What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

[Max M]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:[color=blue]
> Max M wrote:[color=green]
>>
>>I just wonder what the difference is between .net, Mono and Parrot?
>>
>>To me they all seem to pretty similar goals.[/color]
>
> .NET and Mono _are_ pretty much the same - Mono is an open-source
> reimplementatio n of the .NET framework.[/color]

Yes, I know that. But know that is both .net and mono, why parrot?

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/

IT's Mad Science

[Wilk]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Max M <maxm@mxm.dk> writes:
[color=blue]
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:[color=green]
>> Max M wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>I just wonder what the difference is between .net, Mono and Parrot?
>>>
>>>To me they all seem to pretty similar goals.[/color]
>> .NET and Mono _are_ pretty much the same - Mono is an open-source
>> reimplementatio n of the .NET framework.[/color]
>
> Yes, I know that. But know that is both .net and mono, why parrot?[/color]

It was java, why .net and mono...
And finaly, there is python, why java ;-) ?

--
Wilk - http://flibuste.net

[Alex Martelli]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Max M <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Reinhold Birkenfeld wrote:[color=green]
> > Max M wrote:[color=darkred]
> >>
> >>I just wonder what the difference is between .net, Mono and Parrot?
> >>
> >>To me they all seem to pretty similar goals.[/color]
> >
> > .NET and Mono _are_ pretty much the same - Mono is an open-source
> > reimplementatio n of the .NET framework.[/color]
>
> Yes, I know that. But know that is both .net and mono, why parrot?[/color]

Parrot is a completely different and disjoint virtual machine wrt
Mono/dotNet, optimized to run several VHLLs, including Perl (both 5 and
6) and others, and without any of the constraints that Mono has because
of the decision to follow Microsoft's CRL standard.

There are, of course, several reasons for the Parrot people to do their
own VM rather than accept Microsoft's design (or Sun's, for that
matter). I don't understand your "why" question...!


Alex

[Alex Martelli]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Wilk <wilkSPAM@OUTfl ibuste.net> wrote:
...[color=blue][color=green]
> > Yes, I know that. But know that is both .net and mono, why parrot?[/color]
>
> It was java, why .net and mono...
> And finaly, there is python, why java ;-) ?[/color]

Sun had its own motivations, of course -- for example, they wanted C-ish
syntax and compiletime typing. That's generally the kind of motivations
for each new language invention -- a desire for a different mix of
features from the existing ones.

New VMs generally have different motivations, tied to performance more
than to features per se. Though I could see wanting a new VM for such
reasons as supporting some new and different threading model, say.


Alex

[Carl Banks]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam@wolke7.n et> wrote in message news:<2uh4j7F2a 86uqU1@uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> Hello,
>
> another Perl/Python question: the subject says it all.
>
> Perl is going to change dramatically to become a more powerful and
> easier to (read|write) language.
>
> Is Python taking a similar step (-> Python 3) some time in the near future?[/color]

When Perl 6 arrives, Python's answer to it will be so profound and so
amazing that it will utterly meet and defeat the challenge; it will
put all pitiful hopes of Perl 6 to rest; it will expose Perl for the
fraud that it is.

What will this answer be?

To do nothing.


--
CARL BANKS

[Max M]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Alex Martelli wrote:
[color=blue]
> There are, of course, several reasons for the Parrot people to do their
> own VM rather than accept Microsoft's design (or Sun's, for that
> matter). I don't understand your "why" question...![/color]

"Why" as in "what is the difference, and the advantage of parrot", not
as in "Why do they want to do something as stupid"

All the virtual machines seems to boost the same advantages for all the
languages.

So I just wondered if anybody had a few practical examples of the
difference, and why I should get excited over Parrot.

So far, it seems like a better idea to get Python running on .net/mono,
as I cannot seem to get around the Windows platform in my professional
work.

However, I can easily get around Perl, so if Python on Parrot dosn't
have a big advantage it is hard to get excited about.

Making Python run faster is not that big a deal to me.

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/

IT's Mad Science

[Nick Craig-Wood]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam@wolke7.n et> wrote:[color=blue]
> Perl is going to change dramatically to become a more powerful and
> easier to (read|write) language.[/color]

Actually Perl6 is one of my major reasons for retooling my brain in
Python. I've been using perl for a long time - I have 3 revisions of
programming perl on my bookshelf. I first learnt Perl4. Perl5 seemed
a reasonable way to cludge on some OO stuff etc without completely
redoing the language. However Perl6 completely misses the target as
far as I am concerned. Its too byzantine, too big and just tries to
be too clever. Yes its fun to have a programming language you can
write techno-puns in (and yes I've enjoyed that part of perl too).
However I found through personal experience that TIMTOWDI isn't good
for large projects and I don't see Perl6 making this better.

To sum up, Perl6 made a perfect opportunity for me to migrate to
Python!

--
Nick Craig-Wood <nick@craig-wood.com> -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick

[Josiah Carlson]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?


Nick Craig-Wood <nick@craig-wood.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> To sum up, Perl6 made a perfect opportunity for me to migrate to
> Python![/color]

That is my vote for Quote of the Week.

- Josiah

[Roy Smith]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Nick Craig-Wood <nick@craig-wood.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> Perl5 seemed a reasonable way to cludge on some OO stuff etc without
> completely redoing the language.[/color]

I would hardly call perl's OO stuff "reasonable ". A cludge, for sure.
But I think reasonable would be stretching it. Anyway, the {}-> syntax
looks more like a smiley face to me than a programming language
construct.

[John Roth]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?


"Max M" <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote in message
news:4184fa72$0 $226$edfadb0f@d read12.news.tel e.dk...[color=blue]
> Alex Martelli wrote:
>[color=green]
>> There are, of course, several reasons for the Parrot people to do their
>> own VM rather than accept Microsoft's design (or Sun's, for that
>> matter). I don't understand your "why" question...![/color]
>
> "Why" as in "what is the difference, and the advantage of parrot", not as
> in "Why do they want to do something as stupid"
>
> All the virtual machines seems to boost the same advantages for all the
> languages.[/color]

Actually, they don't. Jython runs at about 1/3rd the speed as CPython.
I'm surprised that IronPython runs as fast as it does, although Microsoft's
attitude at making the CLR a multi-language platform (as distinct from
Sun's deliberate direction to make the JVM a single-language
platform) may be part of the difference.

Given that nobody in the Perl camp is going to spend more than
a few chuckles at the idea of tying Perl 6 to a proprietary Microsoft
product, and the proven poor performance of the JVM for
dynamic languages, they really didn't have much of a choice in
rewriting their already existing virtual machine.
[color=blue]
> So I just wondered if anybody had a few practical examples of the
> difference, and why I should get excited over Parrot.[/color]

Parrot was originally intended to run both Perl 6 and Perl 5. Adding
Python was an afterthought, and somewhat a consequence of an
April Fools joke. Some people think it still is.
[color=blue]
> So far, it seems like a better idea to get Python running on .net/mono, as
> I cannot seem to get around the Windows platform in my professional work.[/color]

Shrug. I cannot get excited about a proprietary Microsoft platform.
If anyone wants to port IronPython to Mono, I suspect the path is
clear (although maybe not - I don't know the license for that.)

John Roth
[color=blue]
>
> --
>
> hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark
>
> http://www.mxm.dk/
> IT's Mad Science[/color]

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

> Parrot was originally intended to run both Perl 6 and Perl 5. Adding[color=blue]
> Python was an afterthought, and somewhat a consequence of an
> April Fools joke. Some people think it still is.[/color]

People have also been working on running PHP on Parrot, a Forth-like
language is reimplemented on Parrot, and Parrot developers are taking
Ruby into account as well. I don't know how much of an afterthought
Python-on-Parrot was, but it's certainly not a minor subject right now.

Regards,

Dirkjan

[Jon Perez]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

A.M. Kuchling wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Is Python taking a similar step (-> Python 3) some time in the near future?[/color]
>
>
> The list of features for Python 3000 is described in PEP 3000,
> appropriately enough:
>
> http://www.python.org/peps/pep-3000.html
>
> Most of the suggested changes remove redundancy, such as removing
> now-unneeded built-in functions and language features.[/color]

Which I heartily concur with as being what should be one of
the primary goals...

TIMTOWTDI and ad hoc feature development are exactly what
makes Perl source code so unwieldy and inelegant.

[Y2KYZFR1]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Reinhold Birkenfeld <reinhold-birkenfeld-nospam@wolke7.n et> wrote in message news:<2uh4j7F2a 86uqU1@uni-berlin.de>...[color=blue]
> Hello,
>
> another Perl/Python question: the subject says it all.
>
> Perl is going to change dramatically to become a more powerful and
> easier to (read|write) language.
>
> Is Python taking a similar step (-> Python 3) some time in the near future?
>
> Reinhold[/color]

nice troll bait . . .

Python has always been the most READABLE and WRITABLE language, and
will continue to be extremely MAINTANCE friendly.

Perl has always been a WRITE only, MAINTANCE nightmare language. For
MANY reasons.
Nothing in the Perl 6 docs leads me to believe that it will be any
less cryptic and obfuscated and propeller head appealing than 5. More
complicated if anything.

[gabriele renzi]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Dirkjan Ochtman ha scritto:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Parrot was originally intended to run both Perl 6 and Perl 5. Adding
>> Python was an afterthought, and somewhat a consequence of an
>> April Fools joke. Some people think it still is.[/color]
>
>
> People have also been working on running PHP on Parrot, a Forth-like
> language is reimplemented on Parrot, and Parrot developers are taking
> Ruby into account as well. I don't know how much of an afterthought
> Python-on-Parrot was, but it's certainly not a minor subject right now.[/color]

don't forget that they can run brainf**k :)

Anyway, an interesting reading on the subject is the blog from dan sugalski

https://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog

especially when he goes deep in how to work out stuff like 'how to call
finalizers in languages that have totally different concepts of it'

[Peter Maas]

Re: What is Python's answer to Perl 6?

Jeremy Bowers schrieb:[color=blue]
> It is trivial to make something that implements a subset of the language
> run faster than something that implements the entire language.
>
> This is why while I am optimistic and hopeful, I don't consider current
> running speeds to be evidence that they will win.[/color]

To expect someone to fail who wants to reimplement a faster Python fulfils
my definition of pessimism. ;)

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas, M+R Infosysteme, D-52070 Aachen, Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0 BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\ n'.decode('base 64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------