Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:15:19 -0600, rumours say that Ron Adam
<rrr@ronadam.co m> might have written:
[color=blue]
>jjcassidy@gmai l.com wrote:
>
>Cheese (or the lack of cheese) is never silly, Thus the slogan... "The
>power of cheese".
>
>Now if you want silliness, then the correct establishment for that is
>"The Ministry of Silly Walks". ;)[/color]

The Ministry was definitely a Cleese shop.
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best.
"Dear Paul,
please stop spamming us."
The Corinthians

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:[color=blue]
>
> since when is Microsoft a programming language ?[/color]

Well, to many a recruiter or middle-manager it almost is a kind of
programming language, given their often vague usage of that and other
product and technology names. But anyway, people who call themselves
"Java developers", for example, who respond to job adverts which read
"Java developers", and who might even surf over to python.org to check
out what this Python thing is all about, might well see the label
"developer" or "developers " and think, "That's me!" And, as if I'd
arranged it to make the point, on java.sun.com the main heading
reads...

Java.sun.com: The Source for Java Developers

I guess java.sun.com isn't just for Sun's internal Java development
team after all.

Paul

P.S. The issue is whether python.org is trying to be the kind of site
java.sun.com is, appealing to developers in general (ie. people who
aren't working on open source language runtime implementations ). Yes, I
know: what would non-developers be doing looking at a programming
language Web site? Well, the Java site touches on that as well, in a
brand promotion kind of way - do you remember "Python Powered"?

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On 3/16/06, Terry Hancock <hancock@anansi spaceworks.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> But the usual distinction (on any project web page) is
> "User" versus "Developer" .
>
> Who is a "user" of Python? That would be you, right? It
> would be fairly silly to have a page only for people who
> have programs written in Python that they use (they're
> *your program*'s users, not *python*'s users).
>
> "Developer" , in context, is clearly "one who *develops*
> python", not "one who *uses* python to develop programs".
>
> I don't see the ambiguity. I would be confused by the
> opposite usage.[/color]

After your long explanation, your POV makes some sense. However, no
one should be expected to read such an involved explanation before
understanding common terms.

I am a developer. Yes, I 'use' Python for my development work, but
that doesn't make me any less of a developer. A link for 'developers'
would make me think that it is something I should be interested in,
even if your long explanation was included next to the link (I
wouldn't be likely to read it - I *know* what a developer is).

--

# p.d.

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Paul Boddie wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are:
> >
> > http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html[/color]
>
> I was wondering when someone would mention the "developers , developers,
> developers" Ballmer song-and-dance incident: clearly, he isn't chanting
> about internal Microsoft project teams.[/color]

since when is Microsoft a programming language ?

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Harald Armin Massa wrote:[color=blue]
>
> one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are:
>
> http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html[/color]

I was wondering when someone would mention the "developers , developers,
developers" Ballmer song-and-dance incident: clearly, he isn't chanting
about internal Microsoft project teams.

Paul

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Tim,
[color=blue]
> For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
> not developing python.[/color]

one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are:

http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html

people developing with something. So, unless we get /F or BDFL to do an
even more astonishing dance proclaiming that people developing Python
are developers, not people developing WITH Python, I guess you are
quite right.

Harald

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Terry Hancock wrote:[color=blue]
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:22:09 -0700
> Steven Bethard <steven.bethard @gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100,
>>> Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to
>>>
>>>"developer s" and > "psf" to "foundation " (or use a title
>>>on that link).
>>>
>>>I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do
>>>about the python-dev link. As others have noted,
>>>"Developer s" is ambiguous about whether it's for people
>>>who develop in Python or who develop Python itself.
>>>"Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk,
>>>so maybe this is the best option.) "Developmen t Team"?[/color]
>>
>>+1 on Core Development. It's still ambiguous, but less
>>so. And I can't think of anything better. ;)[/color]
>
>
> Since I just said almost that independently on an earlier
> thread, I guess that makes me +1 on "Core Development" (or
> "Core Developers") myself.
>[/color]
Sold to the man in the blue hat!! It's on the server now...

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:22:09 -0700
Steven Bethard <steven.bethard @gmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> A.M. Kuchling wrote:[color=green]
> > On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100,
> > Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:[color=darkred]
> >> and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to[/color]
> >"developers " and > "psf" to "foundation " (or use a title
> >on that link).
> >
> > I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do
> > about the python-dev link. As others have noted,
> > "Developers " is ambiguous about whether it's for people
> > who develop in Python or who develop Python itself.
> > "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk,
> > so maybe this is the best option.) "Developmen t Team"?[/color]
>
> +1 on Core Development. It's still ambiguous, but less
> so. And I can't think of anything better. ;)[/color]

Since I just said almost that independently on an earlier
thread, I guess that makes me +1 on "Core Development" (or
"Core Developers") myself.

--
Terry Hancock (hancock@Anansi Spaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 11:58:05 -0500
"Peter Decker" <pydecker@gmail .com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Of course, you're straying so far from the original
> thought behind this thread, and that is that the Python
> website is using some terms differently than the majority
> of people who will eventually use the site would
> understand them. The number of people who are brilliant
> enough to actually contribute to the development of the
> Python language is miniscule compared to the potential
> number of programmers out there who could adopt Python as
> their language of choice, and thus consider themselves
> 'Python developers'.[/color]

But the usual distinction (on any project web page) is
"User" versus "Developer" .

Who is a "user" of Python? That would be you, right? It
would be fairly silly to have a page only for people who
have programs written in Python that they use (they're
*your program*'s users, not *python*'s users).

"Developer" , in context, is clearly "one who *develops*
python", not "one who *uses* python to develop programs".

I don't see the ambiguity. I would be confused by the
opposite usage.

However, what you are complaining of is similar to the
situation with Zope, where "user" actually does have a sane
interpretation (basically "designer" or "scripter") , while a
"developer" is someone working on the Zope core. People who
"develop using Zope" are (still, I think) underrepresente d
-- there never was a "product developer" or "component
developer" mailing list, I don't think.

In that context, some people use a term like "Core
Developer". It seems a little redundant to me, but perhaps
it would be less ambiguous?

--
Terry Hancock (hancock@Anansi Spaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers--Gratuitousself-quote

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/0150222

Customer: Well, then, have you got any Venezuelan Beaver Cheese?
Owner: Sir, this is a self-respecting establishment. I shall thank you
not to imply we should traffic in VB, much less, even mention the foul
product.

Props,
Chris

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[color=blue]
>A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
>
>[color=green]
>>I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
>>python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers " is ambiguous
>>about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
>>Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
>>maybe this is the best option.)
>>[/color]
>
>"core development" is fine with me.
>
></F>
>
>
>
>[/color]
forgot the link..

http://psf.pollenation.net/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/attachment/ticket/47/python-amends-2.png

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
[color=blue]
>A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>
>
>[color=green]
>>I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
>>python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers " is ambiguous
>>about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
>>Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
>>maybe this is the best option.)
>>
>>[/color]
>
>"core development" is fine with me.
>
></F>
>
>
>[/color]

I've tried this out on a test page and I think it works well.. I've also
removed a couple of bits from the left hand nav and moved the style
sheet switcher elsewhere (it probably should be in the help section). I
think the left hand nav is a lot clearer if kept simple.

Tim Parkin

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
[color=blue]
> I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
> python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers " is ambiguous
> about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
> Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
> maybe this is the best option.)[/color]

back in the old days, python.org used "core developers" ;-)

"core development" is fine with me.

</F>

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

A.M. Kuchling wrote:[color=blue]
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100,
> Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:[color=green]
>> and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers " and
>> "psf" to "foundation " (or use a title on that link).[/color]
>
> I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
> python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers " is ambiguous
> about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
> Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
> maybe this is the best option.) "Developmen t Team"?[/color]

+1 on Core Development. It's still ambiguous, but less so. And I can't
think of anything better. ;)

STeVe

Re: Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:25:19 +0100,
Fredrik Lundh <fredrik@python ware.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers " and
> "psf" to "foundation " (or use a title on that link).[/color]

I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers " is ambiguous
about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
maybe this is the best option.) "Developmen t Team"?

--amk