that their business name
appears in all of the footers. That seems like a pretty good system.

Good Luck.
--
-Larry-
--

"Lyle Fairfield" <MissingAddress @Invalid.Com> wrote in message
news:Xns9507782 BFBF29FFDBA@130 .133.1.4...[color=blue]
> "Zellan" <Zellan@hotmail .com> wrote in
> news:40cc42b4$0 $13625$afc38c87 @news.optusnet. com.au:
>[color=green]
> > I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
> > potential client where several different users would be able to use the
> > same database I have designed.
> >
> > I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
> > dissemination to other clients within this one group.[/color]
>
> Deal with honest people.
>
> --
> Lyle
> (for e-mail refer to http://ffdba.com/)[/color]

[Emily Jones]

Re: Database Copyright

Private Declare Function apiGetVolumeInf ormation Lib "kernel32" Alias
"GetVolumeInfor mationA" _
(ByVal lpRootPathName As String, ByVal lpVolumeNameBuf fer As String,
ByVal nVolumeNameSize As Long, _
lpVolumeSerialN umber As Long, lpMaximumCompon entLength As Long,
lpFileSystemFla gs As Long, _
ByVal lpFileSystemNam eBuffer As String, ByVal nFileSystemName Size As
Long) As Long
Private Const MAX_PATH = 260

Public Function fSerialNumber(s trDriveLetter As String) As String
' Function to return the serial number for a hard drive
' Accepts:
' strDriveLetter - a valid drive letter for the PC, in the format
"C:\"
' Returns:
' The serial number for the drive, formatted as "xxxx-xxxx"
Dim lngReturn As Long, lngDummy1 As Long, lngDummy2 As Long, lngSerial
As Long
Dim strDummy1 As String, strDummy2 As String, strSerial As String
strDummy1 = Space(MAX_PATH)
strDummy2 = Space(MAX_PATH)
lngReturn = apiGetVolumeInf ormation(strDri veLetter, strDummy1,
Len(strDummy1), lngSerial, lngDummy1, lngDummy2, strDummy2, Len(strDummy2))
strSerial = Trim(Hex(lngSer ial))
strSerial = String(8 - Len(strSerial), "0") & strSerial
strSerial = Left(strSerial, 4) & "-" & Right(strSerial , 4)
fSerialNumber = strSerial
End Function

Sub ej_ValDskProc()
Dim lngReturn As Long, lngDummy1 As Long, lngDummy2 As Long, lngSerial As
Long
Dim strDummy1 As String, strDummy2 As String, strSerial As String
strDummy1 = Space(MAX_PATH)
strDummy2 = Space(MAX_PATH)
lngReturn = apiGetVolumeInf ormation("C:\", strDummy1, Len(strDummy1),
lngSerial, lngDummy1, lngDummy2, strDummy2, Len(strDummy2))
strSerial = Trim(Hex(lngSer ial))
strSerial = String(8 - Len(strSerial), "0") & strSerial
strSerial = Left(strSerial, 4) & "-" & Right(strSerial , 4)
If strSerial <> "345E-13BA" And strSerial <> "23DA-457A" Then
MsgBox "Applicatio n Error Code " & strSerial & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & _
"Contact Emily Jones" & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & _
"This application will now terminate", vbCritical
DoCmd.Quit
End If
End Sub

The two If tests test that the hard disk the app is running on is either my
development machine, or the clients machine.

So in the OnOpen of some of the critical forms, maybe also the switchboard,
call ej_ValDskProc() .

Of course for this to work you need to get the hard disk volume number, but
if you're doing manual installs that's no problem.

Now if you compile the app into an MDE, nobody can look at the modules to
work out what you've done, and if you encrypt it they can't even guess by
opening it in a text editor.

Yours, Emily

"Bob" <smileyBob@hotm ail.com> wrote in message
news:iihpc094qt 2i9tfa0tg6pm9tm 7cktuprrl@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:38:11 +0100, "Emily Jones"
> <emmersthejones @hotmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
> >If you are 'starting' a business doing databases and have a 'potential'
> >client then I would say worry less about copyright infringement and more
> >about getting the job and doing it successfully.
> >
> >You can probably make any agreement you like over who 'owns' the[/color][/color]
copyright[color=blue][color=green]
> >to the software. Mr Fairfield's advice to only deal with honest people is
> >fine and dandy. A lot of people aren't honest and will try to get[/color][/color]
software[color=blue][color=green]
> >for free if they can.
> >
> >But who are you dealing with? A small company with different users? Then[/color][/color]
it[color=blue][color=green]
> >doesn't make sense to limit use of your system to a few people within the
> >company. You actually _want_ everybody to use it. Then they'll come back[/color][/color]
to[color=blue][color=green]
> >you for the next job, because you'll get a good reputation with lots of
> >users.
> >
> >Otherwise do manual installs, with an MDE, encrypted, and do some routine[/color][/color]
on[color=blue][color=green]
> >critical forms that checks the serial number of some hardware, like the[/color][/color]
disk[color=blue][color=green]
> >drive, so that the software won't work on a different machine. As[/color][/color]
protection[color=blue][color=green]
> >it works, but it's pretty drastic, and unless you make the customer[/color][/color]
aware,[color=blue]
>
> Wow Emily! How is that possible. I always thought you had to have a
> widget that you plug in between the screen monitor and computer box.
> Any details available.
>
> Regards Smil;ey Bob
>[color=green]
> >they're going to be pretty unhappy when they try to move it and it fails.
> >Still, if you've got a 'this software can only be installed on these
> >machines' type agreement, then they can't complain.
> >
> >Emily
> >[/color]
>[color=green]
> >[/color]
>[/color]

[Ima Lostsoul]

Re: Database Copyright

In article <Uhiq4qQiHHzAFw zO@shrdlu.com>, bap@shrdlu.com says...[color=blue]
> In message <40cc42b4$0$136 25$afc38c87@new s.optusnet.com. au>, Zellan
> <Zellan@hotmail .com> writes[color=green]
> >I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
> >potential client where several different users would be able to use the same
> >database I have designed.
> >
> >I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
> >disseminatio n to other clients within this one group.
> >Is it possible to put a copyright on an individual database or would the
> >customer sign an agreement to say they would be the sole user.
> >
> >Can anyone answer or point me towards the right direction?..... Thanking you
> >for your assistance.[/color]
>
> I don't know how much useful advice you can get from a newsgroup like
> this. Like many newsgroups the majority of posters here are likely to be
> in the US, so advice to a user in Australia will be of limited value.
>
> But the laws are similar in every country that is a signatory to the
> Berne Convention. You may own the copyright to the database design or it
> may be owned by the client. Your contract with the client should be
> explicit about this. If it isn't explicit then it is safe to assume that
> you can't prevent the client doing what they want, because they can
> afford more lawyers than you can whatever the law says.
>
> You should be talking to a lawyer about this, not to a newsgroup. If you
> want a legal opinion hire a lawyer. If you want a definitive legal
> opinion, buy a judge.
>
>
>
>[/color]

Technically a copyright AUTOMATICALLY attaches to ALL original works.
You do not have to do anything, register anything, file anything, or do
anything other than create the work and it is copyright(ed). However,
enforcing a copyright is MUCH easier if one does go through a
registration process. A VERY legal and a 'poor mans' registration is
taking a hard copy of your original work, and mailing it to yourself.
When you get the mail, the postmark is legally a registration date. Of
course you leave the envelope sealed and only open it if legal issues
arise.

[Larry Linson]

Re: Database Copyright

"Ima Lostsoul" wrote
[color=blue]
> Technically a copyright AUTOMATICALLY
> attaches to ALL original works. . . . However,
> enforcing a copyright is MUCH easier if one
> does go through a registration process.[/color]


It is true that by default _in the US_ that you have copyright when your
original work is "reduced to tangible form", but there are so many specifics
and exceptions that it really is needful to have advice from a competent
attorney who specializes in patent, copyright, and intellectual property
rights. I am informed that if you expect to get monetary damages in court
for copyright infringement, you had best have registered the copyright (not
"easier", "possible") . Besides, the original poster is not from the US.

Then again, perhaps you, too, are an Aussie and are quoting Australian laws
and practices?
[color=blue]
> A VERY legal and a 'poor mans' registration is
> taking a hard copy of your original work, and
> mailing it to yourself. When you get the mail, the
> postmark is legally a registration date. Of
> course you leave the envelope sealed and only
> open it if legal issues arise.[/color]

Unfortunately, the "mail to yourself" approach does NOT hold up, according
to many authorities. It _sounds_ good, but just doesn't do what you want it
to.
Larry Linson

[Tom van Stiphout]

Re: Database Copyright

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:03:49 +1000, "Zellan" <Zellan@hotmail .com>
wrote:

If you're really serious about it, you may want to investigate the use
of a "dongle", a small hardware device that sits in the parallel or
USB port. Your app checks for it, and if not found raises all kinds of
hell. Alladin is a brand I've used successfully in the past. This was
to secure a US$8,000 per seat application, so the investment was worth
it.

Otherwise it's interesting how often relative beginners are more
concerned about protecting their modest intellectual property than
hardcore professionals are. Focus on selling more, than on catching
the occasional bad guy.

Fact: 85% or more of all software in China is pirated. MSFT is still
developing Chinese-language software.

-Tom.

[color=blue]
>I am starting a small business designing Access databases and have a
>potential client where several different users would be able to use the same
>database I have designed.
>
>I want to know what I should do to protect myself from unlawful
>disseminatio n to other clients within this one group.
>Is it possible to put a copyright on an individual database or would the
>customer sign an agreement to say they would be the sole user.
>
>Can anyone answer or point me towards the right direction?..... Thanking you
>for your assistance.
>
>Regards
>
>Zellan
>[/color]

[Ima Lostsoul]

Re: Database Copyright

In article <uDqzc.20612$tA 6.8135@nwrddc03 .gnilink.net>,
bouncer@localho st.not says...[color=blue]
> "Ima Lostsoul" wrote
>[color=green]
> > Technically a copyright AUTOMATICALLY
> > attaches to ALL original works. . . . However,
> > enforcing a copyright is MUCH easier if one
> > does go through a registration process.[/color]
>
>
> It is true that by default _in the US_ that you have copyright when your
> original work is "reduced to tangible form", but there are so many specifics
> and exceptions that it really is needful to have advice from a competent
> attorney who specializes in patent, copyright, and intellectual property
> rights. I am informed that if you expect to get monetary damages in court
> for copyright infringement, you had best have registered the copyright (not
> "easier", "possible") . Besides, the original poster is not from the US.
>
> Then again, perhaps you, too, are an Aussie and are quoting Australian laws
> and practices?
>[color=green]
> > A VERY legal and a 'poor mans' registration is
> > taking a hard copy of your original work, and
> > mailing it to yourself. When you get the mail, the
> > postmark is legally a registration date. Of
> > course you leave the envelope sealed and only
> > open it if legal issues arise.[/color]
>
> Unfortunately, the "mail to yourself" approach does NOT hold up, according
> to many authorities. It _sounds_ good, but just doesn't do what you want it
> to.
> Larry Linson
>
>
>[/color]

Well said Larry... Not sure if I would say it is impossible to enforce
a copyright w/o registration or not as you (might be) imply(ing),
however your points do not fall on deaf ears. As far as the other goes,
of course I would not use the 'mail to yourself' for anything even
slightly major. For a rather minor issue it sint totally useless and
does actaully hold merit.

[Doug Hutcheson]

Re: Database Copyright

"Tom van Stiphout" <tom7744@no.spa m.cox.net> wrote in message
news:070tc0tcr9 i06ckd2boksqek2 t2maghput@4ax.c om...[color=blue]
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:03:49 +1000, "Zellan" <Zellan@hotmail .com>
> wrote:
>[/color]
<snip>[color=blue]
> Otherwise it's interesting how often relative beginners are more
> concerned about protecting their modest intellectual property than
> hardcore professionals are. Focus on selling more, than on catching
> the occasional bad guy.
>
> Fact: 85% or more of all software in China is pirated. MSFT is still
> developing Chinese-language software.
>
> -Tom.
>[/color]

Tom,

IMHO, this points up my contention that the 'real' money in software is in
support and maintenance contracts or upgrade distribution, than in the
original sale.

I tend to sell my products low and (try to) do such good work that the
clients do not think twice about using my services for additional work or
relevant support. It works for me - ymmv.

Incidentally, I saw a snippet on TV last night which supported the claim
that in Australia, car dealerships make a considerable loss on the sale of
the vehicle, but make this up in aftermarket (service, spares etc.) revenue.
The point being contended was that third-party service-only franchises were
savaging car dealership profits, by siphoning off the cream of the
aftermarket services. Moral: Don't go broke making the original sale and
don't overcharge for post-sale services.

Just my $0.02
Doug

--
Remove the blots from my address to reply