Good Question???!!

[Goody]

What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have ..NETframework2 ?? If they're trying to sell their products and they know that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded (Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Andersson?=]

Re: Good Question???!!

Goody wrote:

What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have
.NETframework2? ? If they're trying to sell their products and they know
that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original
designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded
(Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their
products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------
>

The same as programmers using VB1, VB2, VB3, VB4, VB5 and VB6 did...
They either include the runtime library with the installation, or expect
the user to download and install it if it's not already installed.

Almost every high level language uses a runtime library that has to be
installed on the machine, this is nothing that is new to the .NET
framework. Just the other day I had to find a C++ runtime library to be
able to install a Microsoft program.

One advantage with the .NET library is that all .NET languages uses the
same library, so you don't have to download one runtime library for each
programming language.

--
Göran Andersson
_____

http://www.guffa.com

[kimiraikkonen]

Re: Good Question???!!

On Aug 10, 1:27 pm, "Goody" <fa...@alphalin k.com.auwrote:

What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have .NETframework2? ? If they're trying to sell their products and they know that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded (Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------

.NET framework can be pointed as a prerequisite for your .NET
application using ClickOnce or a 3rd party installer. As Göran
mentioned, you need to install C++ runtime libraries to make C++
powered applications work, like that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

Plus, runtime libraries of VB6 and lower are included within Windows
operating systems by default(For example, VB6's runtime libraries are
supposed to be present on Windows 2000 and later ones by default.)

Today, AFAIK, .NET comes default within Windows Vista which doesn't
force users to install .NET framework manually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_.NET#Microsoft_.NET

Also, software companies can include .NET framework setup file into
application package by pointing in a readme file or on an autorun
screen.


Onur Güzel

[mayayana]

Re: Good Question???!!

>
What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have
..NETframework2 ?? If they're trying to sell their products and they know that
some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original designed
programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded (Redistributabl e
version), at the same time they want to sell their products.
So what do these programmers do?

>

They don't write their software in a language
that requires a 70+ MB runtime if they intend to
distribute it any further than within the confines
of a corporate intranet.

[Fares]

Re: Good Question???!!

I am talking about Visual Basic 2005, and programmers can not include the
"Setup" of .NETframework2 within their original program, otherwise they
Violate the Copyright Law of the Microsoft.
Please Can any one tell me how I install the library of visual basic 2005?
I am beginner.
Thanks.
=============== =========
"kimiraikko nen" <kimiraikkonen8 5@gmail.comwrot e in message
news:26470ee4-3d20-4d9c-bfa2-d07e3f0a8999@r6 6g2000hsg.googl egroups.com...
On Aug 10, 1:27 pm, "Goody" <fa...@alphalin k.com.auwrote:

What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have
.NETframework2? ? If they're trying to sell their products and they know
that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original
designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded
(Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their
products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------

..NET framework can be pointed as a prerequisite for your .NET
application using ClickOnce or a 3rd party installer. As Göran
mentioned, you need to install C++ runtime libraries to make C++
powered applications work, like that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

Plus, runtime libraries of VB6 and lower are included within Windows
operating systems by default(For example, VB6's runtime libraries are
supposed to be present on Windows 2000 and later ones by default.)

Today, AFAIK, .NET comes default within Windows Vista which doesn't
force users to install .NET framework manually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_.NET#Microsoft_.NET

Also, software companies can include .NET framework setup file into
application package by pointing in a readme file or on an autorun
screen.


Onur Güzel

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Re: Good Question???!!

Goody,

We have seen this question askes 1000 times in these dotNet newsgroups, so what is "Good" about it.

It is one of the two most knowed messages used by trolls.

The other one is:
"What is better C# or VB.Net"

Cor


"Goody" <fares@alphalin k.com.auschreef in bericht news:489ec28f@n ews.comindico.c om.au...
What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have ..NETframework2 ?? If they're trying to sell their products and they know that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded (Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------

[kimiraikkonen]

Re: Good Question???!!

On Aug 10, 5:11 pm, "Fares" <fa...@alphalin k.com.auwrote:

I am talking about Visual Basic 2005, and programmers can not include the
"Setup" of .NETframework2 within their original program, otherwise they
Violate the Copyright Law of the Microsoft.
Please Can any one tell me how I install the library of visual basic 2005?
I am beginner.
Thanks.
=============== ========="kimir aikkonen" <kimiraikkone.. .@gmail.comwrot e in message
>
news:26470ee4-3d20-4d9c-bfa2-d07e3f0a8999@r6 6g2000hsg.googl egroups.com...
On Aug 10, 1:27 pm, "Goody" <fa...@alphalin k.com.auwrote:
>

What Programmers Do ? When:
They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have
.NETframework2? ? If they're trying to sell their products and they know
that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original
designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded
(Redistributabl e version), at the same time they want to sell their
products.
So what do these programmers do?
Thank all.
Goody
---------------------------------------------------------------

>
.NET framework can be pointed as a prerequisite for your .NET
application using ClickOnce or a 3rd party installer. As Göran
mentioned, you need to install C++ runtime libraries to make C++
powered applications work, like that:http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...D=32bc1bee-a3f...
>
Plus, runtime libraries of VB6 and lower are included within Windows
operating systems by default(For example, VB6's runtime libraries are
supposed to be present on Windows 2000 and later ones by default.)
>
Today, AFAIK, .NET comes default within Windows Vista which doesn't
force users to install .NET framework manually.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microso...Microsoft_.NET
>
Also, software companies can include .NET framework setup file into
application package by pointing in a readme file or on an autorun
screen.
>
Onur Güzel

I just wanted to point out that other languages also require runtime
libraries like "Visual Basic", and these runtime libraries are usually
included since old versions of Windows by default, so it's expected.
Since .NET framework is included in newer versions of Windows like
Vista, or if it's installed for once by user, users won't have to
install framework(2 or other) again and again to run .NET-powered
applications.

If you use ClickOnce to publish and install your .NET application, it
doesn't mean of any violation of any term, it's a prerequisite. See
project properties(righ t click your project in solution explorer-

>Properties) -Publish -Prerequisite.

Hope it's clear,

Onur Güzel

[Family Tree Mike]

Re: Good Question???!!

Yes, you can distribute .Net with your application. I'm not sure where you
got the idea it is a copyright violation to distribute the framework. It is
freely downloadable from MS sites, and VS enables inclusion of it within a
setup project.

You need to create as setup project. As far as I know, you need to do this
with a purchased version of Visual Studio, not an Express version. In the
prerequisites for the installer project, you can select if the install
downloads the .Net from the internet, or bundles it in the installer.

"Fares" <fares@alphalin k.com.auwrote in message
news:489ef704@n ews.comindico.c om.au...

>I am talking about Visual Basic 2005, and programmers can not include the
>"Setup" of .NETframework2 within their original program, otherwise they
>Violate the Copyright Law of the Microsoft.
Please Can any one tell me how I install the library of visual basic 2005?
I am beginner.
Thanks.
=============== =========
"kimiraikko nen" <kimiraikkonen8 5@gmail.comwrot e in message
news:26470ee4-3d20-4d9c-bfa2-d07e3f0a8999@r6 6g2000hsg.googl egroups.com...
On Aug 10, 1:27 pm, "Goody" <fa...@alphalin k.com.auwrote:

>What Programmers Do ? When:
>They design a VB programs that only work on computers that have
>.NETframework2 ?? If they're trying to sell their products and they know
>that some users may have NO .NETframework program.
>They can not put this program(.NETfra mework2) within their original
>designed programs although the .NET framework2 is free downloaded
>(Redistributab le version), at the same time they want to sell their
>products.
>So what do these programmers do?
>Thank all.
>Goody
>---------------------------------------------------------------

>
.NET framework can be pointed as a prerequisite for your .NET
application using ClickOnce or a 3rd party installer. As Göran
mentioned, you need to install C++ runtime libraries to make C++
powered applications work, like that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
>
Plus, runtime libraries of VB6 and lower are included within Windows
operating systems by default(For example, VB6's runtime libraries are
supposed to be present on Windows 2000 and later ones by default.)
>
Today, AFAIK, .NET comes default within Windows Vista which doesn't
force users to install .NET framework manually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_.NET#Microsoft_.NET

>
Also, software companies can include .NET framework setup file into
application package by pointing in a readme file or on an autorun
screen.
>
>
Onur Güzel
>

[Brian Gideon]

Re: Good Question???!!

On Aug 10, 9:05 am, "mayayana" <mayaXXy...@rcX Xn.comwrote:

  They don't write their software in a language
that requires a 70+ MB runtime if they intend to
distribute it any further than within the confines
of a corporate intranet.

It's actually 23 MB. Create two packages. One will contain the .NET
Framework v2.0 runtime and the other will not. Allow users to choose
which package they want to download.

[mayayana]

Re: Good Question???!!

They don't write their software in a language
that requires a 70+ MB runtime if they intend to
distribute it any further than within the confines
of a corporate intranet.

>

It's actually 23 MB. Create two packages. One will contain the .NET
Framework v2.0 runtime and the other will not. Allow users to choose
which package they want to download.

>

23 MB zipped. 70+- on disk, not counting
the newer .Net 2+ additions. Either way you
look at it, even more so than Java, .Net is
not a tool for writing distributed software.

Even at 23MB you've effectively eliminated
nearly everyone in the world who's on dial-up.
23 minutes is about an hour and a half download
for them, on a good connection. You've also
eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
space when its competitors are typically 500KB
to 2MB.

[Brian Gideon]

Re: Good Question???!!

On Aug 11, 8:43 am, "mayayana" <mayaXXy...@rcX Xn.comwrote:

They don't write their software in a language
that requires a 70+ MB runtime if they intend to
distribute it any further than within the confines
of a corporate intranet.

>
It's actually 23 MB.  Create two packages.  One will contain the .NET
Framework v2.0 runtime and the other will not.  Allow users to choose
which package they want to download.
>
>
>
  23 MB zipped. 70+- on disk, not counting
the newer .Net 2+ additions. Either way you
look at it, even more so than Java, .Net is
not a tool for writing distributed software.
>
   Even at 23MB you've effectively eliminated
nearly everyone in the world who's on dial-up.
23 minutes is about an hour and a half download
for them, on a good connection. You've also
eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
space when its competitors are typically 500KB
to 2MB.

I'm not familiar with your audience's specific demographics, but it
sounds like a legitimate concern for you. For me <1% of the computers
fit into that category so it is a non-issue. I recommend choosing
another framework. MS C++ and old VB both have rather small
redistributable packages (~2 MB) and are already on the vast majority
of Windows installs.

[Alex Clark]

Re: Good Question???!!

23 MB zipped. 70+- on disk, not counting

the newer .Net 2+ additions. Either way you
look at it, even more so than Java, .Net is
not a tool for writing distributed software.

In my experiences it's been just fine for writing distributable software.
Ironically this was more of a problem back in the VB6 days when the majority
of people purchasing/downloading my software *were* on dialup and didn't
necessarily have the runtime libraries installed. Nowadays, most users
(according to the website stats) have at least .NET 1.1 installed on their
system - possibly installed as a prerequisite to some other piece of
software.

Even at 23MB you've effectively eliminated
nearly everyone in the world who's on dial-up.

The kind of software I'm selling gives users realtime access to online data,
so that probably eliminated all the dial-up users right away anyway. I
can't say that I've lost much sleep over that fact though, and most people
who want the software are on broadband anyway - that's just the target
demographic. From what I've seen, anyone who's still on dialup generally
isn't still on dialup by choice.

23 minutes is about an hour and a half download
for them, on a good connection.

Assuming they download it and don't acquire it via some other method. Pick
up a computer magazine with a free DVD of software on the cover and you can
often find it on that.

You've also
eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
space when its competitors are typically 500KB
to 2MB.

I've not found anyone at all bothered about something like that. Heck, 1TB
discs are very affordable nowadays, and you'd be hard pressed to even buy a
laptop with less than 80GB. If something like that is really a concern to
your users, then you're probably talking about people running some very
rickety legacy systems. My application requiring a one-off install of 75MB
worth of readily available free support libraries from MS (if they're not
already installed) isn't exactly a concern for me.

And even if it was, the new client framework profile is on the horizon which
is a far smaller version of the framework for desktops, trimming out
unnecessary fat which is only necessary to support hosting ASP.NET web
applications. I hear it's in the sub 5MB realm (maybe even smaller than
that) and the vast majority of .NET WinForms apps will run on it without
problem.

[Gillard]

Re: Good Question???!!

what is the problem??
Windows service pack is +-300MB
and millions of people download it !


the only thing I can say is that the .net framework SHOULD BE INCLUDED in
Windows Service pack

but I'm not sure they are interested about what I think


"Alex Clark" <quanta@noemail .noemailwrote in message
news:e4gYVuE$IH A.3656@TK2MSFTN GP03.phx.gbl...

> 23 MB zipped. 70+- on disk, not counting
>the newer .Net 2+ additions. Either way you
>look at it, even more so than Java, .Net is
>not a tool for writing distributed software.

>
In my experiences it's been just fine for writing distributable software.
Ironically this was more of a problem back in the VB6 days when the
majority of people purchasing/downloading my software *were* on dialup and
didn't necessarily have the runtime libraries installed. Nowadays, most
users (according to the website stats) have at least .NET 1.1 installed on
their system - possibly installed as a prerequisite to some other piece of
software.
>

> Even at 23MB you've effectively eliminated
>nearly everyone in the world who's on dial-up.

>
The kind of software I'm selling gives users realtime access to online
data, so that probably eliminated all the dial-up users right away anyway.
I can't say that I've lost much sleep over that fact though, and most
people who want the software are on broadband anyway - that's just the
target demographic. From what I've seen, anyone who's still on dialup
generally isn't still on dialup by choice.
>

>23 minutes is about an hour and a half download
>for them, on a good connection.

>
Assuming they download it and don't acquire it via some other method.
Pick up a computer magazine with a free DVD of software on the cover and
you can often find it on that.
>

>You've also
>eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
>a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
>space when its competitors are typically 500KB
>to 2MB.

>
I've not found anyone at all bothered about something like that. Heck,
1TB discs are very affordable nowadays, and you'd be hard pressed to even
buy a laptop with less than 80GB. If something like that is really a
concern to your users, then you're probably talking about people running
some very rickety legacy systems. My application requiring a one-off
install of 75MB worth of readily available free support libraries from MS
(if they're not already installed) isn't exactly a concern for me.
>
And even if it was, the new client framework profile is on the horizon
which is a far smaller version of the framework for desktops, trimming out
unnecessary fat which is only necessary to support hosting ASP.NET web
applications. I hear it's in the sub 5MB realm (maybe even smaller than
that) and the vast majority of .NET WinForms apps will run on it without
problem.
>
>
>

[mayayana]

Re: Good Question???!!

You've also

eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
space when its competitors are typically 500KB
to 2MB.

>
I've not found anyone at all bothered about something like that. Heck,

1TB

discs are very affordable nowadays, and you'd be hard pressed to even buy

a

laptop with less than 80GB. If something like that is really a concern to
your users, then you're probably talking about people running some very
rickety legacy systems.

Or maybe someone who just avoids unnecessary
bloat and security risks. Why have the Java runtime
installed if you don't really need any Java software?
Especially since there's always a risk of security issues.
Likewise with the .Net Frameworks:
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/0...dered-complete
ly-useless-by-new-exploit

It's lucky for you, I guess, that you never run into
anyone who's discerning about what they dump onto
their disk.
I think you're also right that many systems
already have the Framework installed, anyway. But
however you look at it -- even with the Windows Installer
ability to force-install the framework over the Internet
before the client knows "what hit them" -- a 25MB+-
runtime package is a potential problem for distributed
software.

And even if it was, the new client framework profile is on the horizon

which

is a far smaller version of the framework for desktops, trimming out
unnecessary fat which is only necessary to support hosting ASP.NET web
applications. I hear it's in the sub 5MB realm (maybe even smaller than
that) and the vast majority of .NET WinForms apps will run on it without
problem.
>

http://windowsclient.net/wpf/wpf35/wpf-intro-client-profile.aspx

26.5 MB download. It's only "far smaller" in relation
to the wildly bloated size of later downloads. (The
3.0 redist. download is about 50 MB. I'm guessing
that's about 200 MB on disk!)

You may be thinking of the Silverlight Flash-clone
support package.

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Re: Good Question???!!

Mayayana,

May I ask you what the size of your smallest non Net assembly (exe) is.

Cor


For a real program is with VB.Net
"mayayana" <mayaXXyana@rcX Xn.comschreef in bericht
news:O1SerdI$IH A.1148@TK2MSFTN GP02.phx.gbl...

You've also
eliminated anyone who doesn't want to install
a small software utility to require 75 MB of disk
space when its competitors are typically 500KB
to 2MB.

>>
>I've not found anyone at all bothered about something like that. Heck,

1TB

>discs are very affordable nowadays, and you'd be hard pressed to even buy

a

>laptop with less than 80GB. If something like that is really a concern
>to
>your users, then you're probably talking about people running some very
>rickety legacy systems.

>
Or maybe someone who just avoids unnecessary
bloat and security risks. Why have the Java runtime
installed if you don't really need any Java software?
Especially since there's always a risk of security issues.
Likewise with the .Net Frameworks:
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/0...dered-complete
ly-useless-by-new-exploit
>
It's lucky for you, I guess, that you never run into
anyone who's discerning about what they dump onto
their disk.
I think you're also right that many systems
already have the Framework installed, anyway. But
however you look at it -- even with the Windows Installer
ability to force-install the framework over the Internet
before the client knows "what hit them" -- a 25MB+-
runtime package is a potential problem for distributed
software.
>

>And even if it was, the new client framework profile is on the horizon

which

>is a far smaller version of the framework for desktops, trimming out
>unnecessary fat which is only necessary to support hosting ASP.NET web
>applications . I hear it's in the sub 5MB realm (maybe even smaller than
>that) and the vast majority of .NET WinForms apps will run on it without
>problem.
>>

>

http://windowsclient.net/wpf/wpf35/wpf-intro-client-profile.aspx

>
26.5 MB download. It's only "far smaller" in relation
to the wildly bloated size of later downloads. (The
3.0 redist. download is about 50 MB. I'm guessing
that's about 200 MB on disk!)
>
You may be thinking of the Silverlight Flash-clone
support package.
>
>